“Some critics suggest …”
This report on a church organisation helping out women who are the victims of sex trafficers: A ‘tiny drop in the ocean’
It contains a completely unneccessary comment about “some critics suggest that if the homes are run by the Church there is a chance its beliefs will be imposed on victims around issues such as abortion.” without identifying the critics.
It’s a nasty and snide comment that wouldn’t be applied if the charity had been run by anyone who wasn’t a Catholic nun,
Thomas Bridge
Annoying both sides.
I’ve just had a look at your Biased BBC blog. I have to ask : if the BBC has such an apparently blatant left-wing bias, how come it has regularly upset both right-wing *and* left-wing British governments since 1923?
Seriously, with the obvious exception of the WW2 Churchill administration, every single British government that has existed since the inception of the BBC has complained that the Corporation was out to get it. Harold Wilson, as Labour a Prime Minister as you could get, *loathed* the BBC. Jim Callaghan often complained that the BBC was out to get his government. Naturally, Blair has plenty of reasons to hate the BBC. And what about the MI5 vetting of BBC staff, as detailed here : link
Gareth
Actually, Churchill was no exception.
One of the best put-downs of lefty liberals I’ve read recently comes from the leftish Harry’s Place:
http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2006/09/30/bad_to_the_bone.php
Obergruppenfuhrer Anon –
it’s clear from your post that you don’t give a toss about the lives of anyone in the region other than those of Israeli citizens
Just to be clear, if those people intend to kill Israelis, or aid and abet the killing of Israelis, then I sincerely hope they are killed before they can kill.
The whole Zionist enterprise … And here we go. Scratch any ‘concerned’ liberal and there’s a fair chance a Judenhass lefty will come whining out.
I already said what I think of people who attack others and hide behind anonymity. The loathsome Jew-baiter who signed as Anonymous this time just shows why anonymity on comment threads is a sure sign of villainy.
OK Lets have a bit of calm. I posted my initial comment – which seems to have caused a firestorm in a teacup to illustrate 2 points.
1. That the BBC Moderator has no problem with allowing
anti-Semitic comments on the BBC board. And here I am referring
to this comment specifically. ” agree with some people here,
Let’s give hamas the funds to kill Jewish people cause Europe did
not finish the job. US Airspace, chi, United States” Which even
if it was posted by the Chief Rabbi of Israel still qualifies it
as anti-emetic and I as a Non practicing Moslem can explain
this to any REASONABLE EDUCATED person.
2. I wanted to draw attention to the typical readership of the
BBC and their worldview – and low and behold what happens Anon
(who in all probability is a non Moslem hard core leftist) goes
to all this trouble and proves my point for me with his various
ill thought comments of which the most outstanding example is
this tirade which is typical of the BBC leftist worldview.”
“The whole Zionist enterprise has been compared to the
transplantation of an organ into the body of a human being. The
natural immunity system rises up against the foreign implant,
the body mobilizes all its power to reject it. The doctors use a
heavy dosage of medicines in order to overcome the rejection.
That can go on for a long time, sometimes until the eventual
death of the body itself, including the transplant”
I see so – according to our reasonable philo-semite Anon,
Zionism is a deadly virus in the body politic of the Middle East
that has to be removed (exterminated ?) or else lead to the termination of the “natural” body politic of the Middle East
which is presumably Arabism and Islam.
The problem with people who share Anon’s view is that they are
typically uneducated in the basics of the history of the Near
East. Anon efore you waste your time and more importantly our time
go to wikipedia and READ a little about the history of the
Jewish people in Israel and the other peoples of the region such
as the Copts in Egypt, the Zorastrians in Iran, the Hindus in
India, the Armenians the Assyrian Christians, and you will soon
discover that these beliefs that were indigenous to the peoples
of the region predate Islam by thousands of years.
The culture and religious beliefs of all these people were wiped out through the genocidal wars of conquest of the Rashidiun under the banner Islam in the 7/8th Century. The Rashidiun went on to create the first Calipahate – through force. [An important point the Pope recently touched on].
The impact on my country Iran – which is the cornerstone of what has been misappropriated as “Islamic culture” was even more devastating than that of the utterly ruthless Mongols. The language of Arabic and the notion of Arabism was imposed over time throughout the region and incidentally reawakened by the British in the early 20th Century as part of their geo-political struggle with Germany and Russia.
So if you want to discuss “foreign implant” and “natural immunity systems” (you wouldn’t be a German eugenics doctor by any chance would you Anon) you need to get your cart and horse in the right order. Islam is the devastating virus that has almost totally eradicated the indigenous cultures and beliefs of what was the world’s richest reservoir of culture dating back to the earliest antiquity. With the eradication of indigenous culture and identity continuing right down to the present day – look up “Buddhas of Bamiyan” Anon in wikipedia for a recent example. The destruction that Islam has wielded has been so utter that ignorant people like you believe that Islam was the indigenous belief system of Palestine and the Middle East.
The Jewish people in Israel, the Greeks, the Spanish are amongst the very few peoples that have been able to overthrow the yolk of Islam from their countries. They have done so by clinging to their true cultural identity.
So before you start preaching to one and all here. READ and EDUCATE yourself. If you manage to do that you may even see Islamic propaganda for what it is. If you aren’t capable of this Anon dont worry you still have a number of options you can go to a Madrassa in Pakistan and either take the path of Jihad, join the BBC, or become a Mullah.
I dont blame you completely for your ignorance. Your understanding of the Middle East doesnt come from book – but from hack journalists like Fisk and the MSM.
I couldnt avoid the “German eugenics” swipe at Anon. Its just too easy to label him that way.
Its interesting and very revaling how the Left has subconciously adopted the language of the extreame right in discussing Israel … with constant references to “forgein implants” and “immune systems” and the need for “surgical removal” and “cleansing.”
The more they scream that they are not anti-Semite the more they sould like the common Nazi Jew-baiters.
Pete from London writes exactly what I think of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. If the so called ‘Palestinians’ (sorry for the ‘BBCism’) were rational by our standards, they would cooperate with Israel, work in Israel and invite Israeli investment to their territories. This would bring economic prosperity to the Palestinian territories. The evidence of this can be found if you study the GDP per capita of Palestinian territories before Intifada. It was higher than corresponding figure in Egypt. When the Intifada started, the standard of living in the Palestinian territories dropped, but it was compensated by the economic aid provided by EU and US after the Oslo accords.
However, the grievances against Israel lie deeper than the economic benefit that would surely follow if peaceful settlement were to be reached.
And as for Muslim Jew Baiters you dont have to go much farther than here to read about them,
http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/
and here to see them
http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=15
Qardawi and an assortment of similar filth with extended sermons for Anon’s benefit.
Its good to know who you are in bed with before you let them stick it to you Anon. LOL
Alan Man
Just think of where the Palestinians, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan would be if they they had simply let Israel be! Israelis created, in just a few decades, a magnificent nation out of desert and scrub, immediately after the Holocaust whilst defying five wars of aggression against it and a never-ending campaign of genocide, whilst accommodating a large Arab minority with full rights. In this remarkable respect, Anon is right that Israel is a ‘foreign body’ – no Arab nation could dream of matching Israel’s incredible achievements.
But then I don’t think any Arab nation would be allowed to even attempt to follow Israel’s example: too many terrorists, gangsters and funders would have to start washing dishes for a living, socialistic, despotic Arab regimes would no longer have the Jewish villain to blame for their ills and European leftists would have no useful Palestinian idiots to fight their proxy war against the US.
Bijan Daneshmand:
I knew that such a comment would attract the typical flame about jew hating.
“Its interesting and very revaling how the Left has subconciously adopted the language of the extreame right in discussing Israel … with constant references to “forgein implants” and “immune systems” and the need for “surgical removal” and “cleansing.”
As usual it is claimed I wrote the Israel was a “deadly virus” that has “needed” (i’m sorry did I say that …err no) to be “removed” or exterminated. Anyone bothering to read the comment would see that I said no such thing. An organ and a deadly virus are one and the same thing to you ? That’s interesting.
The Jewish people in Israel, the Greeks, the Spanish are amongst the very few peoples that have been able to overthrow the yolk of Islam from their countries. They have done so by clinging to their true cultural identity.
So before you start preaching to one and all here. READ and EDUCATE yourself.
Right, so I can go away and read about how Israel was once a muslim country ? er..or that the population of the country was swollen vastly in a few decades and the natives were burned out their homes by men who would go onto become prime ministers of Israel. I don’t need a history lesson from yout mate. Encouraging non-secularism by having an immigration policy that favours people of one religion, terrorising the incumbent power into cutting and running with bombing campaigns…etc. “Holding on to their cultural identity.”
What about this “Assyrian Christians” : had cultutral beliefs that predated Islam by “thousands of years”. Aye, whatever.
Anyway, according to that logic the same could be said about celts, picts and the other tribes who populated the UK before Christianity arrived.
“The destruction that Islam has wielded has been so utter that ignorant people like you believe that Islam was the indigenous belief system of Palestine and the Middle East.”
No, I believe it is. You may not, in fact you obviously don’t, like it, but that’s how the majority of people there choose to live.
The main point is that in my view, Israel must not rely upon constant US funding for it’s own sake. Given the geo-strategic nature of middle east politics it’s not possible to say that the US administration will be so generous towards Israel in a couple of generations time, i.e. when there is no oil there.
But the bit about German eugenics was the funniest. It would be wrong to say that I didn’t like Israelis or respect that the culture of the country is far more liberal than the surrounding states. The opinions I expressed, and indeed, the analogy about the foreign organ is one that I got from reading the opinions of an Israeli Jew. What is particulary sad is that when the opinion of someone who actually lives in Israel and has good reason to be concerned
about her future generations expresses an opinion about the future direction Israel should take, you lot pretty much describe him as an animal. It’s utter nonsense and you show a complete contempt for the very values you claim to want to defend from “islamo-fascists”.
Anon
I just want to focus on one thing you said, in fact you call it ‘the main point’. Let’s forget about history and cultures and whatever, let’s just look at one, definite point you make in your most recent post above:
The main point is that in my view, Israel must not rely upon constant US funding for it’s own sake. Given the geo-strategic nature of middle east politics it’s not possible to say that the US administration will be so generous towards Israel in a couple of generations time, i.e. when there is no oil there.
I’m struggling to understand your thinking. If the US is only interested in the region for the oil, and that oil flows from Arab lands, then why is the US currently funding Israel? Surely, if the US genuinely is only interested in Arab oil, it would make sense to ingratiate themselves with Arab regimes by pulling the plug on Israel and leaving it to the tender mercies of its neighbours? Why would the US pull the plug after the oil runs out?
Hi Pete,
I think it’s pretty obvious that the US are primarily interested in the region because they want to be able to impress military power on the region if they ever need to, and because they want to ensure the flow of oil is constant. In all of this is was by no means a forgone clonculsion that Israel would become the United States little sister.
Theodor Herzl, in the founding document of the Zionist movement: “In Palestine, we shall constitute for Europe a part of the wall against Asia, and serve as the vanguard of civilization against barbarism.” Without knowing, Olmert almost repeated this formula in his justification of his war, in order to please President Bush.
It happens from time to time in the United States that somebody invents an empty but easily digested slogan, which then dominates the public discourse for some time. It seems that the more stupid the slogan is, the better its chances of becoming the guiding light for academia and the media – until another slogan appears and supersedes it. The latest example is the slogan “Clash of Civilizations.
What clash of ideas is there between Muslim Indonesia and Christian Chile? What eternal struggle between Poland and Morocco? What is it that unifies Malaysia and Kosovo, two Muslim nations? Or two Christian nations like Sweden and Ethiopia?
In what way are the ideas of the West more sublime than those of the East? The Jews that fled the flames of the auto-da-fe of the Christian Inquisition in Spain were received with open arms by the Muslim Ottoman Empire. The most cultured of European nations democratically elected Adolf Hitler as its leader and perpetrated the Holocaust, without the Pope raising his voice in protest.
In what way are the spiritual values of the United States, today’s Empire of the West, superior to those of the same man who coined the phrase “Clash of civilisations”, also said “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.” In the West, too, women won the vote only in the 20th century, and slavery was abolished there only in the second half of the 19th. And in the leading nation of the West, fundamentalism is now also raising its head.
What interest, have the Israelis in volunteering to be a political and military vanguard of the West in this imagined clash?
Of course, this entire story of the clash of civilizations is nothing but an ideological cover for something that has no connection with ideas and values: the determination of the United States to dominate the world’s resources, and especially oil.
The US is fighting against Iran, because Iran has a key role in the region where the most important oil reserves in the world are located. Not only does Iran itself sit on huge oil deposits, but through its revolutionary Islamic ideology it also menaces American control over the near-by oil countries. The declining resource oil becomes more and more essential in the modern economy.
He who controls the oil controls the world.
Does Cable Street still matter?
Shouts of “go back to Palestine” and “dirty Jew” were common at rallies…
Where would you like the Jews to “go back to” now “Anon”?
Biodegradable
Did you even read my post or did you just see another chance to attack ?
Anon
If you weren’t so ill informed, you wouldn’t be so easy to parody. LOL
This is what you stated in your original post.
“The whole Zionist enterprise has been compared to the transplantation of an organ into the body of a human being. The natural immunity system rises up against the foreign implant, the body mobilizes all its power to reject it. The doctors use a heavy dosage of medicines in order to overcome the rejection. That can go on for a long time, sometimes until the eventual death of the body itself, including the transplant”
The whole thrust of your borrowed analogy being that Israel is a foreign organ inserted against natural law on the Middle East. Have the intellectual honesty of standing by what you state. Dont cut and run at the first sight of a challenge.
When you make such a statement you are denying the inalienable right of the Jewish people to their own JEWISH & SECULAR homeland. They are as entitled to it as the Spanish are to a Catholic Spain, the Greeks to an Orthodox Christian Greece, the Indians to a Hindu India …
Right, so I can go away and read about how Israel was once a muslim country ? er..or that the population of the country was swollen vastly in a few decades and the natives were burned out their homes by men who would go onto become prime ministers of Israel. I don’t need a history lesson from yout mate.”
You obviously haven’t read anything yet since you believe that “Israel was once a Muslim country?” Israel was never a Muslim country. The JEWISH homeland was exactly that – JEWISH. Its your perogative to agree with many anti-semites that the JEWS are not entitled to their land but that is your opinion its not HISTORICAL FACT.
What about this “Assyrian Christians” : had cultural beliefs that predated Islam by “thousands of years”. Aye, whatever.
Whatever indeed. Why don’t you tell us which existed first. Islam or the Assyrian Church. I’ll make it real easy for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East
“Christian communities existed in the regions of Assyria, Babylonia, and Persia as early as the second century. A council is known to have been held at Seleucia-Ctesiphon about 325 to deal with jurisdictional conflicts among the leading bishops.”
Now tell us Anon. When did the first Muslims appear? LOL
You then go on to mischaracterise the birth of Israel and inadvertently you explain exactly what is going on today throughout Europe.
Encouraging non-secularism by having an immigration policy that favors people of one religion, terrorising the incumbent power into cutting and running with bombing campaigns…etc. “Holding on to their cultural identity.”
No, I believe it is. You may not, in fact you obviously don’t, like it, but that’s how the majority of people there choose to live.
You and your ilk can believe whatever you want but it doesn’t make it historical truth. This is the problem that the BBC has. They constantly misake their own propaganda for FACT.
A problem you share with this guy …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving
“The main point is that in my view, Israel must not rely upon constant US funding for it’s own sake. Given the geo-strategic nature of middle east politics it’s not possible to say that the US administration will be so generous towards Israel in a couple of generations time, i.e. when there is no oil there.”
Israel doesn’t rely on American financial support. This is just another worn out fallacy that the left wing trots out from time to time. DYOFR and find out what US finicial aid is as a percentage of the budgets of Israel, Egypt, and Palestinian Authority. Then come back and post your information here.
opinions I expressed, and indeed, the analogy about the foreign organ is one that I got from reading the opinions of an Israeli Jew. What is particularly sad is that when the opinion of someone who actually lives in Israel and has good reason to be concerned
about her future generations expresses an opinion about the future direction Israel should take, you lot pretty much describe him as an animal.
Being an Israeli Jew doesn’t make someone exempt from making anti-Semitic comments. Just as being a Muslim doesn’t make me exempt from attacking those you support the political Radicalisation of Islam and the damage that it has caused throughout the world. What’s more don’t use the standard BBC tactic of not naming the people you quote. Who is this Israeli Jew who made the comments you refer to? Also – as I suggested before don’t just regurgitate the opinions of others. Take time to read widely (Here I suggest a wide spectrum of un-biased Books not MSM, SOAS, LSE, BBC trash written on the fly for political effect, then come back and tell us your own viewpoint.
Anon
I’m not bothering with this for three reasons:
1. You do not even have the courtesy to answer a simple question when put to you.
2. I don’t believe that someone can be as ill-informed as you and that you are actually lying in your posts. I don’t like being lied to.
3. I believe you’re a muslim, but you just don’t have the balls to say so. Again, I don’t like people trying to deceive me.
Bijan Daneshmand: That is my view point, hence why I stated it.
Lets go through your points one by one :
1) “When you make such a statement you are denying the inalienable right of the Jewish people to their own JEWISH & SECULAR homeland”
Ok, you say it is an “inalienable” right for someone who has no familial ties with the land on which Israel is on whatsoever to return there and live. Not all practioners of the Jewish faith can trace a blood line back to the middle east. This as you well know is a highly contraversial topic. Face facts, there is nothing secular about blatant bias in favour of practitioners of a single religion, is this impossible for you to grasp ?
2) “You obviously haven’t read anything yet since you believe that “Israel was once a Muslim country?”
Unsuprisingly I am well aware of this, but it was you who said “The Jewish people in Israel..have been able to overthrow the yolk of Islam from their countries” Another fact which you cannot dispute is that the people of Israel did not throw off the “yolk of islam” from their country – Israel. Do yourself a favour and check what you write.
3) “Whatever indeed. Why don’t you tell us which existed first. Islam or the Assyrian Church.”
Did it predate it by “thousands of years” as you claimed ? No. About 6 or 700 I think again that was my point.
4) Being an Israeli Jew doesn’t make someone exempt from making anti-Semitic comments.
It generally precludes someone from being prejedicued against jews unless they discriminate against their own family. Perhaps you would explain how this works in practice ?
5) “Israel doesn’t rely on American financial support. This is just another worn out fallacy that the left wing trots out from time to time. DYOFR and find out what US finicial aid is as a percentage of the budgets of Israel, Egypt, and Palestinian Authority. Then come back and post your information here. “
So Israel didn’t need the $80bn that the US has given it so far and could manage just fine without it. You know as well as I do that Israel has received more money, i.e. both military and economic aid than any of those other countries you mention. This, not surprisingly, is a factor of the percieved strategic value of the special relationship to the US.
The “organ” metaphor was made by a member of Gush Shalom who as a group are generally better informed about what’s best for their country than you I’ll wager.
Biodegradable
Did you even read my post or did you just see another chance to attack ?
Anon | 04.10.06 – 1:59 pm
Yes I did read it, but it’s the same rant you’ve posted several times before. ie: US will lose interest in Israel when the oil runs out: Israel shouldn’t exist anyway: Israel doesn’t belong in the Middle East: Jews run the world: Jews Kill children to make matzos with their blood.
You haven’t answered my question as usual. Doesn’t the fact that Fascists shouted “Jews back to Palestine” in the 1930s tell you anything about history?
“Palestine” is the name the Romans gave to Israel (Eretz Yisroel) to disown the Jews of their rightful homeland. Those stubborn Jews continued to live there since before Islam was invented until the present day. The Brits, having brought an end to the Ottoman Empire called the area “Palestine” and called the Jewish inhabitants of the “Holy Land” ‘Palestinians’. (Sir) Oswald Moslely and his blackshirts wanted the Jews of Britain to “return” to “Palestine”.
So I repeat my question; where would you like the Jews to return to now, or when the US loses interest in them?
“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
(PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein, March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw.)
Or more recently:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52279
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’ stated recognition of Israel’s right to exist is part of a “political calculation” aimed at ultimately destroying the Jewish state, a terror group leader and member of Abbas’ Fatah party told WND in an interview.
The leader said the Fatah party does not recognize Israel and that any final accord that doesn’t include flooding the Jewish state with millions of Palestinians will not be supported by the Fatah party and will lead to Palestinian civil war.
“The base of our Fatah movement keeps dreaming of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jaffa and Acco,” said Abu Ahmed, Fatah member and leader of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in the northern Gaza Strip. “There is no change in our position. Abbas recognizes Israel because of pressure that the Zionists and the Americans are exercising on him. We understand this is part of his obligations and political calculations.”
Biodegradable
I don’t think “the jews” should go anywhere, nor should Israel be destroyed. I fail to see why you constantly try to assign this belief to me. Infact everything that I have posted has been, in my opinion, constructive towards securing peace in the region. You on the other hand seem quite happy with the status quo of conflict after conflict after conflict.
Pete_london
“3. I believe you’re a muslim, but you just don’t have the balls to say so. Again, I don’t like people trying to deceive me.”
I am not a muslim, and i couldn’t give a flying fuck if you think I am. You couldn’t tell your arse from your elbow and when you say you think I’m a muslim without “the balls” to say so, it only goes to show what ballsack you are.
What did I say that was “ill-informed” ? And i did answer your question, the US supports Israel because it wants the oil rich middle east to be secure and amenable to its needs. No arab state would launch a war of destruction against Israel because the US would intervene and spread its influence in the region, just as it is doing in Iraq on the flimsiest of pretexes. The US wants to control the oil and those who produce it, and with the exception of Iran it pretty much does that. Why don’t you tell a misninformed idiot like me, just why the US places such importance on its relationship with Israel, we’ve established it’s not because of the “Jewish lobby”, but equally if it were about democracy – there are many non democracies it also supports.
And pete – you never answered my question either so I’ll repeat it for you, I am genuinely interested in your response.
What interest, have the Israelis in volunteering to be a political and military vanguard of the West in this imagined clash of civilisations ?
everything that I have posted has been, in my opinion, constructive towards securing peace in the region.
Anon | 04.10.06 – 4:02 pm
ROTFLMFAO! 😆
Anon
I’ll make one more attempt to clear up your addled head.
That is my view point, hence why I stated it.
Thus far all you have done by your own admission is regurgitate what you have read and heard. You have not bothered to present any FACTS.
1) Ok, you say it is an “inalienable” right for someone who has no familial ties with the land on which Israel is on whatsoever to return there and live. Not all practioners of the Jewish faith can trace a blood line back to the middle east. This as you well know is a highly controversial topic. Face facts, there is nothing secular about blatant bias in favor of practitioners of a single religion, is this impossible for you to grasp ?
The Khazar Jews apart, there are no Jews who cant trace their bloodlines to Israel. The paramount qualification of being Jewish is through the mother’s bloodline. This unlike the majority of “Palestinians” who in fact have nothing to do with the original “Sea Peoples” (DYOR and look into the origin the moniker that has been used since Roman times to describe Israel) or the Canaanites. Unlike you I am not obsessed with Blood, and earth. Frankly the “so called” Palestinians also have a right to a homeland but they have no right whatsoever to create that Homeland on the totality of the land of Israel in order to satisfy an Islamic fiction.
2) “You obviously haven’t read anything yet since you believe that “Israel was once a Muslim country?”
Unsurprisingly I am well aware of this, but it was you who said “The Jewish people in Israel.. have been able to overthrow the yolk of Islam from their countries” Another fact which you cannot dispute is that the people of Israel did not throw off the “yolk of Islam” from their country – Israel.
I never stated that Israel was not occupied. Its been occupied by Imperialist powers since Roman times. The last occupiers were Ottoman Turks. Read here to find out more about what their religion was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire
3) “Whatever indeed. Why don’t you tell us which existed first. Islam or the Assyrian Church.”
No. About 6 or 700 I think again that was my point.
Now you are really being pathetic here. Is that the best you can do? You make no mention of the antiquity of the Hindus, Jews, Zoroastrians, Greeks, and other peoples I mentioned. But at least you concede the point that the upstarts are the Moslems – which is very different from the initial picture you attempted to paint with Islam being somehow the indigenous belief system of the Near East.
4) Being an Israeli Jew doesn’t make someone exempt from making anti-Semitic comments.
It generally precludes someone from being prejudiced against Jews unless they discriminate against their own family. Perhaps you would explain how this works in practice ?
Denying the Jewish people a Jewish homeland is a denial of their right to live as practicing Jews free of foreign intimidation and domination. Its clear anti-Semitism and it has Jewish proponents as well who typically disguise their attacks under the banner of Anti-Zionism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_anti-Semitism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-semetism
and especially here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#Jewish_anti-Zionism
5) So Israel didn’t need the $80bn that the US has given it so far and could manage just fine without it. You know as well as I do that Israel has received more money, i.e. both military and economic aid than any of those other countries you mention. This, not surprisingly, is a factor of the percieved strategic value of the special relationship to the US.
Why dont you come back with sources for the figures you throw around. Im sure no Israeli will deny that the United States has been Israel’s strongest ally. But you seem shy of addressing my point, that as a percentage of their GDP the Palestinians and Egyptians and other Arab countries have taken far higher amounts of military and political aid.
The “organ” metaphor was made by a member of Gush Shalom who as a group are generally better informed about what’s best for their country than you I’ll wager.
Oh I see the Gush Shalom that comes of with anti-semetic like this ..
“On the 9/11 “disaster” and the Jewish dominance in the NeoCons”
“Flattering account of Arafat’s accomplishments, written for Arafat’s birthday”
Ever free peoples has its marginal groups of dissenters. Again you are relying on a well worn BBC trick to try and pass off Gush Shalom’s biased extreme left views as mainstream Israeli ones.
Its a bit revealing that Anon and his ilk seem to have no concern with the rights of the Turks left in Greece and Bulgaria or the Moslems left in Spain (Andalusia) and Italy (Sicily).
One never hear calls amongst leftists for these lands to be handed back to their Moslem communities … but when it comes to Israel they go red in tooth and claw to denonouce Zionism …. and all the time they cry out … We are not anti-Semites.
Anonymous writes:
/Denying the Jewish people a Jewish homeland is a denial of their right to live as practicing (sic) Jews free of foreign intimidation and domination./
Would you still espouse this sentiment if the word ‘Kurdish’ or ‘Basque’ were to replace ‘Jewish’?
Here’s somebody else who vehemently denies being a Jew hater – he only criticises Israeli policy and the Zionist Conspiracy™ try to shut him up, poor diddums:
Ken contests Nazi jibe suspension
Witch-hunt
“I don’t want anyone to suggest that Mr Livingstone is anti-Semitic”, said Mr Justice Collins. “There has never been any indication of that. That is absolutely clear. No-one can think he was making a remark like that because of anti-Semitism.”
If Mr Livingstone’s appeal fails, he will be responsible for paying his own legal costs, estimated at £80,000.
But he has vowed to take the case all the way to the House of Lords even though it could cost “hundreds of thousands of pounds” if he loses.
The mayor accused the Board of Deputies of British Jews of making the original complaint only to try to “hush” him up over his views on the Middle East.
However the Board denies there was ever a witch-hunt against Mr Livingstone.
(Note the use of the cuddly and warm term ‘Ken’, without ‘quotes’ in the headline rather than the more correct Livingstone. Can we look forward to articles on George W Bush referring to him as ‘George’?
… thought not.
Would you still espouse this sentiment if the word ‘Kurdish’ or ‘Basque’ were to replace ‘Jewish’?
Franx | 04.10.06 – 4:33 pm
Yes, but ‘Kurdish’ and ‘Basque’ are not religions.
Mr Justice Collins has no business being a judge. He’s yet another ‘liberal’ interested only in spreading his filthy creed, regardless of justice or common sense. One of his recent rulings was that parking fines aren’t ‘fines’, they are ‘civil responsibilities’. He’s a man who’ll turn justice on its head for convenience.
http://neilherron.blogspot.com/2006/07/justice-collins-judgment-now-has.html
Oh, and Ken Livingstone is an anti-semite. So let him sue me.
there are no Jews who cant trace their bloodlines to Israel
This is utter nonsense. Juadism is a religous belief not a race. What about african jews !? You really are full of it.
But at least you concede the point that the upstarts are the Moslems – which is very different from the initial picture you attempted to paint with Islam being somehow the indigenous belief system of the Near East.
Where does this line of logic end, canadians can come and live in their million in the highlands of scotland because they can trace bloodlines to there and still practice the same religion ?
Denying the Jewish people a Jewish homeland is a denial of their right to live as practicing Jews free of foreign intimidation and domination. Its clear anti-Semitism and it has Jewish proponents as well who typically disguise their attacks under the banner of Anti-Zionism.
Here is the one part of this argument I never get. This is clear anti-Zionism, you need to get a grip. Anti semitism would be critisicng the jewish faith and its practitioners, saying that they shouldn’t be allowed to practice their faith anywhere, including teh countries they live in. Anti-Zionism is something entirely different as is obvious to anyone except a self rightous moron like you. You can’t make up a definition of a term to suite your argument, try as you might.
Anon:
there are no Jews who cant trace their bloodlines to Israel
This is utter nonsense. Juadism is a religous belief not a race.
Wrong again SFB!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#DNA_clues
Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium
What about african jews !?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel#DNA_evidence
It’s so boring debunking bigots… yawn…
8)
You are being utterly ridiculous, as per usual. Anyone can convert to Juadism. They don’t undergo DNA screening to check that they have some sort of blood line that can be traced to people of middle eastern origin. You know this to be true otherwise you truly are a fool.
Since you say that Juadism is both a religion and a race, perhaps you can point out some common traits that all members of the Jewish race have ? Thought not.
http://www.mindspring.com/~jaypsand/
“while other groups have accepted Judaism in recent years because it is the religion that most resonates with their lives.”
Anon:
You are being utterly ridiculous, as per usual.
No I’m not. You dispute that Jews are a race, I’ve provided evidence of unique DNA.
Anyone can convert to Juadism.
You mean Judaism?
How many do, and for what reasons? And are they really Jews? (Hint: It’s not up to you, a non-Jew to decide)
see here:
http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/0609/prison.php
They don’t undergo DNA screening to check that they have some sort of blood line that can be traced to people of middle eastern origin.
No they don’t.
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
Anti-Semitism and the definition of Jew
Although there are many reasons that the definition of Jewishness is important within the Jewish community, the question “who is a Jew?” has often been used by anti-Semites as a precursor to persecution or discrimination against Jews as an ethnic group.
The Nazis, for example, ruled that anyone with one Jewish grandparent was either a Jew or a Mischling, and therefore subject to persecution (see Nuremberg Laws). Similarly, Neo-Nazis and modern anti-Semites often attempt to trace the ancestry of individuals to determine the existence of “Jewish blood” in a family tree, rather like the racist efforts to identify individuals with “African blood” in recent American history.
Sensitivity over the historical and present use of the definition of Jewishness for the purposes of ethnic persecution makes some Jews uncomfortable when discussing the topic outside of the context of religious identity.
Does any of the above sound familiar Anon? Can we relate it to you and your arguments or are we simply trying to stifle criticism of Israel?
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Jewish law or Halacha does not define who is a Jew confessionally, by faith. No central authority or ruling body in Judaism determines who is a Jew. Nor does membership in a synagogue or local Jewish community make one a Jew. Furthermore, a person who no longer wishes to be a Jew is still considered to be Jewish. It should come as no surprise that many famous Ashkenazi Jews have denied being Jewish.
By tradition, being a Jew follows the maternal lineage. Therefore, even if one doesn’t know they have Jewish blood or if they convert to another religion, from the Jewish point of view, their genetic heritage makes them and their own descendants Jews.
The following examples illustrate this aspect of Jewish identity.
*Apostasy. A Jew who converts to another religion is considered an apostate, but he is still a Jew. Felix Mendelssohn, who converted to Protestantism and dedicated a symphony to the Reformation was an Ashkenazi Jew.
*Atheism. A Jew who becomes an atheist is still considered a Jew. Karl Marx, an atheist whose Jewish mother and father had converted to Christianity before he was born, was an Ashkenazi Jew.
*Hidden Identity. A Jew whose identity was hidden, who was raised in another religion, is still a Jew. Madeleine Albright, the former American Secretary of State whose Jewish parents converted to Catholicism to escape persecution in the Holocaust and then hid their ancestry, is an Ashkenazi Jew by a traditional halakic definition, even though she did not know of her identity until she became an adult, and was already a professing Catholic.
*Renunciation. A Jew who renounces and even condemns Judaism is still a Jew. Bobby Fischer, the international chess star who has claimed that the Holocaust was a Jewish invention and a lie, is an Ashkenazi Jew.
Anon:
there are no Jews who cant trace their bloodlines to Israel
Are you sure you dont work at the BBC? Given your ability to make up quotes and twist words you are well qualified to. Dont create statements and attribute them to me. Its a sloppy form of polemic.
This is utter nonsense. Juadism is a religous belief not a race. What about african jews !? You really are full of it.
Im tired of setting you straight Anon. Your ignorance is breath taking. This is the last link you get from me you race obsessed idiot – from here on in DYOFR. Before “the religion of peace” and their “prophet” Muhhamed exterminated the Jews of the Arabian pennisula there were many Jewish tribes on the peninsula including the Yemen and Horn of Africa. No one knows their exact origins but no one disputes that fact that many were Jewish and Black.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falasha
“In the past secular scholars were divided on the origins of the Beta Israel; whether they were the descendants of an Israelite tribe, or converted by Jews living in Yemen, or by the Jewish community in southern Egypt (Elephantine). Some have conjectured, based on references in the Bible, that they could be remnants of an ancient Jewish community in the region. For example in the Book of Isaiah the author prophesies that “the Lord will bring back a remnant of his people…returning them to the land of Israel from Assyria, Lower Egypt, Upper Egypt, Ethiopia, Elam, Babylonia, Hamath, and all the distant coastlands” (Isaiah 11:11). In the Book of Zephaniah it is also prophesied that “from beyond the rivers of Ethiopia, my worshipers, even the daughter of my dispersed people, will bring my offering” (Zephaniah 3:10). Both books are believed to have been written during the 8th and 7th century B.C.”
Where does this line of logic end, canadians can come and live in their million in the highlands of scotland because they can trace bloodlines to there and still practice the same religion ?
By Canadians I suppose you mean the white peoples who within the last 200 years have decimated the indigenous “red indians” of Canada. Why are you trying to obfuscate the issue by bringing in meaningless analogies?
You ask rhetorically where the “logic” ends. Maybe it ends with Moslems emigrating en mass to Europe and and taking it over country by country by introducing Sharia Law.
Here is the one part of this argument I never get. This is clear anti-Zionism, you need to get a grip. Anti semitism would be critisicng the jewish faith and its practitioners, saying that they shouldn’t be allowed to practice their faith anywhere, including the countries they live in. Anti-Zionism is something entirely different as is obvious to anyone except a self rightous moron like you. You can’t make up a definition of a term to suite your argument, try as you might.
Whats you point here you pathetic creature? That you really like Jews but not in instances where they are concentrated in large numbers and in control of their own destiny? Stop being so mealy mouthed. Come out with it.
What is your agenda? I for one am increasingly convinced that you are a left wing lunatic who has a mean racist streak … with a heavy dose of anti-Semetism thrown in. These are the underlying factors that motivate you. Maybe they are subcontious but its present with every “argument” that you attempt to put forward.
If you didnt have this streak you wouldnt constantly appropriate the language of racists with talk of bloodlines, organs, transplants, operations …. you are so typical of a confused uneducated individual so typical of the “New” Left.
Anon
If the Americans control Middle East oil why do they allow the Arabs to sell it at about 30 times the marginal cost of production?
Enough of this nonsense. I’ve put forward a point which has been widely ridiculed. So let’s hear yours
Why does the US have such a relationship with Israel ?
As you are only too keen to point out, it’s not because of powerful lobby groups like AIPAC and it’s not so that the US can influence an area of the world that by 2020 will hold 80% of the most important strategic resource there is. So why ?
So why is it ?
Enough of this nonsense. I’ve put forward a point which has been widely ridiculed. So let’s hear yours
Why does the US have such a relationship with Israel ?
Thats easy. Its because America is controlled by the Jews. LOL
Thats easy. Its because America is controlled by the Jews. LOL
Bijan Daneshmand | 04.10.06 – 11:56 pm
:+:
And they’re not all Republican, neo-con, born again Christians either.
“Democratic Party Chairman Howard Dean, whose wife and children are Jewish…”
Eat your ? out Anon!
.lol:
Eat your heart out Anon!
😆
Very entertaining debate, gentlemen.
Leaving aside all the other stuff, America’s support for Israel could have something to do with the fact that both countries share a love of hard work, achievement and progress and an aversion to sitting on one’s butt with one’s hand out for alms. And also an aversion to pointing one’s butt up towards the heavens while praying.
That said, there is also obviously a powerful element in the US government – in particular the State Department – which would far rather rub shoulders with Arabs than Jews.
I’ll try to post some related info up on the open thread.
Oh, and Anon you should try some introspection. I’m sure you will be amazed at what you discover about yourself.
For goodness sake, I thought you lot liked “straight answers” but when you are asked a question you refuse to answer it and instead try to take the piss. Seriously, I would like to know why you think the US has spent so much of it’s money helping Israel given the size of the country. You know my opinion and it’s not because “america is run by jews”. At least Bryan gives an honest answer.
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