A reader writes:
The report out today from the Crime and Society Foundation – which points out that most murders in Britain are of relatively poor young men – is reported on the BBC website (link here) as follows:
Increasing murder rates over the past 25 years were triggered by a recession in the early 1980s, a report says.
Pointing the finger of blame unambiguously at the Tories. The tenor is accentuated with another telling phrase, allegedly from the author of part of the survey, that the research indicated that there was:
… a link between rising murder rates and young men leaving school in the early 1980s, which was a time of mass unemployment.
Reminding us again, in case we didn’t know, how grim those boys on the BBC website think that life under Margaret Thatcher was. Yet the press release and executive summary from the Foundation are not nearly so certain about cause and effect. Nowhere does the press release from the Foundation make the direct linkage with the 1980s that the BBC intro does (murder rates were triggered by the recession etc…). And the contribution of Professor Danny Dorling ( the co-author of the report quoted by the BBC) is described in the executive summary as follows: link
In conclusion Dorling argues that the deeper causes of the increased murder rate lie in the social and economic policies pursued by successive governments during the 1980s and (my italics) 1990s. The emergence of mass unemployment in the 1980s and the increased levels of poverty that continue to this day (my italics) have contributed to social stresses and conflict with long-term consequences.
In short, Professor Dorling is apparently very careful to lay the blame – unlike the BBC report – on both Tory and Labour governments. An alternative intro, playing the same editorial games of selectivity, could have been:
The widening gulf between the rich and the poor and increasing poverty of the lower classes – both of which have grown markedly under New Labour – have been blamed by a leading crime think tank for increasing levels of murder among young men.
That would be the day!
Lets not forget that the Conservatives took over after the Labour government had bust the country. SImilar to what will happen in a few years time.
The Conservatives then had to fight long and hard against the militant british workforce that under Labour had been encouraged to strike, and waste time and generally mess about.
Remember not having your bins collected for weeks?
The attitude of the people was what made them commit crime, not the government.
The militant communism that has now come back to haunt modern britain, is slowly moving in the shadows.
If you want proof go to Coombe Lane in Croydon. You will see in all of the windows the Communist Flag of the local trade union/ labour HQ.
I blame Labour.
ps. i’d still rather discuss the Bird FLU threat, think that has been glossed over.
far more serious.
50 000 could be killed, and then we’re told by govt, “but not this year?”
so what after the local elections?
Is it the actual government policies, or the constant drone of doom and gloom sentiment from the media during times of high unemployment that drive people to crime? Seems to me that the media often drives the perception of economic conditions more than the actual conditions themselves do.
I can accept that high unemployment might drive people to crimes of theft, but murder? That’s a bit harder to swallow.
How high was Britain’s murder rate during the Great Depression?
Susan asks, “How high was Britain’s murder rate during the Great Depression?”
I’d guess one of the lowest ever achieved by any human society.
I haven’t got the figures to hand, but I remember looking into all this a few years back. From memory the *rate* then was about a third of its peak in the 90s.
Oddly enough, in the 1990s whenever Parliament had one of its votes on bringing back “capital punishment” – the BBC always used to claim a couple of “facts”.
1. Most murders were committed by people who knew their victims or within families.
2. Capital punishment was not a deterrent.
So there we have it from the BBC. The thought of being put to death is not a deterrent to murder, but being employed is!
What about the efforts to do away with “traditional values”? You know, the ones that say it’s not nice to kill people, and things like that?
Couldn’t possibly be a factor, could it?
Whoever becomes the next leader of the UK’s alleged conservative party, I hope he can articulate what it means to be conservative as well as this Wall Street Journal opinion piece from today.
“I love being a conservative. We conservatives are proud of our philosophy. Unlike our liberal friends, who are constantly looking for new words to conceal their true beliefs and are in a perpetual state of reinvention, we conservatives are unapologetic about our ideals. We are confident in our principles and energetic about openly advancing them. We believe in individual liberty, limited government, capitalism, the rule of law, faith, a color-blind society and national security. We support school choice, enterprise zones, tax cuts, welfare reform, faith-based initiatives, political speech, homeowner rights and the war on terrorism.”
And the next Tory leader could also add… “And we believe as a matter of principle that no citizen should be forced to pay a “poll tax” for a state subsidized broadcaster. In the 21st Century, there is no rational reason why the BBC should be funded by anyone other than those who choose to subscribe. If the BBC is that good, and has such standards of excellence, it should have no problems competing in a free market of ideas and entertainment.
What happened to the deterrent effect of a life sentence!?!
The increase in murder rates in the UK has also runs parallel with the increase in mass immigration, but you’d be an evil racist if you made that connection.
Actually EM, you’re “racist” even if you “think” that.
And as soon as the technology is perfected to read your thoughts, you and all the other racist capitalist stooges will be liquidated as an enemy of the socialist state.
“Tolerance is a flabby bourgeois concept which we will not tolerate” V.I.Lenin, The Idiots Guide To Starting A Revolution, 1905.
Natalie,
I googled and found something documenting the number of executions for murder in the UK throughout the 20th Century:
http://www.murderuk.com/misc/executions.htm
Not figures on the murder rate itself, but the very low number of executions in the 1930s (only 87 executions over 10 years) does tend to suggest that murder was rather rare in those days of deprivation and poverty (far greater than any experienced in any Western country today.)
I have a suggestion for Gordon Brown and HIS goverment,but please please dont tell him. As he seems commited to not spending any more on prisons cos he is running out of cash.
This will solve both problems.
Put up taxes so much that nobody has anything left to be stolen.
Perhaps spend less on inspections of what the “racist” guards are wearing in their ties?
Perhaps spend less on TVs and pool tables for prisoners?
Perhaps get prisoners to grow their own food?
Thanks for the link Susan. Quite a low proportion of murderers were executed so the total murder rate was not as low as the number of executions suggests, but even so.
(You might be interested in this post from my blog.)
When I was in the Civil Service I once looked up a very useful Home Office table on murders in Britain in the twentieth century that I found very easily in the departmental library. Yet I haven’t been able to find anything similar on the web. (The plausible search terms are rather awkward and take you to some unsavoury places.)
Funny.
Really.
I dont think anyone on this site really should trust this and possibly any goverment to start judicial murder again. Its enought to have to worry about all I have writen before without having to worry about sitting on death row cos the goverment dont like my blogg. Just remember please how often just in the last 30 years they got it wrong. Especialy for political crimes. Do you want that on your consence? Having said that If that is what the people want the people should be allowed to try it.I would never vote for it.
Dont you think it is amasing that this country still likes to think it is a democracy. When It does not have and has not recently tried capital punishment. As it is well known that a large magority of the public want it. America has the right to still call its self a goverment by the people for the people because of it.
That is also why it could never be part of anything as mad as the EEC or put up with anything quite so dumb as the BBC. Also why they got more money than us and a cheaper country to live in.
Why are lefties wrong about everything ? Do they Just find out what right thinking people believe and just think the opposite Or is that what the right thinkers do to the left? The BBC has long been in the habit of believing the opposite to every grain of my common sense. Is socalism a mental disease? Or is it some kind of redemption for a lost religion? Why in particular are socalists generaly so well educated when they so clearly dont know what the hell they are talking about? Why do they think they can run a country when they could not and would not run a milk round properly? Why do they pretend to be so smart and dress like colour blind refugees? How can they all spout the same garbage on script and keep a staight face? Why do they believe all tories are racist homophobes with supperiority complexes,when it is a much beter discription of there own beliefs.
Oh!! Its O.K. Ive got it,its cos they have been been brainwashed by the BBC and educational establishments for 65years. You got to feel a little sorry for them. After all if they were really that smart they could have got themselves a proper job.
I can say this because im safe at home.
If there are any British socalists out there left,not to ashamed to admit it. This is just for you. Please now go away. You have had your 8year display of what British socalism is when it has political power and you cant honestly tell anyone that even you are impressed. Until you have an idear of doing anything better then how it is done stop screwing up everybodies harderned futures. Socalism DOES NOT WORK on any level how many times do you people nead to find this out. How many peoples lives have you been resposible for destroying 20-30 million or so not enough for you. Socalism means state control is that what you really want. Do you really think things will work better when it is run by someone who cant match there socks. Stop trying to punish your parents and grow up. They probely were not that bad after all. Do you really think you can trust a politician to run anything as important as education health and pensions,for the benifit of anyone but themselves. What in your experience made you come to such a mad idear.
OH!! yes I forgot you had your brainwashed by the BBC and educational esablishment for 65years. Dont you feel just a little bit stupid now?
Gary,
In response to your points.
Britain remains a democracy. You had a vote a while ago which directly contributed to the election of the current House of Commons. If you wanted capital punishment there were some parties offering it as a manifesto commitment. Not even America takes every government decision by referenda – your implied view of ‘true’ democracy. We’d be bankrupt in a week.
I tend to agree with you about the bizarre prevalence of pretty extreme left wing thought in the educational system – possibly it’s partly because to make money academics must be forever developing ideas into new and controversial areas and partly because they don’t have to work in the real world.
Having said that only a fool could label the current government as ‘socialist’ and whilst few would be hugely impressed only a head in the sand ideologue would claim that it’s been disasterous.
Cheers.
Here’s a coincidence: “Nation’s murder rate hits 40-year low.”
RB,
Whenever and wherever you remove purchasing power from a formely free group of people, the weed of socialism grows in it’s place.
TV-Tax => Socialist Broadcaster.
State Schooling => Socialist Teaching (I wont call it education!).
Failure Reward System => The chav.
NHS => MRSA.
RB – you say that only a fool could label the current government as “socialist”.
Well, I agree it is not “socialist” in the sense of nationalising much (apart from Railtrack, without compensation!) – but then, no Labour government has been, apart from the 1945-1951 one.
And, no it hasn’t pushed up tax rates in the way that previous Labour governments have. Mind you, no previous Labour government ever put 4% stamp duty on more expensive houses, so Leftists can have a little cheer there.
But it has done more to restrict people’s freedom of speech and liberties generally than ANY previous government, whether Labour or Tory.
Finally, it has increased State spending by 40% in real terms in the last 8 years, with remarkably little to be shown for it. That sounds pretty “socialist” to me 😉
So, although the “socialist” label is sometimes carelessly applied, I suspect that Leftists have quite a bit to be pleased with.
Gary
Why are lefties wrong about everything ? Do they Just find out what right thinking people believe and just think the opposite Or is that what the right thinkers do to the left?
I do think the elitist wing of the left does something like this. They think they’re better, more educated. And beliefs held by common people are therefore suspect. So they do tend to hold the opposite beliefs, even if it means contradicting themselves.
RB
If you choose to beleive that socalism is not like this goverment I suggest that you have no idear what a conservative is either. Do you think that that leopard has changed its spots just because it has adopted a cheecky grin and the BBC toll you so. They may be useless and misguided but they are not thick. They are national socalists without the guns and concentration camps…..yet. This cat may after 18years of tory rule nead a more carefull skinning but skin it they will. Socalism in the end has one face only and that is STATE POWER over the individual. Give them to much rope and they will hang us all.
Or as Orwell said “a boot stamping on a human face forever”
RB
Thats a cheap point and you must know it.Referendoms here are talked about constantly. I could not think of an issue more suited for one than the probationary return to capitol punishment. I fully accept that American politics is not perfect they have a large amount of loonys there too. This issue is perhaps the only issue that now still cuts across the political parties and as such should be treated differently from others. I dont want to shatter any ground on which you are standing but has it ever occured to you that if 75% of people genuinely believe something is right for them. They just might have a better idear of what is good for them than you do. What ever there reasons are.
As I have said before I would NEVER vote for It.
James gausse
Socalist is whot they still call themselves so I dont see how that can be careless. You also did not mention getting this country into a war without any proven theat to its people or interests.
A type of war that to my knowledge no British goverment has ever entered into.
That also nearly 30% of the work force is now employed by the state. Lotts and Lotts of reasons to vote Labour but not much to show the people who pay for it.
Please dont be fooled into believing this lott dont mean business. They have scared the shit out of me. It is a device they and their mates at the BBC and civil service use to hide their intention of gaining power over your lives while providing more freedom and power for themselves. That sounds very socalist to me.
EM wrote:
“The increase in murder rates in the UK has also runs parallel with the increase in mass immigration, but you’d be an evil racist if you made that connection.”
No I wouldn’t call you racist for making that statement I would just say that you have confused correlation with causation. It is a well established scientific and philosophical principle that the former does not prove the latter.
This gives more info:
http://www.sciencenetlinks.org/sci_update.cfm?DocID=233
As does any reading of Hume or other books and websites on this matter.
I’m really not trying to be a smug leftie here cos in my view this very issue of causation goes to the heart of many political debates. Most often tha not neither the right nor the left has sufficent evidence and theory to prove causation.
Ask yourself this question.
If you were a commited socalist and had worked hard for the last 20 years to get your people in power. Attended all the political meetings canvasing etc. Only to find that you had help elect a “soft Tory party”. Dont you think you might be a bit nift?
Well I dont see to many nift trade unions,civil servants teachers, students,back or front bench Labour MPs,BBC employees,greens,lawyers,judges etc yet….have you.
Maybe that is because they know something you dont. And that is that their leaderships have been “bought off” with your cash and pensions.
Dont sit there and delude yourself that you can elect the state collaborators 3 times and it will not have an almost terminal effect on your liberty. Dont even think about 4 or 5 times. Because there will not be a sixth.
A lerker
You do not have to prove causation in this. But if you really must, why not try it you could then analise the dater and have an informed debate if you wish afterwards. To me however on this issue I see no reason why anyone that still believes in democracy can or does not want to TRUST THE PEOPLE to know what is good for them and good for their communties. Remember at least 75% of your fellow subjects. How often are 75% wrong in your experience? Good thing your not trying to sell them coka-cola you would go bust. It is still their country rich or poor, stupid or socalist. I think. Even if the E.U. does not.
Can I nail that one about this goverment has not raised tax that much.
Absolute dangerous rubish.
The highly positive policy persued by the Thatcher goverment of moving taxation away from employment onto indirect taxation has been hijaked by this goverment. How smart do you think it was to put these foxes in charge of the chickens?I really cant list the things you are now paying for that used to be free its just too long. Dont believe me. We the people have never payed as much of OUR wealth in taxes in our entire history, Just look at the goverments own figures. I have evenmore bad news more of it comes from the lowest earners than than ever before. And yes that might sound not very socalist to you. But as I know what Socalism really is,because I have tryed not to lett the BBC brainwash me. I think it is absolutly socalist.
Socalism does not mean being nice to poor people it means using them.
Ask anyone in this country what job they do and if they answer public servant of almost any kind. Dont bother to ask them how they vote because you probely already know. This goverment has split this country in so many directions it is getting ready to accept almost anything.I think the concentration camps are next. I Know you think I am joking,but I am not.
Gary Powell,
Please try to ensure that your comments do not dominate the comment threads unduly.
A Lurker
“Most often tha not neither the right nor the left has sufficent evidence and theory to prove causation.”
And very often the reason for that is because the left insists on not breaking down crime stats into racial or immigrant categories. I wonder why.