Titillating it may be, but the BBC’s reporting on Cuba’s centenarians here strikes me as downright dishonest.
Scott produced an excellent post on this earlier, last month in fact. The BBC, it seems, has a policy of presenting Cuba as a first world country, at least in matters of health. Talk about stretching the fabric of reality.
Notice how the information is filtered through a)A state social health program and B)A state authorised newspaper. Notice too those little details: “More than 60% of them [the Cuban “centenarians” “studied”] had parents who also lived to be over 100″ (this “fact” one among a doubtful morass).
Oookay- so the hundred year old interviewees could verify the ages of their hundred year old parents, right? Or the Cubans just have great records of births 120 years ago or earlier?
Difficult though it is to refute propaganda, I’d venture to say this report is a pile of horse manure. Needless to say I found it because it was among the Beeb’s most clicked.
When you investigate it, the BBC’s approach is quite staggering. After a little search I came across this little factoid from this reputable sourcewhich shows the situation for journalists in Cuba:
“In 2006, Cuba is still the second biggest prison in the world for journalists after China. Three years ago it was the first, following an unprecedented crackdown which saw the arrest of 27 journalists, speedily tried and sentenced for alleged collaboration with the United States”
And the BBC merrily recycles the authorised output? Unbelievable.
And whie the BBC is telling us how great it is in Cuba…..
They are not telling us what is happening in Britain….
http://www.lep.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=73&ArticleID=1799071
In 2001 the BBC interviewed three ‘centenarians’ sunning themselves on a bench outside the Karl Marx Golden Age Club in Havanna. The first said that he was 105 yrs old and owed his longevity to hard work in the service of Socialism, abstinence from alcohol and the example of ‘el Presidente’ Castro.
The second said that he was 120 yrs old and owed his long, happy life to living the Socialist ideal, only ever drinking water or strong, Cuban coffee and the leadership of ‘el Comandante’ Fidel Castro.
When asked by the BBC interviewer how he had reached such an advanced age the third answered, “Screw Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz! I drink at least three bottles of Cuban rum every day. I’ve never worked a day in my life. I’m only thirty-three”! 😆
BTW I always thought it was Stalin era Georgians who claimed to live so long.
You beat me to that comment on how Stalin loved to hear tales of his compatriots living a long time, deegee. I have always assumed that exaggerating the percentage of very old Georgians / Cubans was an indirect way of flattering the relevant great leader by implying that *his* glorious reign was likely to last for a long time. Pushing that line is particularly relevant in Cuba now, what with Castro’s frailty.
Any bets whether or not Castro’s body is going to be preserved (like Lenin’s) even if he doesn’t reach the magical age of 100? My guess is “most definetely”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lenin%27s_body.jpg
Firstly, this doesn’t appear to be an especially serious article, so describing it as propaganda is overegging it a bit. The report title is “Cigars and sex ‘boost Cuba lives'”. Get some perspective.
In common with this blog’s almost unerring habit of adopting GOP talking points as its own, you are flogging a dead horse.
Cuba has much to dislike about it, but whether you like it or not, healthcare systems are typically rated on their outcomes, not on whether an old man somewhere walks in his own poo, or as in the UK, people suffer all sorts of calamities.
Cuban life expectancy is similar to that of developed countries. It does this on a [relative] pittance. Castro may be a despot, but his healthcare system, as adjudged by its outcomes, epidemiologists and the WHO is a success.
Differentanon:
Based on outcomes as reported by the regime, epidemiologists working on figures provided by the regime, and WHO reports based on information provided by the regime — and you believe what they say?
Try this:
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm
Includes photos and everything.
Countdown to “it’s CIA funded propaganda” in three… two… one…
Stoatman,
I’ve addressed this point: I don’t doubt it is easy to find examples of Cuba’s healthcare being poor, just as a committed researcher can find the same about hospitals in the UK, France, US or just about any developed country.
Is that all you need to write off a healthcare system? 10 photos?
But do I believe the WHO’s data on health outcomes or qualified epidemiologists over a series of cherry picked photos? Yes.
Can you actually find evidence that contradicts the data that Cuba’s healthcare system delivers health outcomes similar to those of [more highly funded] first world developed countries?
There are somewhat more than 10 photos on that page. Perhaps you’d like to scroll down and have a look at them.
The health-care claims that come out of Cuba read like all the dodgy statistics that came out of the Soviet Union, and will be proven wrong in the same manner once the regime finally falls.
You are asking me to provide the impossible — how exactly is one supposed to acquire accurate statistics from a totalitarian closed society?
OK. You’ve won me over. I’ll accept your cherry picked photos from an anti-Cuba site are more accurate than several decades of data from the primary global organisation devoted to monitoring health outcomes.
Countdown to “the WHO is leftist funded propaganda” in three… two… one…
DifferentAnon proves
“Lenin is not dead after all…”
Maybe Al Beeb will give you a job once you’ve applied via one of their Guardian ads.
P.S.: You could at least call yourself LeftieAnon2 so we know it’s not LeftieAnon1
I had to laugh out loud at the whole ‘GOP talking points’ meme there DifferentAnon. That damned right wing conspiracy is stretching all the way across the atlantic to elements of the British middle class! Run for the hills!!!
DifferentAnon
Therealcuba.com is not an Anti-Cuba site, it is made by a Cuban who lived in the Island and is now in exile, and it is visited by cubans mainly in exile because the Cubans in the Island are not allowed to have internet (although some have it illegaly). How do I know??? very simple: I am Cuban and I came to the US just six years ago.
Right now, there is a Dengue fever pandemic in Havana due to the poor sanitary conditions in Cuba. The mosquito Aedes Aegypties, who transmits Dengue, used to reproduce only in clear water, but it mutated and now it can reproduce in fecal water (and believe me there is plenty of that in the streets of Havana). Cuba’s healthcare system is horrible, there are barely any medicines for cubans, the hospital beds are in such bad conditions that you even have to bring your own light bulb, bed sheets, and cleaning tools because the bathrooms are all full of feces. There is a shortage of doctors in Cuba because Castro sends them away to Venezuela, and all the medical equipment is from the 1950’s.
Of course, for you Different Anon, who are a foreigner, you will be treated in special hospitals with high technology equipment, to which cubans are PROHIBITED to attend, because Castro’s internal embargo is only for cuban citizens, not for rich tourists who feed his dictatorship with dollars.
Cubans are not even allowed to enter the famous Varadero beach because it is only for tourists, and they are prohibited to stay at tourists hotels such as Melia Cohiba, Hotel Nacional, Hotel Riviera, in Havana.
What were you saying again Different Anon?? the next time you want to talk $#@$$#, I suggest you get informed, because it is insulting to me that there are cubans risking their lives in rafts to achieve freedom, or suffering 20-30 years sentences in cuban jails with deplorable conditions just for speaking against the government, and you still have the audacity to ignorantly speak in favor of a dictator.
If you would rather listen to a non-cuban like the BBC reporter who gets his information from Castro’s newspaper and TV, then why don’t you instead ask Castro, he will probably tell you the same lies that the BBC publishes.
Just for your information, ever since the Human Rights Committee was established they have found the Cuban government responsable for violating human rights in Cuba, sadly no one has done anything about it, and as I can see, the BBC cares more about promoting Castro’s communist propaganda than about revealing the truth and helping cubans become free.
Good on you, Diana! All freedom loving people rally behind you and your fellow countrymen (well, all except the usual suspects who can’t stand the idea of individuals having freedoms – we know who they are).
And the educational system ha ha ha ha give me a break
Sure you learn how to read and write, but that is as far as it goes, because all you are given to read was RE-EDITED after the revolution to favor Castro and his band of terrorists that would put bombs in restaurants, theaters, and public places to cause unrest among the people and create what Lennin called a “revolutionary situation.”
Watching foreign TV, listening to foreign radio, and even to foreign music such as the Beatles was classified by the government as “ideological diversionism” and the first two are currenlty prohibited and sanctioned by law.
Moreover, to be admitted to the University you are required to attend to Communist Party activities and to ALL the rallies that Castro orders.
They indoctrinate kids in school so that they write and say what the socialist government expects them to, and they are taught since they are little that the US is the enemy, and that it is to blame for all the problems in Cuba.
By the Law of Patria Potestad signed by Castro in 1961, parents are prohibited to teach their children anything that is not in accordance with the communist/socialist doctrine. Especifically, they are prohibited to teach their children any beliefs or religions, and the communist government and its institutions have absolute authority over the children under 20 years old. There is a 3 year obligatory military service (draft) for boys when they turn 15, and if you refuse to enlist you go to jail.
You are forced to go to work in labor camps during highschool or you get kicked out of school. My school which was in El Vedado, in Havana, only had one microscope for the entire school and all the books, including the science books, were old and outdated. The National Library in Havana has six floors, but the public is only given access to the first floor and the rest of the floors are “closed” (prohibited) to the public.
You can visit therealcuba.com and get information on the firing squads that Castro made in Cuba in La Cabana (Havana), led by Ernesto Che Guevara, where many innocent cubans were executed without due process of law and many were sentenced to long years in prison, simply for not agreeing with Castro’s communist government.
thanks disillusioned_german, I appreciate the support, especially because I know that many europeans ignorantly believe Castro’s propaganda machine, and it is up to everyone else to spread the truth about Cuba and about many dictatorships such as Iran and Venezuela.
thanks 🙂
Diana: That’s exactly why we’re here… Many Europeans believe Castro’s propaganda machine because Al Beeb (maybe I should call it El Beeb in this case) and other news outfits see Cuba as the beacon of freedom – especially compared to that evil Bush empire.
Sadly dissidents (or apostates in the case of the muslim “religion”) rarely have the opportunity to make their views heard.
Without the internet I’d probably be as blind as DifferentAnon and the others… On second thought – they’re not blind. Socialism is their holy grail and Fidel C. is one of their heroes. Nothing you say will make a difference to them, I’m afraid. I wish they’d leave to actually live in Cuba.
Diana,
Just to address a couple of points:
“What were you saying again Different Anon?? the next time you want to talk $#@$$#, I suggest you get informed, because it is insulting to me that there are cubans risking their lives in rafts to achieve freedom.”
I’m not discussing Cubans’ quality of life, nor their freedom. I’ve already stated I believe Castro is a despot. Find another strawman.
It may challenge your ideology, but the evidence is clear: whatever issues one might have with Castro’s Cuba, and there are plenty, the health outcomes achieved by Cuba’s health system are equivalent to those of the first world, achieved on second world budgets.
You’ve given no evidence that this isn’t true. As with d_g, it is amusing to note that an objective understanding of what the WHO data tells you suddenly makes you a leftist. Or Lenin.
Healthcare systems are judged on outcomes: if you can’t grasp this and bang on about the ills of Castro’s education system or policy of frees speech, you are continuing to miss the point.
I had to laugh out loud at the whole ‘GOP talking points’ meme there DifferentAnon.
Let’s see: this site almost invariably supports Democrats over Republicans, hates Clinton, unequivocally supports the War on Iraq, and Israel, regualrly praises notably hard right commenters such as Powerline, Malkin, Steyn, LGF who toe exactly the GOP line, believes that any and all criticism of the US is a de facto criticism of Bush, dislikes the UN intensely.
Nope – no similarlity with GOP talking points at all.
It’s not a vast conspiracy or any other kind of conspiracy, although its notable that *you* do see the BBC’s supposed political position as a vast conspiracy.
Er.. Republicans over Democrats.
DifferentAnon:
Either I missed the sarcasm or you are confusing this essentially British emphasis site with the American Little Green Footballs?
I don’t remember this site giving much space to the issues and commentators you mention.
Diana,
Just because you fled Cuba, and lived there all your life previously doesn’t make you know more about life there than someone who incredulously swallows MSM output written by journos (only 80% leftwing) who have to appease the regime to stay out of jail.
/sarcasm
Are the left insane?
ACO – At what point does believing the WHO’s data = “swallowing output” from leftwing Cuban journos? Are any of you actually going to disprove the WHO or is this all about strawmen?
Or are you suggesting the WHO are unwittingly compiling their data from leftwing Cuban journalists? It’s certainly an interesting take on things.
“Either I missed the sarcasm or you are confusing this essentially British emphasis site with the American Little Green Footballs?”
It’s a good point, deegee. I can’t be the first to notice that this site’s focus increasingly resembles closely that of LGF.
Different Anon said:
“It may challenge your ideology, but the evidence is clear: whatever issues one might have with Castro’s Cuba, and there are plenty, the health outcomes achieved by Cuba’s health system are equivalent to those of the first world, achieved on second world budgets.
You’ve given no evidence that this isn’t true. As with d_g, it is amusing to note that an objective understanding of what the WHO data tells you suddenly makes you a leftist. Or Lenin.”
I believe that the fact that I LIVED in Cuba as a Cuban citizen and that YOU HAVEN’T and neither has the WHO, NOR the BBC reporter, kind of makes ME a more valuable source than YOU people who have never been treated in a cuban hospital for Cubans.
IT is not the leftist Cuban journors, IT IS THE FACT THAT THE ONLY PERMITTED JOURNAL and TV stations ARE OWNED BY THE COMMUNIST REGIME, there is no left or right in Cuba, IT IS JUST ABSOLUTE COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM IN ANY INFORMATION SOURCE. Do you still NOT see the bias in any “official information” given by the communist dictatorship???
You might want to be aware that any reporter or inspector that the Cuban regime ALLOWS to enter the Island is taken to the facilities which the Cuban regime CHOOSES. These are the facilities for foreigners, NOT FOR CUBAN CITIZENS. The inspectors ARE NOT ALLOWED TO GO WHEREVER THEY WANT, NO NO NO, THEY are GUIDED by the government in the tour, and since they are not native to the country, they would not be able and would not be allowed to report on the real facilities established for Cubans.
If you would rather believe some inspector who had to ASK for permission to ENTER, rather than a cuban who lived there for the most part of her life and who still has family there, then your problem is that you don’t want to believe the truth. Castro has enough money to pay any “official reporter or inspector” to say what he wants, and since they really never cared about the cubans’ situation, they will gladly accept or will be threatened to accept. (according to Forbes Magazine it was estimated that Castro’s fortune is at least around 900 million dollars) I only have my word and the truth of living there, if still you would rather believe him, then I hope that your ignorance and that of many others does not contribute to cubans being enslaved for another 50 years.
Diana,
DifferentAnon does not even have the courtesy or the good grace to respond to the points you have made. I found your description of Cuba both horrifying and fascinating. It’s like something straight out of Orwell’s Nineteen-Eighty-Four.
But your first-hand experience will make no impression on DifferentAnon because his/her mind is made up that Cuba is a good place in which to fall ill. The BBC said so, and therefore it must be true.
I know quite a few left-wingers who have swung to the centre or to the right. I’m one of them. And there are others on this site. It’s a matter of growing up.
But the funny thing is, I don’t know of too many people who have started out on the right and swung left. I wonder why?!
Well, the BBC has only good things to say about Cuba. So Cuba must be paradise, right?
“Well, the BBC has only good things to say about Cuba. So Cuba must be paradise, right?”
Bryan: It was the WHO, actually, amongst other, objective analysts of healthcare systems.
And once again, the strawman. And, for the third time, I haven’t claimed Cuba is a paradise. I’ve stated that because the health outcomes are comparable to those of developed countries, its healthcare system deserves to be rated as effective. Once again, this is based on data from a variety of public health experts and the WHO.
Thus far, for having the temerity to point out that healthcare data places Cuba relatively highly, I am assumed to have taken an ideological position, which tells you more about the critic than me, I’m afraid.
Diana’s point raises the only relevant criticism thus far: that epidemiologists and healthcare professionals analysing Cuba are being fed duff, corrupt data. If that is the case, then an awful lot of experts are being fooled with apparently little evidence for it.
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/short/35/4/817
http://www.pitt.edu/~Super1/lecture/lec9881/index.htm
Click to access 0203CUBAFINAL.pdf
The sad thing is Bryan that Castro has made it a paradise for foreigners but a hell hole for cubans. Prostitution in Cuba is very common because it is a way of escaping the island by marrying a foreigner. The cuban citizen has no rights in Cuba, but the foreigners have rights as long as they have money and as long as they don’t question the regime.
Castro’s internal embargo is only for Cubans, because foreigners can have anything they want and can afford.
Here is something I found in the WHO’s website of a Dengue outbreak in 1997, the cuban regime has not made it official that there is a Dengue pandemic right now, but I doubt they will anyways. They were trying to hide it at the Non-Alligned Summit in September so they isolated the entire building where the members were staying, and the members were given a tour of the city only through selected places the government chose.
1997 – Dengue in Cuba
18 June 1997
Disease Outbreak Reported
On 16 June 1997, the Ministry of Health officially reported that 826 cases of dengue (3 deaths) have occurred in the city of Santiago de Cuba, located in the southernmost part of the island. The affected area is 36.5 sq km with a population of 168,000 and the total area of this city of 465,000 inhabitants is 184 sq km. The infections were first recognized in January this year. Dengue has been confirmed by the “Pedro Kouri” Institute of Tropical Medicine, a PAHO/WHO Collaborating Centre for the Study of Viral Diseases. This represents the first reported cases of dengue in Cuba since 1981 when ca. 350,000 cases and 158 deaths occurred. A report with further details will shortly be available.
http://www.who.int/csr/don/1997_06_18/en/index.html
How do you explain this Different Anon??? Do you still doubt what I’m saying or are you just going to change the subject???
“If that is the case, then an awful lot of experts are being fooled with apparently little evidence for it.”
Diff said-
Eastern Europe was proven to have cooked the books on their healthcare #’s- the WHO ate it up for 20-30 years.
Since there is no free press- or indeed free anything in Cuba, it is a little hard to prove wrong.
Of course- do you think some Swedish doctor is going to spend half his career trying to disprove Cuba’s statistics? All he’d getfor his trouble is disbelief from the Commies/Socialists /Greens who’ve worshipped Castro the last 40 years.
Cuba probably HAS decent healthcare- the people get the bare bones nutrition/care that 3rd worlder’s never see- but don’t get to eat drink themselves sick like Americans/First worlders. Is that worth 40 years of dictatorship?
Different Anon you trully have reading problems.
From Your OWN SOURCES
One of the sources of the first article is ‘Dr Gustavo Aldereguia Lima’, who works at the Hospital Universitario, Cienfuegos, Cuba. Meaning his salary comes from the cuban regime as does ANY SALARY for any working Cuban, and he is still stuck in Cuba, so what do you think he is going to say??? the truth??? Of course NOT, otherwise the cuban government will fire him and can even send him to jail for “counter revolutionary activities” (in other words: telling the truth).
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/short/35/4/817
From your second source, which by the way is a cheapy presentation with NO Bibliography or reference to any source of information, we get that there are “350 000 health workers”
http://www.pitt.edu/~Super1/lecture/lec9881/011.htm
But wait, according to the WHO there are 66 567 physicians, 83 880 nurses and 9 841 dentists in Cuba, which if you know some math IT DOES NOT ADD UP TO 350 000. What??? a conflict of sources Different Anon??? and note that these numbers according to the WHO probably include the doctors who Castro sends away to Venezuela, so in reality there are less doctors in Cuba than what is reported.
http://www3.who.int/whosis/core/core_select_process.cfm?country=cub&indicators=healthpersonnel&intYear_select=all&language=en
From your third source we get that among the professors is Jorge Perez Avila who “has an appointment as an Assitant Professor of Medicine and Clinical Pharmacology at the University of Havana where he has taught since 1982” in other words, he ALSO gets paid by the cuban regime because Castro does not appoint any anti-communist professionals to any position in Cuba. IN FACT to be admitted to the University of Havana you MUST be member of a communist organization and YOU MUST BE an ACTIVE COMMUNIST.
Another of the professors is Arachu Castro who “recently organized the Conference on the Impact of Health System Reforms …… co-sponsored by the Pan American Health Organization, the Cuban Ministry of Public Health, the WHO …..” (Page A2 and A3)
Click to access 0203CUBAFINAL.pdf
Wait the “Cuban Ministry of Public Health,” isen’t that a cuban government organization, thus it is controlled and managed by the cuban regime????
And you still wonder why these people say good things about the Cuban healthcare?? Do you interpretation problems???
these people are sponsored by the regime Anon
And FYI the cuban regime sponsors trips of University professors and students to Cuba, and OF COURSE these people are also given the tour of SELECTED facilities, which are for foreigners.
Even some US legislators have gone to these sponsored trips, representative Charles Rangel, Democrat of NY went to one of them, what a coincidence he was Democrat, right??!!
I wonder why the cuban regime wants to have some influence over US legislators and “intellectuals” at Universities??? hmmm I am sure the regime has very innocent intentions (sarcasm)
All these trips are part of Castro’s political propaganda machine (lies, lies and more lies about Cuba, to turn the world into his own communist empire, see reference at Venezuela)
Here is the link related to representative Rangel and his trip to Cuba sponsored by the communist regime, which Rangel omitted in the Congressional disclosure travel forms
http://www.publicintegrity.org/powertrips/report.aspx?aid=171
Diana,
He doubts what you are saying and he’s going to change the subject.
Anon,
The attitude of the BBC to Cuba is an example of a holy cow that the BBC simply will not investigate lest it discover something unpleasant. Iran is another example.
You have a unique opportunity here to learn something about Cuba from someone who knows what’s going on there. Aren’t you at all interested in finding out more? Or would that disturb your neat preconceptions?
Heh thanks for that min-rant DifferentAnon. Seeing as you have no idea as to my postion as regards the BBC, I’ll be grateful if you could withdraw your suggestion that I believe there is any sort of BBC conspiracy.
“I’ll be grateful if you could withdraw your suggestion that I believe there is any sort of BBC conspiracy.”
Don’t be so priggish. If you want to use hyperbole, don’t be surprised if it is used back at you.
Well I hope at least you’ve learnt a lesson on jumping to conclusions.