Further to the posts below about the BBC’s erroneous reporting, they have at last quietly published an item, BBC apologises over Iraqi figures, on their hidden away Newswatch and Notes and Corrections pages (I don’t know why they have two slightly different ‘error correction’ pages).
They have also replaced the link on the Panorama pages to Iraq data ‘includes rebel deaths’ with the even more anodyne Iraq Health Ministry Figures. The difference between the two pages? The original page contains the “The BBC regrets mistakes in its published and broadcast reports” apology up front, the replacement page omits any form of apology and adds a lot of obfuscatory blather. Seems like today is another good day for burying bad news.
And the stealth edit? In my post below I mentioned how the BBC’s erroneous reports were destined to become established ‘facts’ (at least for ignorant journalists and leftie axe-grinders), citing an example already on the BBC itself – Killings hit run-up to Iraq vote, which included the statement “Casualty figures obtained by the BBC suggest coalition and Iraqi forces may be responsible for up to 60% of conflict-related civilian deaths in Iraq”. But lo, look again – that statement is no longer there – now you see it, now you don’t!
Once more Google’s cache confirms the BBC’s sleazy stealth editing – the same page, Killings hit run-up to Iraq vote, is there in Google’s cache, exactly the same except for the inclusion of the BBC’s egregious error in the cached copy, both with the same timestamp – Saturday, 29 January, 2005, 05:53 GMT. Shameful stealth editing dishonesty – yet again.
I’ve e-mailed to michaelmoore.com the Beeb’s apology over Iraqi death figures that he initially jumped all over.
I wonder if he/they will publish a correction?
Michael
MM hasn’t yet apologised for any one of a huge number of lies he’s peddled, I doubt he’ll start now. As in the past he’ll quietly drop the offending page from his site.
As for the BBC’s apology, they can’t even be truthful in that:
“The BBC reported the figures as suggesting that coalition and Iraqi forces could be responsible for up to 60% of conflict-related civilian deaths in Iraq.”
“However, the Iraqi Ministry of Health then clarified that the figures included not just civilians, but also insurgents and Iraqi security forces. And it said that the phrase “military operations” referred to Iraqis killed by insurgents as well as coalition or Iraqi forces.”
“The ministry said the BBC had misinterpreted the figures.”
I can see one lie and one less than truthful statement in that.
Well, they’ve gone back to their usual false sensationalism when they “screw the pooch”, and are reporting heavily on Michael Jackson’s law-capades. By the way, the very same story is a deceased parrot here in the U.S. This morning it came up *last* on the ABC radio ‘top of the hour’ news.
Right after a report on *good* weather.
How galling the Iraqi elections must be to the Left.
I think what really rankles the Guardianistas is that a right-wing American has done more for democracy in the world than they ever have.
The high tunrout is a huge “up yours” to Zarqawi and his Islamofascist thugs.
“I think what really rankles the Guardianistas is that a right-wing American has done more for democracy in the world than they ever have.”
Well said. Of course the (right wing) US has done more for democracy than the left ever has. Look at history. Twas ever thus. In essence I do not think the left cares about democracy at all. It’s the same with human rights. They are simply weapons to bash their opposition with when they are out of power. Put the left in power and they abuse human rights and democracy as much as they need to to so long as they get their own way.
Stealth editing
That’s why I use “Hello” to take a snapshot of the webpage. Sometimes the Google cache gets changed or deleted. With “Hello” you can have a picture of the webpage to keep.
“(…) right-wing American has done more for democracy in the world than they ever have.”
Several points for debate here:
If you take Stalin out of the democracy-smashing equation on the grounds he’s not actually a leftie (he’s only a leftie in as much as Hitler was, ideology used as a distraction from what actually rampant power-hungry totalitarianism, etc, etc) then I’m struggling to think on leftie democracy-squashing the ‘left’ has actually committed. Afghanistan (in the 80’s)? No. Cuba? No.
Then I think of America’s actions in S America (for starters):
Panama? 1 Puppet dictator = 1 democracy splatted.
Haiti? Aristide reinstalled by US funded coup = 1 attempt at democracy nipped in the bud.
Chile? Allende gets 60% of the popular vote, US gives Pinochet money and guns to sort that out = Allende dead, junta’s all round. Another Democracy bites the dust.
Nicaragua? The Sandinista’s where up for a bit of democracy = The US had other ideas.
I can go on if need be… d
Now I don’t want any ‘you’re just bashing the US’ crap. I sincerely hope that Iraq’s attempt at democracy is a successful one. But lets not forget our recent history, historically (speaking primarily the 70’s and 80’s) the US has only been a friend to democracy when self-interest dictates it (rightly or wrongly, cold war etc, etc.) and but even today I don’t see any motions tabled by Rummy to sort out Saudi Arabia, a country which is at about as far away from democracy as you can get in the modern age. Blaming the ‘left’ for obstructing democracy serves no purpose other obscure the wider picture.
TGORK: “If you take Stalin out of the democracy-smashing equation”
That’s a big IF to start with…
TGORK: “then I’m struggling to think on leftie democracy-squashing the ‘left’ has actually committed. Afghanistan (in the 80’s)? No. Cuba? No.”
Stuggling? Haven’t you read any of Oleg Gordievsky’s books or The Mitrohkin Archive or any of a range of authoritative works on the aims and actions of the KGB, the Soviets and their satellite states?
They were out to subvert the West (and the rest of the world) as far as they could, spreading their ideology, undermining sovereign nations as far as they could – whether it be the hard way (Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, etc. etc.) or the ‘soft’ way (trade union and political party entryism) etc. etc.
Sheesh. Didn’t you live through the cold war? Don’t you read much?
I’m staggered that you’re struggling with this notion. Rip off those blinkers – you know it makes sense 🙂
Er GORK have you not noticed that S. America is democratic nowadays? Reagan can take a good deal of credit for that, just as he can for standing up to the USSR and proving the left-wingers completely wrong.
Hungary 1956.
Enough said.
The left now says that all those regimes that ruled in such places as soviet Russia,Cambodia,or present day North Korea and cuba were/are not real communists/socialists but dictatorships.This in spite of the fact that the governments,police,border guards,civil service,armed forces,industry agriculture,education et al were all run by communists/socialists.I hope they do better in their fascist soviet european union
Czechloslovakia, 1946 AND 1968.
Enough said.
sorry,forget to mention the arts media,newspapers and the state broadcasting media which their plebs paid for wether they liked to or not
Has anyone noticed on the Newswatch site, people are asked for their views on BBC News? I’ve just given them an ear-bashing by email and am summoning my thoughts together for a second instalment. Such an opportunity. Not that they’ll take any notice.
theghostofredken wrote:
“Nicaragua? The Sandinista’s where up for a bit of democracy = The US had other ideas.”
Hardly. The US pressured the dictatorial FSLN (Sandinistas) into democracy. They won the first ‘election’ in 1984, no doubt assisted by being the only major party standing.
In 1990, the first multi-party election, the Sandinistas lost. They lost again in 1996. They lost again in 2001.
It so happens that democracy is alive and well in Nicaragua, with the FSLN now willing and peaceful participants. But perhaps it doesn’t count for you because the Nicaraguans, when given a choice, keep rejecting your favourites.
BTW, was it you complaining about grammar here recently? 😉
>If you take Stalin out of the democracy-smashing equation on the grounds he’s not actually a leftie
Stalin not a leftie? Nice try.
“Er GORK have you not noticed that S. America is democratic nowadays?”
Yes, but I’m not sure how you can claim that’s a direct result of Reagan-ism. Call my logic skewed but helping to install dictators isn’t generally seen as the best way to start the democratic process. Conspiring to assassinate democratically elected leaders is not the best way to spread democracy. Clearly Reagan was worried about the Commies, fair enough, but that does not excuse the fact that the US government knowingly undermined the democratic process in these countries. Furthermore, in the case of Noriega’s support, it was not by any means keeping the Commies out, but maintaining the US’s interest in Panama Canal.
“Stalin not a leftie? Nice try.”
If you find the bit in The Commie Manifesto which mentions gulags, ‘Stalinist Adoration’, massive collectivisation or any other of his crappy ideas let me know.
“Hardly. The US pressured the dictatorial FSLN (Sandinistas) into democracy. They won the first ‘election’ in 1984, no doubt assisted by being the only major party standing.”
Fine, we’ll just pretend the Contra’s didn’t exist and Reagan didn’t put illegal sanctions in place…I’ll stick my fingures in my ears…blah…blah…
http://www.gwu.edu/~jaysmith/Nicaragua.html
The left now says that all those regimes that ruled in such places as soviet Russia,Cambodia,or present day North Korea and Cuba were/are not real communists/socialists but dictatorships.”
No I was making the point that they weren’t democracies, despite either US support in the case of Cambodia or Cuba by the USSR. But neither were they to start with so this isn’t America spreading democracy is it?
P.S. No one said anything about the US not-very-democratic friends like Saudi Arabia (public executions, no democracy), Turkey (political and ethnic oppresion aplenty), Kuwait (not a democracy), Nepal (charade of a political process) etc, etc.
Did communist China have any involvement in Korea- were we now have the crazy God King and mass starvation?
Hello Ghost
Gulags, etc, are not in the Communist Manifesto but an innevitable consequence of communism. I recomend you read Animal Farm, its by a chap named George Orwell. Or even 1984.
You cannot suppress human nature, “all men are equal, but some are more equal than others”.
Anerica supported democracies in Europe for 5 decades – against the communist threat. To the point where communism collapsed and the other half of Europe can now vote in freedom. THIS is the continent we live in, not South America or Asia. HERE is where we owe most to America, but where we constantly find petty or rabid anti-Americanism.
Did the treacherous French bring democracy to Iraq ? Or the craven Spanish ? Or oil-for-arms dealing Russia and China ? Or Clare Short/George Galloway ? Or ghost ? Or the BBC? NO. The US did. And at the end of the day, Iraqis will remember that.
“I recomend you read Animal Farm, its by a chap named George Orwell. Or even 1984.”
I’ve read it. Very good. I’m more interested in where you stand on Saudi Arabia et. al. then debating the merits of commies, as I’m not one and therefore don’t really care!
“America supported democracies in Europe for 5 decades – against the communist threat”
Yep fine, not that’s not my point though. It was in the US’s interests to support democracy in Europe (b.t.w. Turkey is now apparently in Europe, if not geographically, a new best friend of the US and an illegitimate democracy).
Shall I tell the families the families of Spanish nationals tortured and executed by Pinochet that they shouldn’t get upset because the ‘US supported democracy in Europe?’
How about a Saudi whose just had a family member executed in public for speaking out against his rulers?
Ghost
As usual, you are trying to change the subject. This thread is about the BBC lying over Iraq casualty figures and then trying to cover up the lie. We don’t want a series of selective lessons about South America. Or you trying to pose as middle-of-the-road while defending communism while sourly denying the huge altruism of the Marshall Plan.
“I think what really rankles the Guardianistas is that a right-wing American has done more for democracy in the world than they ever have.”
This started it all. I disagreed with this statement and I’m not defending communism.
I just want to make the point that, in terms of US foreign policy, for every ‘Marshall Plan’ there’s an ‘Operation Condor’.
At the risk of sticking my neck out here, I would have to agree with some of the points TGORK brings up. During the Cold War, US foreign policy was dominated by ends-justifying-the-means realpolitik-al maneuvering. There were many places where the US behaved in less-than-savoury ways, both officially and unofficially.
However, I do think the damage done by US foreign policy in Cold War was minimal compared to the enemy’s actions at the time, and the outcome made for a better world.
I think what many people fail to appreciate now is that the US has adopted a foreign policy wherein they put their money where their mouth is, from the beginning.
As far as Saudi Arabia goes, it is one of the world’s largest oil producers, and relatively stable for a middle eastern monarchy. Better to wait for Iraq to stabilise and get oil production up and running than to invade Saudi right now? I have a feeling they are somewhere on the wish list of top 10 despotic countries to overthrow? B
(cont’d)
But, as with anything, timing counts. Why not take out low-hanging fruit like Iraq, Syria, and Iran, first?
Regards,
James
Thanks James. I just hope that democracy in Iraq is successful enough to inspire the people of Iran and Saudi et.al. to bring about democracy by their own means.
Wow, Stalin’s not a leftie? I’m at loss to explain why US commies and their fellow travelers like Lillian Hellman liked him so much in the 30s, 40s, and 50s!
Nice try, TGORK, but your efforts are laughably transparent.
Hello Ghost
Call me stupid. I seem to have lost your thread of argument. But then again so did you?
You went from “I’m struggling to think on leftie democracy-squashing the ‘left’ has actually committed. Afghanistan (in the 80’s)? No. Cuba? No.”
Then when presented with a list of democracy quashing left wing governemnts you went to:
“I’m more interested in where you stand on Saudi Arabia et. al. then debating the merits of commies, as I’m not one and therefore don’t really care!”
I think you are a right winger posing as a leftie to try and make lefties look stupid.
PS: You are very good
Ghost, in your response to James above, that’s exactly what we’re hoping.
My caveat is I don’t think the US should intervene anywhere else. I think the EU should get it’s chance to shine by intervening in Sudan. 😉