Do we believe this? I don’t.
This page entitled “Should ‘anti-Islam’ cartoons have been published?” is an edited roundup of opinions sent in by readers of the BBC website. This is the style that the BBC used to have for all its Have Your Say pages until the organisation rather creditably changed to a lightly moderated forum style last year, in which posts can either be read in the order of most to least recent, or, crucially, in the order of most to least recommended.
So why is this page not an open forum? Well, it says “We are running this style of debate due to technical problems. We apologise to all our readers and contributors and will return to normal service as soon as possible.” The Pedant-General, he of Infinitives Unsplit, emailed me to say, “you must post something about this.” As it happens I had taken a hurried look at the page myself earlier and I confess that like the Pedant-General, I had thought cynical thoughts. But almost certainly it is true; there is immense public interest in this issue and so one would expect many people to be attempting to use the board, which might well cause technical problems.
So while I’ll accept the BBC’s explanation that there were technical troubles I am frankly sceptical when it says it “reflects the balance of opinion we have received so far.” It sure didn’t look like that on the open forum – which seems to be open again now.
As the Pedant-General says,
In the “recommended” section, not one of the first five PAGES of comments was anything other than wholly supportive of need to publish. The vast majority of the supportive comments were coherent and rational, where the vast majority of the Muslim complainants demonstrated that they had no concept of free speech. Many were of the form “Free speech does not mean freedom to offend or insult”. To which the answer is “Yes it is. That is exactly what it is”.
The current top comment has 1121 recommendations. For most of these debates the top comment has about a hundred.
In this post the Pedant-General points out that the Have Your Say homepage (NB: link will change) currently takes you to the edited roundup, not the open forum. I just checked. As of 6.21pm, he’s right. On the BBC news front page, too, the link that says, “Heated Debate – readers from Europe and the middle east react…”) again takes you to the edited roundup.
You can get to the forum if you go to the Have Your Say homepage then go via the quotes in the grey box on the top left – but there’s no indication to users who don’t already know that those quotes will take you to a forum. You know what I think? I think that the technical problems were real, but they came in very handy for the BBC. They’d rather unsophisticated, non-regular readers went to the edited discussion rather than the free-for-all.
The Pedant-General has more here (“Where is OUR spine, damnit?”) In this post he talks about the failure to report the context of the original publication. It has not been well reported – arguably it should reappear in pretty much every report – but to be fair it is mentioned in this Q & A.
Pity. The BBC showed half a spine in showing the cartoons on TV, albeit with a ridiculous dramatic reconstruction of an artist drawing them. (What was this, Crimewatch?) Half a spine is more than the British press showed.
Some of the points made by TAoL are being confirmed here (again):
1. Woman dies in Israel knife attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4682566.stm
2. Victorious Hamas must tread carefully
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4655716.stm
Don’t we just love it when “guerillas” come to power?
Rick: They could also be a bit more truthful by removing all white actors from Eastenders and putting more asians there. After all the East End I know doesn’t comprise of that many caucasians.
disillusioned_german, BBC News is even trying to blur Hamas’s status.
Someone should write a book “The world according to the BBC” – would make for fascinating reading, I’m sure.
I just ordered “Why I’m not a muslim” by Ibn Warraq and “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order” by Samuel Huntington.
It’s very important to have good arguments these days. Time to educate a few people about the media and islam.
Grumpy Troll: I boycott BBC (TV) News these days. I feel much more comfortable watching Fox News.
The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order” by Samuel Huntington.
Very good book with some interesting aspects. You should also try Amy Chua “World On Fire” to get an idea of what is stoking some of this, but not all of it ………………..and some Hannah Rendt
sorry – Hannah Arendt
also, Christopher Lasch “Revolt of The Elites”
Folks it’s getting scary. The plumbing community has attacked the largest church in Lebanon as well as the Danish embassy:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060205/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings_51
New petition to counter all the pro Islam/anti-Danish ones.
http://www.petitiononline.com/bingo12/petition.html
“Why is Mohamed referred to as “The prophet”, we don’t say Jesus Christ the son of God (May His Father bless his little cotton socks) do we. So why this kowtowing to a foreign deity?”
That’s probably because the correct dhimmi form would be to follow the mention of Muhammid’s name with the ‘pee bees upon him’ or SUV or whatever suffix.
Don’t want to upset the RoP’ers do we?
last nights moral maze, on the cartoon rage, is now available:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml
Viking Observer, Danish blog in English, has some interesting updates from the Danish press, including a brutal attack on a Danish hotdog seller for “selling unclean meat.”
http://viking-observer.blogspot.com/
The Beeb probably won’t report any of this stuff, it goes without saying.
On a related issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4680948.stm
Jihad Momani and Hisham Khalidi, if they escape with their lives, should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
I hope the ‘international community’ comes to their aid. No, I don’t just hope: these two men are in desperate need of our help and it is incumbent upon Western governments to lobby on their behalf.
susan -> looks serious. 160 arrested. riot police. neo-nazis fighting islamists.
things dont look so good in the state of Denmark right now.
But what struck Henley was “how white” Copenhagen is.
Ah, but were they hideously white? To the BBC being white’s almost a crime.
For a country that had very little overseas colonies, apart from Greenland and Norway I think, and that had at no time in its entire existence ever held one square inch of islamic land, I think the Danes are exceptionally tolerant to put up with the sizable muslim presence in their country. A presence that as far as I am aware has come about not by any mandate from the Danish people.
I wonder if the BBC are similarly vexed about how Turkish Turkey is? That country did at least have a sizable empire, older if fact then most Europeans empires, but there’s very little of the diversity and multiculturalism so beloved by the BBC and left. Where’s the Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Arabs, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Armenians in Turkey?
The usual different standards for different peoples I guess.
Hey “courageous” beeboids,
Why don’t you publish these types of cartoons from the Arab press?
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/roligt/big/rislam60.gif
Some chance eh!
This fact was stated by one of France’s leading journalists in Le Figaro last Thursday.
But no doubt the experience of electoral office will moderate their stance and in the meantime the West should continue to hand over great dollops of cash.
Still, I suppose most of it will be used to buy arms this time rather than swell Swiss bank accounts!
To all on the b-bbc, if you agree with this petition then be brave, sign it, and let others know that you have signed it. we need to let government know that we find the behaviour in london unacceptable.
thankyou
http://www.petitiononline.com/bingo12/
What is it with the BBC’s obsession with George Galloway?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4683522.stm
Whenever Galloway wants to say something, the BBC oblige. Not bad for a weekend, given how ‘difficult’ it is to report minor incidents like murders, etc on a weekend. Extremist left-wing MP’s opinions however, are a different matter.
Sorry my post got chewed up!
Trying again
One of France’s leading journalists said last thursday tha mebers of Hamas have to commit themselves in writing, when they join the movement, to “kill at least one Jew in their lifetime. Has the BBC or the rest of the British media told you this?
Some chance eh!
This fact was stated by one of France’s leading journalists in Le Figaro last Thursday.
But no doubt the experience of electoral office will moderate their stance and in the meantime the West should continue to hand over great dollops of cash.
Still, I suppose most of it will be used to buy arms this time rather than swell Swiss bank accounts
I’ll add mine, http://www.petitiononline.com/bingo12/ seeing that the Anti- Danish ones are so popular…over a million on one of them.
It was also immpossible to report the hate crime on the Police website which was linked earlier.
The protestors were definately inciting violence, and they will get away with it.
It (the protest in London) may be just the spark for another underpriveleged kid in Yorkshire to commit an act of physical terror on the Tube.
Archduke:
Looks like you were right.
Those Palestinian Christians will be better off in Israel.
http://viking-observer.blogspot.com/
‘Anti-christian riot in Lebanon’
The Muslim Lords and Ladies, and the so called “moderate” Muslims are more dangerous than the fundamentalists. The moderates having been exposed to secular society have a pick and choose religion. Thus garbed they whisper in the ear of the BBC and the gullible media, “Islam is OK, see we mean you no harm”. The fundamentalists speak the truth, they have so studied the religion that they can quote from the holy book at any time, and they believe every single dot and comma. Modern Christan’s are mainly “moderate” in that they may not believe that God made the world in a week, but still imagine an eternal life in heaven. There is a shock in store however, because when they get to heaven and confess to God, “I don’t actually believe that bit about you making the world in a week, but thanks for letting me into heaven anyway”. He going to say “Go to Hell”. Be warned, heaven and Paradise are reserved for fundamentalist martyrs only.
What is that “moderate” danger? You still have to believe in God or Allah or whatever, despite having certain reservations about the strange and nasty bits. Its like having to believe in Father Christmas in order to get your Xmas presents even if you have
worked out that he can’t get to see everyone in a single night and your house hasn’t got a chimney.
The fundementalists speak the truth about their religions.
So we now enter the first of the Great Cartoon Wars between Secular Satirists and Muslim Violence with Christians caught in-between.
Having long forgotten their own Christian roots and disparaged the religion that made them, the West Europeans have given the Muslim fanatics a spark to fan into a flame and they can now pull out of the drawer the plans to burn churches and bring the kind of mindless violence and directed rage that has made most Muslim countries poor, benighted hell-holes of oppression and unstinting poverty.
Wearing out the Welcome ( ” WoW” ) seems to be the only result which will be ingrained on the public as they watch a supine government without any guiding principle in London. Why is Charles Clarke the invisible Home Secretary ? Menezes is shot dead – not a peep from Big Ears – assorted hoodlums parade in London breaching the Public Order Act 1986, and the upcoming Racial and Religious Hatred Bill 2006
The bill contains wording to amend the Public Order Act 1986:
* Section 17A
o Meaning of “religious hatred”
+ In this Part “religious hatred” means hatred against a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief.
* Section 18:
o (1) a person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, abusive or insulting, is guilty of an offence if—
+ (a) he intends thereby to stir up racial or religious hatred, or
+ (b) having regard to all the circumstances the words, behaviour or material are (or is) likely to be heard or seen by any person in whom they are (or it is) likely to stir up racial or religious hatred.
It should be noted that through Section 17A the Bill is intended to prevent the stirring up of hatred of persons, not to prevent hatred of a religion. However, critics of the bill argue that this wording allows it to be abused to threaten the free speech of many religious and racial communities – anyone may claim that certain words are “abusive or insulting”. They suggest that this is by nature a very subjective claim, and that the bill will extend far further than the problem it is designed to address. Supporters of the Bill have difficulty in understanding how any normal religious discourse could be mistaken for stirring up hatred against persons.
listening to Jack Straw being interviewed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/worldthisweekend/
the man is a f**king idiot.
I just saw on BBC News 24 Mahmoud Zahar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza, getting in and out of a nice big shiny Mercedes car. He said some Palestinians had already boycotted Danish goods and Hamas wanted them to continue protesting by “legal means”. Clearly a boycott of German goods would be like removing the carpet from beneath his feet. Meanwhile, in the West Bank city of Nablus, a German citizen was seized (presumably on foot or did they nick his Mercedes?)- and later released – after armed terrorists roamed hotels threatening to kidnap nationals of European countries in which the cartoons were published. Of course the subject of boycotting Danish milk products might arise but German cars? At the same time Muslims in Denmark are viciously beating up a hot dog vendor. Presumably they are out on the stump canvassing for European monies to be sent to Mahmoud Zahar?
a German citizen was seized
Yes he was teaching English………….not something I personally would entrust to a German, but then again
If referenced somewhere above, I apologise, but Mark Steyn once more displays the powers of his perspicacious intellect.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn05.html
Pakistan church attacked two days ago.
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/newsdetails.php?newsid=755
Beeb report?
“Shooting kills priest in Turkey.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4683548.stm
Yes, that’s right – a “shooting” killed the priest, according to al-Beeb. Said shooting just got up and done that poor man in all by its little self.
According to the BBCs Jullien Isherwood in Copenhagen on BBC News 24, there is a “constitutional problem” in Denmark, that results in no action being able to be taken against the newspaper that published the Mohammed cartoons. I wonder if this “problem” has anything to do with free speech? In an article in the NZZ there is mention of a boycott underway of Muslim shops in Denmark, I have yet to hear a BBC report that mentions this. Presumably they don’t want to upset Hamas’ plans or give any ideas to British viewers?
ot
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/05022006/325/police-urged-act-cartoon-protest.html
I think the most moderate and sensible thing to do here is arrest those people inciting violence.
The Govt is failing in its ‘responsibility’ and sending the wrong message to radical people intent on causing racial tension.
If i were Home Secretary first thing Monday, i’d be pressing the police to act.
It is the only responsible thing to do.
“Clash of Civilisations” is a misnomer. It’s an attack on civilisation period. To use this phrase is to acknowledge that the opposition is free fair and democratic. That it isn’t disqualifies them calling themselves civilised.
Yes, there is a constitutional problem but not only in Denmark. Come on, let’s forget about our constitutions and free speech. Tear these anti-muslim papers up and replace it with the sharia laid down in the holy koran. The end is nigh and I don’t want to be around when it is here!
Thanks for the book suggestions, by the way, Rick – I’ll look into them.
Fair point, Sarge… I may be an arrogant Western infidel but I believe we’re civilised and they most certainly are not!
John,
I would boycott good from the Middle East, but they don’t make anything I ever buy. I don’t even drive, so I’m not using their oil.
I’m certainly doing my best to buy Danish.
Rob
Said shooting just got up and done that poor man in all by its little self.
Susan – are you the reincarnation of Howlin’ Wolf?
I signed the petition – we need to spread the word a bit.
How long ’till Jack Straw postfixing his references to “the prophet Mohammed” with “peace be upon him”?
Glad you can accept my appology Henry, we may have our differences but I can sort of see where you’re coming from and at least we agree about some damn important stuff.
Simon
Jack Straw has already done that in his smirking and grovelling performance in front of the mullocracy in Teheran.
Every reference to Mo (and I do not see why in a speech by a Foreign Secretary there should have been any) was adorned by pbuh etc.
On the other hand I heard recently, here in France, a discussion, lasting about 50 minutes between two scholars of Islam, one of whom was a muslim, concernig the prophet, the Koran, the Hadiths etc without a single use of the honorific epithets. The mistaken belief in the West that the use of these terms is obligatory or even usual is just another way of enforcing dhimmitude.
Just signed the petition and am busy spreading the word.
Has anyone suggested a boycott of all muslim shops in the UK ?
Suggest it somewhere else. This type of comment is not welcome here. I have a feeling I have seen your moniker next to some other doubtful stuff, King Chillout. Do not oblige me to check to see if there is enough to have you banned.
Edited By Siteowner
Where is Palmerston ? That was a Foreign Secretary.
BTW. German NTV just had a phone-poll whether the West was too weak in standing up for its values – 95% agreed it was too weak.
.. I may be an arrogant Western infidel
Really ? I thought Muslims were “infidel” and “heathen” since they are Unbelievers and hostile to the Judaeo-Christian tradition.
there is a “constitutional problem” in Denmark,
ARTICLE 10
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
The European Convention on Human Rights
I was using the muslim description. Of course they’re also the actual infidels, Rick
Gordon, thanks for that, I should have known.
What an arsewipe he is.
As for a boycott of Muslim shops, I would not take part. The thing is, I don’t object to Muslims being offended – that’s fine. If an individual Muslim takes deep offence at these cartoons then that is his right, I wouldn’t stop doing business with him. What I object too is the demands for government action or censure or calls to violence in response to this. Now if any individual Muslim (or non-Muslim) thinks that is OK then I will not have anything to do with them. A blanket boycott would not be fair.
What an arsewipe he is.
(Jack Straw, not Gordon!)
Looks like we are going to see Jewish hordes on the streets of bBelgium calling for the death of everyone in that country.
A Belgian-Dutch Islamic political organization posted anti-Jewish cartoons on its Web site in response to the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed that appeared in Danish papers last year and offended many Muslims.
The cartoons were posted on the Arab European League’s site on Saturday. It was not working Sunday morning because of exceeded bandwidth. The Islamic site carried a disclaimer saying the images were being shown as part of an exercise in free speech rather than to endorse their content – just as European newspapers have reprinted the Danish cartoons.
One of the AEL cartoons displayed an image of Dutch Holocaust victim Anne Frank in bed with Adolf Hitler, and another questioned whether the Holocaust actually occurred.
Dyab Abou Jahjah, the party’s founder and best-known figure, defended the action on the Dutch television program Nova Saturday. “Europe has its sacred cows, even if they’re not religious sacred cows,” he told the program.
Just looked at 5Live’s Have your Say on barriers to freedom of speech. Nearly all posters are very angry about the antics of Islamic extremists and the authorities’ failure to confront them. Read 17 posts before finding one that blamed it all on the British.
John,
“Read 17 posts before finding one that blamed it all on the British.”
Obviously. Because these cartoons have been ALL OVER the British Press.
Sheesh.