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dumbcisco | 08.06.06 – 5:23 pm,
He is merely “distasteful” said John Simpson.
Yeah, and Frank Gardner regards suicide bombing as an “unpleasant” aspect of Islam.
Hey, wasn’t the excuse for the behaviour that gave Don’t Have Your Say its name that they needed to keep censoring/deleting stuff to exclude extremists ?
I just wondering in the light of what’s on page 1 of the Zed’s Dead thread at the moment:
the death of heroic Al Qaeda leader will slow down the insurgency for a moment, two or three days. but like what they say, the death of one great man will lead us to the newborn of thousand great man. believe me, it’s mean nothing but two or three days headlines in a major newspaper.
zulhazry, kuala lumpur, malaysia
So, if you’ve ever been censored by DHYS, this is how to get published.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=2085&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20060609085325&#paginator
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5062360.stm
Wanted militant dies in Gaza raid
He was one of Israel’s most wanted men in Gaza, and was thought to be involved in a 2003 attack on a US convoy.
Not too sure what to make of that last bit… Are they saying he ‘worked’ in Iraq, or did he attack American forces in Israel?
The line now being taken by the BBC is “Zarqawi is dead BUT……” They are in lockstep on this. The party line has been defined.
It is positively Stalinist the way the de facto ban on the T words stops EVERY BBC commentator from using the T word. Has ANYONE at the BBC used it yesterday or today ? Do people get punished if they use it ? Are they all sheep ? It is not just the Middle East staff plus Gardner and Simpson (and Paul Reynolds ?) – it is all the people in London too. There appears to have been an absolute taboo on the T word for Zarqawi, and on this occasion the BBC looks to be totally isolated among all the British media.
But they are not content with
failing to call him a terrorist – a moral failure. They report that he has been responsible for myriad major and minor atrocities – but then try to minimise his significance. The Coalition and Iraqi forces kill Zarqaqi, his “spiritual advisor” and 6 other leading Al Q members (the top grouping ?), and carry out a total of 17 raids – but somehow the effectiveness of Al Q in Iraq will not be harmed ? The Iraqis dance in the streets – but Al Q has not suffered a serious reverse ? Zarqawi is shown to be a “weak horse” – but there will be no effect on recruiting ? His financial web is broken – but that will hardly matter ? There won’t be an accretion of support towards constitutional government, towards the efforts of the new group of ministers to curb the violence ? There won’t be a significant boost to the morale of the strengthening Iraqi army and police force ?
All these “minimal lasting effect of Zarqawi’s termination” arguments are being trotted out by BBC staff left right and centre – even though many of them have nil grounds or experience to make such claims. It is all pure speculation on their part – and of course all their speculation is negative to the Coalition cause. They try comparing it to the capture of Saddam – but Saddam was not actively ORGANISING terrorism, was not ACTIVELY CONDUCTING TERRORIST ACTS.
Here are a couple of articles countering the BBC’s view :
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/a_severe_blow_to_alqaeda.html
and Chris Hitchens :
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/a_severe_blow_to_alqaeda.html
Out of interest – has ANYONE heard ANYONE at the BBC apply the T-word to Zarqawi in the past 24 hours ?
ultimaestrazionesuperenalotto
un-attimo.gif
venditacolonnesonore
Out of interest – has ANYONE heard ANYONE at the BBC apply the T-word to Zarqawi in the past 24 hours ?
Nope.
Re Saddam, he may not have been involved in terrorism al-Qaeda style, but obviously terrorised his own people. And of course he promoted Palestinian terror against Israelis by funding the families of suicide bombers.
I wonder which Iraqis, if any, have been handed that particular baton.
But of course it’s ludicrous to compare Saddam’s capture and Zarqawi’s killing.
I like to think of my wife as your average viewer/listener of BBC output. She’s not that interested in news or current affairs, but sees and hears enough to have a superficial knowledge of what’s going on……. from the BBC.
Last night we were watching news at 10. Zarkawi killed. Then the BBC mention that maybe 6 civilians dies also. Wife says “That’s terrible, why didn’t they just arrest him (Zarkawi)?”
I asked her “Do you know what an evil, dangerous man he was, what he had done?” Nope. She hadn’t a clue. I had the laptop out so straight to Fox news website to show her some details.
The BBC never said Zarkawi was a Terrorist, infact they have made him out to be some sort of Iraqi “freedom fighter” when he is neither Iraqi, and has killed plenty innocent Iraqi’s.
Good example of bias by omission.
…………….
Bolton was good on R4 Today this morning. I think I am quoting correctly:
Naughtie: “UN deputy blah says the US should blah blah…”
Bolton: “Here’s how it is. The elected governments tell the UN officials what to do, not the other way around.”
Fantastic.
John Bolton on the UN
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today3_bolton_20060609.ram
Out of interest – has ANYONE heard ANYONE at the BBC apply the T-word to Zarqawi in the past 24 hours ?
dumbcisco | 09.06.06 – 9:38 am
I have heard just one use of the T word. It was during PM yesterday (Wed).
Eddie Mair introduced a report thus:
“Dominic Arkwright reports now on how a former videoshop worker became such a bogeyman.”
[Bogeyman? Did he jump out in front of kids and shout boo?]
DA’s report started…
“When he died Al Z was the most ruthless and wanted terrorist in Iraq…”.
Listen Again shows it at about 17.33.
dumbcisco | 09.06.06 – 9:38 am
The 2 links you show go to the same place.
g-b
Sorry. Here is the chris Hitchens link :
http://www.slate.com/id/2143305/nav/tap1/
Let’s clear up this Al Z was promoted by the Coalition solely for PR reasons crap.
If the Coalition had wanted to big up Al Z then the beeb and the msm would have ignored him.
How do I know this? Because the Coalition puts out a lot of reports about progress in repairing the Iraqi infrastructure and almost none of it gets published by the beeb or msm.
Eamonn wrote:
“Are you willing to learn? If so, then at all costs avoid Any Questions on Radio 4 tonight, as John Pilger is on. You have been warned! Also avoid Any Answers tomorrow, which will feature Pilger groupies phoning in.”
The arguments(??) of Galloway and Pilger are not difficult to refute: I could do it. The BBC’s trick is that it ensures that no-one is present on the debating panel who will do just that. Having Liam Fox on with George Galloway was no accident. And I will wager that no-one willing to challenge the lies and falsehoods peddled by John Pilger will be on AQ tonight.
Anonymous
I think you’ve got it absolutely right. We all know EXACTLY the Pilger/Galloway line on their favourite themes. These lines have been solidly refuted by endless articles (yes even in the MSM) let alone on endless blogs. The same has happened to Robert Fisk (which is why analytical in-depth exposure of crap is called fisking). All it would have taken is for Fox to have done 5 minutes homework to see off Galloway. But for some reason he stayed his hand. And the same should happen tonight on Any Questions (but it won’t).
BBC ups it’s revenue base to include all companies with a PC….
Watching World Cup online could land you in court
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/06/09/internet_tv_licence/
“Employees watching World Cup matches on the internet without a TV licence could for the first time land company directors in court as the TV Licensing Authority extends its World Cup clampdown to broadband and internet usage.”
Ritter
The BBC Scottish Labour mafia were all over John Bolton.
As well as Naughtie on Today – Kirsty Wark had two clips with him on Newsnight – describing him as “hawkish”. Don’t they ever get tired of these worn-out epithets. The first was 7 minutes in, getting his comments on Zarqawi. I thought Bolton should have reached across and throttled her to stop her wittering. She was about as juvenile as that kid that Dimbleby asked two comments from last night. “Ooo-er, isn’t war horrible”. Wark was trying to say that the insurgency was caused by the Americans.
Later she had a panel discussion including Abdul Bari Atawn -the Arab with funny eyes they always trot on even though he gets hysterical, last night he was forecasting an increase in violence – plus William Shawcross who slapped Atwan down as the raving loonie he is, and tried to put Wark right when she asked totally silly questions like “Is this the time to start withdrawing troops?”
The second snip of Wark versus John Bolton was when they switched to the spat with Mark Malloch Brown – the PR/lobbyist guy now Kofi Annan’s deputy. This starts at 30 minutes in. Liz MacKean gave an intro that was fair to the US attitude towards the UN, and even the Chatham House guy was critical of Malloch Brown. But Wark was having none of this :
Wark – “When was the last time you went on TV to say how great the UN is ?”
Bolton – long pause “I tell the truth”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm
Having both Bolton (even though cast as a villain) and William Shawcross on Newnight was delicious. Telling it like it is.
William Manchester is the guy to “fisk” John Pilger or George Galloway.
Why is the BBC dredging up Pilger again ? I thought he was over the hill ?
Oh no – the BBC have a penchant for gaga lefties – Pilger/Benn/Hurd/Jimmy Carter/Giscard/Ming/Kofi
anon at 11.13am was me
Having both Bolton (even though cast as a villain) and William Shawcross on Newnight was delicious. Telling it like it is.
dumbcisco | 09.06.06 – 11:05 am | #
——————————————————————————–
dumisco – I saw Shawcross v Abdul Bari Atawn last night and pretty good it was too. Shawcross tried hard to out Abdul as an apologist for Saddam and Zararwi, which just made Abdul go into hysterical eye bulging mode. You could see Shawcross thinking “my work here is done, just wind him up and let him go…..”
HYS moderators must have loved this comment from an unpatriotic American:
Added: Friday, 9 June, 2006, 02:00 GMT 03:00 UK
I’ll be watching the Cup on ESPN and Univision here in America, but I’ll be hoping to see the US team fall flat on its face to show the world that the USA cannot dominate in all international affairs.
Keith Bramstedt, San Anselmo, California, USA
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=2012&&&edition=1&ttl=20060609105100
This is one response he got:
Oh, c’mon Keith, that’s not what it’s all about. I’m just a “soccer mom” but even I know that. Lighten up – or better yet, go kick a ball around. GO USA! GO ENGLAND!
Ann Curtin, Annapolis,Maryland, United States
I’ve been boycotting cable and satellite TV for a few years now because of the way they keep raising the price for fewer channels while having the breathtaking cheek to call these rip-offs ‘sales’.
Anyone know if BBC World will have any of the games online?
I think I’ve earned a free game or two, having waded for years through the propagandist crap the BBC pumps out.
David Starkey (fellow guest on Any Questions) might fisk Pilger – if he’s allowed to – but I wouldn’t bet on it. BTW look forward to an avalanche of Pilger support on Any Answers on Saturday.
John Simpson’s report on al-Z last night: seemed to come from London. He was in a suit and tie and clearly in a studio. I wonder if this is the (feeble) reason behind his self-indulgent, mournful gloomy and dejected “war is lost” report the other day, strolling in the park with his mate.
Bad timing pulling him out just as al-Z got killed…..
The BBC keeps describing Zarqawi as an “insurgent”.
This is surely a misuse of English.
Isurgency means to RISE UP in one’s own country – to throw off what is perceived as an oppressive yoke. To REBEL. Like the Maoists in Nepal are genuinely insurgent. The Malay communists were insurgent. Eoka was insurgent.
There are times when the methods of insurgency shift across into terrorism – when the targets of the insurgents are not the military but are the civilians.
Insurgency does NOT mean a Jordanian INVADING Iraq and bringing hundreds of other invading jihadis in from Syria, Yemen, Saudi, Britain etc etc. Especially when the methods are almost entirely terrorist – kidnappings of civilians, attacks on civilian men, women and children at weddings, mosques, in the market etc.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=insurgent
http://www.answers.com/topic/insurgent
http://dict.die.net/insurgent/
Zarqawi could have been an insurgent in Jordan. But he was NOT an insurgent in Iraq. He was a terrorist invader.
Any sign of Paul Reynolds these days ? The BBC has been behaving especially badly recently. Why ?
reith is a poor substitute/no substitute for Mr Reynolds, who at least tries to answer questions.
dumbcisco
“Having both Bolton (even though cast as a villain) and William Shawcross on Newnight was delicious. Telling it like it is.”
I don’t think the BBC will make that mistake again in the near future.
Abdul Bari Atwan is a regular on BBC 24’s Dateline London chaired these days by Gavin Esler. He (ABA) is allowed to rave uninterrupted and unchalleged by Esler or the other 3 journalists, even by those who you might consider would oppose his views. Let’s be charitable and assume that BBC policy is to let this particular loony tunes contributor say his bit and then to allow the other panellists to continue the discussion on a more rational basis (rational in this case = the usual anti-Bush, anti-American etc agenda but at lower volume and slower speed of address).
We’ll soon have the BBC pushing the Al Gore film on global warming (even though Columbia have taken his name off the posters as it damages audience appeal).
Here’s a pre-fisking of the movie, before Wark gushes over it.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/06/gores_truth_is_more_like_scien.html
Grimer:
He was one of Israel’s most wanted men in Gaza, and was thought to be involved in a 2003 attack on a US convoy.
Not too sure what to make of that last bit… Are they saying he ‘worked’ in Iraq, or did he attack American forces in Israel?
Market Participant ponted out above:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/114948315469804100/#286828
And the BBC fails to mention that it was a Diplomatic Convey, and that three security guards were killed and a US diplomat severely wounded.
The ambush occured in “Palestinian” controlled Gaza or the West Bank, I can’t remember which.
June 2006 | 123 » Web exclusive » Bias at the Beeb
The BBC’s coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict is riddled with bias
by Michael Gove&Mark Dooley
Michael Gove is a Conservative MP and author of “Celsius 7/7,” a study of Islamist terror published by Weidenfeld and Nicolson this month. Mark Dooley is a political commentator and columnist for the Sunday Independent
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7483
Rachel
Excellent article.
As I have said here before, I dealt with Quentin Thomas 20 years ago when he was in the broadcasting division of the Home Office. He was evasive, defensive of the BBC position, and proved to be totally wrong in the line he took. That abortive line cost the BBC at least £30 million in cash in 1986 prices, and directly resulted in the BBC losing any proper place in satellite TV.
anon at 12.21 was me
Biodegradable – it was in Gaza. I still find it incredible that the Americans appeared to have done nothing about it.
HYS has an reactively-moderated topic:
How will you watch the World Cup?
Tell us the story and send us the pictures of your World Cup
How are you preparing to support your national team in the World Cup?
We want to see your pictures and hear your stories of the tournament. English fans have already sent us photos of homes, pubs and places of work decked out with England flags. We also want to see pictures from across the world. Are you covering your home or bar in your national flag? Send your photos now to yourpics@bbc.co.uk
Where will you mark your team’s successes or failures? Have you heard some gossip that we haven’t reported?
Or have you made preparations to watch the action at home or in your local bar? Do you plan to watch the action from somewhere a little unusual? If so, we would like to hear from you.
We are also giving you the opportunity to produce short films using your 3G phone or video camera, showing your preparations, celebrations or commiserations.
Send your pictures and video to yourpics@bbc.co.uk, or by mms by dialling +44 (0)7725 100100 and 3G: +44 (0)7888 100 100.
Published: Wednesday, 31 May, 2006, 13:50 GMT 14:50 UK
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=2012&edition=1&ttl=20060609121835
Silly me, I thought I’d make a reactively-moderated contribution:
Added: Friday, 9 June, 2006, 11:15 GMT 12:15 UK
With difficulty.
The ‘non-political’ FIFA chose to censure Israel for firing at an empty Palestinian soccer field used to fire rockets at Israel while completely ignoring the fact that Palestinian rockets narrowly missed people on a soccer field on a kibbutz.
Yet rogue nation Iran is welcomed as an honoured member of the international sporting community.
I love soccer and will try to catch a few of the games. But I certainly wont be lining FIFA’s pockets to do so.
HYS deleted my comment after it was up for about a half an hour.
BBC bias? What bias!?
BBC blowing their own trumpet with trheir new Ross deal:
TV host Ross signs new BBC deal
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5063110.stm
So, how much will the Ross deal cost licence fee payers? Strange, the BBC article doesn’t tell us.
Ross wooed back to BBC with £18m deal
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=389872&in_page_id=1773
£18million over 3 years? Methinks the BBC have far too much money.
Bryan,
It looks like the “Palestinians” are trying to use the World Cup as an excuse for a hudna:
Palestinian fighter urges truce during World Cup
Zakariyah Zubaidi, a commander of the Aksa Martyrs’ Brigade, said a few weeks of peace and security was what was needed from both sides so that everybody could enjoy the football. “We are a nation that encourages sports and we, like other nations, like to watch and to follow the World Cup in peace and security,” Zubaidi said in the town of Jenin.
That’ll be why they previously threatened to kill Arabs who played a “friendly” match against an Israeli team.
“We undertake to be committed to calm so that our neighbours, the Israelis, can also feel at ease watching the World Cup in peace,” he said, adding that he hoped Israel would suspend patrols in towns in the occupied West Bank.
Sure, that would be handy wouldn’t it? A good chance to move more weapons and explosives in.
Meanwhile the Beeb thinks its all about money:
World Cup unity in the West Bank
It is about the only issue Israelis and Palestinians can agree upon. The TV subscription rates to watch the football World Cup are too high.
World cup peace.
Like El Salvador and Honduras in 1969 presumably.
Hmmm, well the Paleolithics would like to set the agenda with yet another false truce, but the Israelis cottoned on to the trick long ago.
I’ve also observed that every time the Israelis are pounding the terrorists particularly effectively they shout “truce.”
OT, sorry completely off subject, but I feel some of you (even if one) might benefit from this information:
extremely vicious computer virus
Subject: Fw: Please Read and Send Out ASAP
1. Emails with pictures of Osama Bin-Laden hanged are being sent and the moment that you open these emails your computer will crash and you will not be able to fix it!
This e-mail is being distributed through countries around the globe, but mainly in the US and Israel.
Don’t be inconsiderate; send this warning to
whomever you know.
If you get an email along the lines of “Osama Bin
Laden Captured” or “Osama Hanged” don’t open the attachment.
2. Please read the attached warning issued today.
PLEASE FORWARD THIS WARNING AMONG FRIENDS, FAMILY AND CONTACTS: ;
You should be alert during the next days:
Do not open any message with an attached filed
called “Invitation” regardless of who sent it .
It is a virus that opens an Olympic Torch which “burns” the whole hard disc C of your computer. This virus will be received from someone who has your e-mail address in his/her contact list, that is why you should send this e-mail to all your contacts. It is better to receive this message 25 times than to receive the virus and open it.
If you receive a mail called “invitation”, though sent by a friend, do not open it and shut down your computer immediately.
This is the worst virus announced by CNN, it has been classified by Microsoft as the most destructive virus ever.
This virus was discovered by McAfee yesterday, and there is no repair yet for this kind of virus.
This virus simply destroys the Zero Sector of the Hard Disc, & gt; where the vital information is kept.
SEND THIS E-MAIL TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW, COPY THIS E-MAIL AND SEND IT TO YOUR FRIENDS AND REMEMBER: IF YOU SEND IT TO THEM, YOU WILL BENEFIT ALL OF US.
Zarqawi ‘survived initial strike’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5064590.stm
“Zarqawi had “mumbled something indistinguishable but it was very short”, the US spokesman added.
Bet the Beeb are looking for a ‘human rights’ angle here. It’s highly likely his last words were “Allah Akbar..” or similar….
Rachel:
It’s a hoax. Please try to check these things out before spamming!!
http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/olympicvirus.html
as is the other one
http://antivirus.about.com/od/emailhoaxes/a/osamahanged.htm
Rachel,
Its always a good idea to check these things at snopes.com before forwarding to all your friends thus making a fool of yourself.
I’d also suggest that its hardly ever a good idea to post “virus warnings” on blogs or discussion forums.
see here: http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/invitation.asp
and here: http://www.snopes.com/computer/virus/osama.asp
(if you get an email that says to forward it to all your friends, please forget that i am your friend…)
Virus Hoaxes and the Real Dangers They Pose
I took The Boulder Pledge:
“Under no circumstances will I ever purchase
anything offered to me as the result of an
unsolicited email message. Nor will I forward
chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or
virus warnings to large numbers of others.
This is my contribution to the survival of
the online community.”
The Boulder Pledge
A simple part of the solution to the spam problem,
devised by Roger Ebert at the Conference on World
Affairs at the University of Colorado. (He announced
this pledge in his column in Yahoo! Internet Life’s
December 1996 issue.)
🙂
Substitute “BBC” for Democrats in the headline here and it still fits :
http://www.scrappleface.com/?p=2278
I hope the BBC will pass on this warning to plumbers not to watch the World Cup :
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1162
Hmmm, but what happens when it’s not ‘cry wolf’?
About four years ago, new to the computer world, I was using an old computer with, I think, a ‘V-catch’ anti-virus when I got a virus called ‘klez 2’. Or something like that. A box appeared on the screen giving me a few choices as to what to do about it. One of them, I recall, was ‘quarrantine’.
As I was scratching my head and wondering what to do I noticed that there was a counter counting down from 20 to 0. When it reached 0 it switched the computer off. A computer expert friend managed to extract most of the info but couldn’t get it going again and it had to join the big computer in the sky.
Well, I was pissed off at having my comment deleted from DHYS so I posted another one, managing to get myself banned from posting on their site:
Added: Friday, 9 June, 2006, 13:48 GMT 14:48 UK
I post a comment that obeys the House Rules, employs no swear words and contributes to the topic, indicating why I will be watching the World Cup with difficulty. Yet your censors delete it.
I don’t suppose it has anything to do with my writing about FIFA wagging its finger at Israel while warmly embracing the soccer team of rogue nation Iran?
And you call this your blog?! You should find out what a blog is!
That one lasted about ten minutes before they deleted it as well.
So I posted this one:
To the HYS censor with his/her trigger finger on the ‘delete’ key, this is a topic about sport. You might like to find out what the word means!
In return I got this message:
Sorry. User Bryan not allowed to post.
I see I’m now blocked from posting on any of their topics but strangely enough I can still recommend posts.
If they had a complaints procedure worth anything I’d complain, but it’s probably not worth the effort.
In the old days, they could get away with their censorship – but not with the blogosphere!
Bryan,
Hmmm, but what happens when it’s not ‘cry wolf’?
I have been online since 1996 and have never recieved a genuine virus warning. To avoid “crying wolf” you should simply check that any warning you receive is genuine before forwarding it to others.
You could subscribe to one of the many virus companies’ mailing lists to be advised of new viruses, but literally hundreds of new viruses appear each and every day. See here: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/
Your PC cannot become infected simply by receiving an attachment in an email – you must open that attachment for it to work.
The best advice is to simply practice “safe computing”, like safe sex; do not open attachments that come from people you don’t know. Many viruses send themselves out to all the email addresses they find on an infected computer so it may appear to come from somebody you know. Discourage your contacts from sending you unsollicited attachments and do not open any attachments you are not expecting. Before sending attachments email the recipient first and ask if you may.
The simplest solution of all is to use a Mac.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/viruses.html
Apologies to all for going off topic, but you did ask 😉
The BBC’s macro/template gets stuck:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5065008.stm
For many months, the Israelis have been pounding away at open areas such as fields and orchards in an effort to prevent Palestinian militants using them to fire their home-made missile into crudely made missiles into nearby Israeli territory.
Home made crudely made clichés all rolled into one rarely cause damage to the Palestinian cause.
‘Rachel, Its always a good idea to check these things at snopes.com before forwarding to all your friends thus making a fool of yourself. ‘
Good principle. Why not apply it to all the loony-toons conspiracy theories about so-called BBC bias that so disfigure this blog?
Just a thought.
Isn’t all the intelligence work that went into tracking and eliminating Al Z a clear case of racial profiling, since all the surveillance would have been concentrated on dusky people of a middle eastern appearance?
It’s a disgrace. And isn’t it discrimination to pick out just 1 person?
I wonder what gorgeous george would say.
re-virus,
thanks for advice