about the trial over the awful murder of PC Sharon Beshenivsky in Bradford. Today’s proceedings have centered on Yusuf Jamma, described by the BBC in each instance as being ‘from Birmingham’.
Er, no. Birmingham might be where he was arrested, but he’s from Somalia, the same Somalia that was his apparent reason for being given refuge in our country, and the same Somalia to which his brother, Mustaf Jama, is believed to have fled to avoid British justice. I guess when the chips were down he figured that Somalia wasn’t so bad after all.
Mr Griffin likes to think his ideas on Islam as a threat to the West pre-dates most peoples – after all, he did predict that we would suffer a home-grown Islamic terrorist threat well before 7 July.
I think it fair to say that the Jewish people have been aware of the threat of Islam a long time before Mr Griffin. Perhaps the recent change in opinion of the BNP is nothing more than cynical politics – I doubt Mr Griffin is the first politician to do a u-turn.
Maybe, just maybe though, the BNP, along with Israel, MI5, and some on this board are now collectively aware that we, the non-believers, are under attack, and that there now exists some common ground.
As another poster has touched on, perhaps the biggest perpetrators of anti-semitism nowadays are not the BNP, but the BBC, albeit it in more subtle tones. Do the left-leaning on this board deny such bias?
Further to Griffin & the BNP, it seems to me that Mary Kenny misses the mark in today’s Times
THE WORD “fascist” is thrown around lightly these days, either as a catch-all boo-word, or parcelled indiscriminately with “racist”. After the acquittal of Nick Griffin, Peter Hain described the British National Party as “racist and fascist”, a common portmanteau expression. But this is sloppy thinking, and a loss to the distinction in language.
A Fascist may be a racist but he is not necessarily so; a racist is not always a Fascist either
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2457171,00.html
Surely Hain (for once) is correct. The BNP is both racist & fascist.
You genuinely believe Griffin now supports all things Jewish?
I suggest you talk to a few members of the Jewish community, who wouldn’t trust him as far as they could throw him.
He might have a different focus now, but unless you’ve noticed some great volte face in which Griffin renounces his past form of holocaust denial and Jew-baiting, you’re much mistaken.
Sorry – last comment directed at pieman.
John Reith, I am able to form my own opinions about the BBC without consulting Mr Griffin.
I don’t care what Mr Griffin thinks about the BBC which was what you were talking about, was it not?
If you’re going to throw in comments completely off thread then please don’t bother.
will
Surely Hain (for once) is correct. The BNP is both racist & fascist.
Without wishing to get bogged down in the minutiae, I’d put them more in the racist and socialist camp. In fact, if you’re taking the BNP at face value, it’s now just in the socialist camp, having dropped its racist rhetoric. Given that the nationalism is still present (nothing wrong with that, on its own), the BNP has clearly filled the void left by Old Labour. No wonder the Nu Arbeits are getting worried, the Old Labour voters look to have found a home for themselves at last.
John Reith
Maybe you could find one example of my using “Al-Beeb” on these boards. Or the word “Preposterous”. Or evidence that I have “common ground with the BNP”. I think you are getting me mixed up with someone else. You still haven’t named the “5 or 6” BNP members yet. And unlike you, I am quoting correctly.
We welcome your debate on biased BBC matters, but your increasing tendency to throw out random and largely unprovable accusations against the posters on here is really quite odious. I await your response with interest.
Allan@Aberdeen saying the BNP are friends of Israel!
WTF, Reith! I copied text from the same BNP website that Reith visits which made quite clear what their current ‘thoughts’ are, and they are a helluva lot closer to mine on the issue of Israel’s right to exist than any output from the BBC. There is nothing emanating from the BBC which confirms Israel’s right to self-defence nor anything which puts into correct perspective the status of the so-called occupied territories.
On the BNP, I’m sure that most people here are smart enough to be careful about what they wish for. I have little doubt that Griffin is anti-Jewish and I certainly don’t want the BNP becoming more than an outlet for protest at the failure of the major parties to control immigration. But it is the BBC which gave the BNP their greatest publicity coup, and Reith should not be allowed to forget it.
DifferentAnon
Identifying some common ground, and supporting all things Jewish are worlds apart – do you intentionally misconstrue?
I certainly don’t think, or even implied that Mr Griffin supports all things Jewish – I bet he’s never been to a Bat Mitzvah in all his life. I am neither a fan nor a BNP voter, just that some of his more recent comments happen to ring true with me. I watch the news, I read the papers, and when I see Mr Griffin in court for saying “Islam is a wicked and vicious faith”, immediately followed by MI5 saying they know of 1600 potential (islamic) terrorists I can’t help but think he might have a point. And here is the common ground.
Personally, I can think of very many politicians I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw them, and this spans all parties. In terms of odious politicians, he is neither at the top, nor at the bottom of my rather long list.
You are rightly appalled by anti-semitism, but I’ll ask again, do you dispute such BBC bias?
Come on Mr Reith, who are the 5-6 supporters. As you know I would probably vote for them given the chance, so you only need 4-5 more.
I’d vote for them because I have most in common with them than any of the other parties. I am not a jew hater, I am not a racist, I just have concerns about immigration and crime. After successive years of my thoughts being ignored, I feel it’s time for a protest.
Maybe DA thinks I should riot like the poll tax rioters but I’m too busy at work and I really don’t agree with rioting. So I have to protest with my vote.
I bet that makes you really sick doesn’t it?
JimBob
“Maybe DA thinks I should riot like the poll tax rioters”
Are you going to spend all day fabricating opinions for me?
pieman
“You are rightly appalled by anti-semitism, but I’ll ask again, do you dispute such BBC bias?”
Yup, controversial though it is here, I do. In my view, that view is predicated on the belief that a) presenting unfavorable facts on Israel is de facto anti-Israeli b) that perceived anti-Israeli reporting is anti-semitic.
DA, you said above
“Ordinary” Britons have always been perfectly capable of expressing their political will – the poll tax riots
I took it from this to mean that I should protest by rioting, not by voting?
Besides you fabricate lies about ‘race war language’ yet are unable to give a valid example.
DifferentAnon
Thank you for answering my question openly.
As a matter of interest, searching google yields
“bbc anti-israel” finds 328,000 hits,
“bbc anti-jewish finds 302,000 hits, and
“bbc anti-semitic” finds 647,000 hits.
So although I respect your opinion, I will have to disagree.
Taking a cursory look at a few of these results, I note from the Guardian
“The Israeli government has written to the BBC accusing its Middle East correspondent, Orla Guerin, of anti-semitism and “total identification with the goals and methods of the Palestinian terror groups” over a report on a 16-year-old would-be suicide bomber last week.”
So it appears that I am not alone in confusing anti-semitism with anti-Israeli sentiment, so thank you for putting us all straight.
I thought from your initial response to me that you were very pro-Jew, now I am not so sure.
Besides you fabricate lies about ‘race war language’ yet are unable to give a valid example.
In your opinion
By any reasonable standard, the advocation of internment, of halting immigration through “undemocratic” means, and positing that Anglo-Saxon culture is fighting for survival in the face of immigration is precisely the language of race war.
DA, yes that’s my opinion, I am allowed one you know.
If you thought it was really ‘race war’ language you and Mr Reith would have Mr Blair’s gestapo down on this site in an instant and you know it.
DA – “undemocratic means”, I take it you mean war?
I see rioting as “undemocratic means”.
And you seem to think rioting is ok when it comes to poll tax?
pieman,
The antipathy of the Israeli government towards the BBC is well known, and I certainly won’t dispute the obvious fact that among a considerable number of people, the BBC is perceived to variously anti-Israeli or anti-semitic.
Two points, though: the Israeli government, its advocates and supporters are explicitly interested in promoting a version of events that is the most favorable to the causes they support. Nothing odd with that: the Palestinians – were they to be as organised and resourced – would no doubt lobby as vigorously for the narrative to reflect their views. It doesn’t mean they are right.
Accusations of anti-semitism largely stem from the perceived bias towards Israel, not, to my knowledge of Jews in general. You don’t find the Board of Deputies, for example, regularly railing against British stories prejudicial against British Jews.
As to whether I’m pro-Jew or not: I find such distinctions unhelpful. And would be distrustful of anyone who automatically described themselves as pro- or anti- any ethnic or religious group because it would imply those groups were both homogenous and either wholly good or wholly bad – the hallmarks of zealots and bigots respectively.
“If you thought it was really ‘race war’ language you and Mr Reith would have Mr Blair’s gestapo down on this site in an instant and you know it.”
JimBob, this habit of imagining nefarious views and deeds of another commenter is all rather tiresome.
If you persist, save you and me the time: spoof my login and just write “you’re a nazi” and then you can respond “you’re a bigger nazi” and just keep going until you get bored.
“And you seem to think rioting is ok when it comes to poll tax?”
Once again, put your strawmen away. Pointing out people riot or march as means of expressing their political will is not the same as endorsing their cause.
DA –
As to whether I’m pro-Jew or not: I find such distinctions unhelpful.
Only when it’s not you lefties pointing the finger at ‘racists’, ‘xenophobes’ and ‘islamophobes’, eh? But when it’s you in the hotseat, such distinctions suddenly become ‘unhelpful’! The chutzpah of you lefties is quite something to admirer. I bet you even typed that with a straight face.
Listen up, DA. We’re all adults around here, and unlike you mincing, poncy, cow-towing, apologetic, self-hating lefties, we nasty right wingers are unperturbed in the face of some straight talking. That’s why we right wingers built the greatest empire the world has ever known and spread the glories of British Civilsation to a world which didn’t deserve it, and you lefties haven’t stopped apologising for it since.
So come on, you can do it, just admit that you’re a Jew hater.
DA
Throwing the toys out of the pram now are we.
If it’s ‘tiresome’ don’t respond, or even better try a different site, then at least we could discuss BBC bias without you throwing in your childish cries of ‘racist’ all the time.
I was merely pointing out that rioting in my opinion is an “undemocratic mean” and “undemocratic mean” does not necessarily mean “war”.
Maybe you didn’t support the poll tax rioters but you say ordinary people can demonstrate by this means. So if we rioted about the BBC, would you listen? NO.
If people demonstrate by protest voting, would you listen then? NO.
“without you throwing in your childish cries of ‘racist’ all the time”
So you’ve now progressed from name calling to accusing other people of childishness. Did you type that with a straight face?
“I was merely pointing out that rioting in my opinion is an “undemocratic mean” and “undemocratic mean” does not necessarily mean “war”.”
Really? Because you specifically accused me of supporting poll tax rioters. An odd way to make the point indeed.
Incidentally, how do you think someone stops mass immigration by undemocratic means, which is what the original comment referred to?
“If people demonstrate by protest voting, would you listen then? NO.”
Do you debate as boorishly as this in person, telling the person opposite you what they are supposed to think and do?
Would you oppose the wholesale massacre of small puppies and small children? OF COURSE NOT because I’ve conveniently imagined you as a barbaric psychopath.
It doesn’t make for especially productive commenting, does it?
Fair play, P_L. You’ve made me laugh.
I’d give that one 8/10. A true pro would have slipped in something about me drinking a cappuccino, reading the Guardian and living in Islington, but it’s not a bad effort.
DA – And you said my posts were tiresome.
LOL
(glad you took the time to respond though)
Thank you DifferentAnon, we too have found some common ground.
I am equally distrustful of bodies that are pro- or anti- ethnic or religious groups, and this is perhaps where I came in. As our news is more and more dominated by the forces of Islam, I become more alarmed, and hence my admission to a mild but distrustful curiosity surrounding the recent trial of Mr Griffin.
You talk about the Israeli government being most favourable to the causes they support. When Iran’s president calls for Israel to be “wiped off the map”, what exactly is that cause that you appear to sneer at?
Out of interest, would you do deem Mr Ahmadinejad comments to be anti-semitic, or just simply anti-Israel – I’m not yet clear on how to distinguish between the two? If you think it wrong to call the BBC anti-semitic, is it justified to call them pro-Palestinian?
DA – Like you come to this site to listen to people’s views?
I can understand Mr Reith defending his employer but you?
You spend your spare time defending an organisation that forces you to subsidise it, year in, year out.
It’s all kind of depressing really.
Anyway, on that boorish, tiresome note, I’m off for the weekend.
“You talk about the Israeli government being most favourable to the causes they support. When Iran’s president calls for Israel to be “wiped off the map”, what exactly is that cause that you appear to sneer at?”
Pieman, this is a non sequitur. To scroll back a bit: your argument was that the search results would indicate considerable support for the view that the BBC was anti-semitic. My point was that the Israeli government is quite vociferous in putting forward its agenda and therefore one would expect it to devote time and resources to pressurising the media. How this relates to sneering at the Iranian president’s desire to eliminate Israel isn’t clear to me – perhaps you can elaborate on your train of thought a little.
As for Ahmadinejad’s position. Read up here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel
Even taking the more sympathetic view of the Persian translation of his comments, Ahmadinejad’s track record of holocaust denial and reference to “The Jews” is pretty indicative of both anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism.
“If you think it wrong to call the BBC anti-semitic, is it justified to call them pro-Palestinian?”
Not in my book. And from experience, people who believe the BBC is pro-Palestinian by default believe it is biased against Israel and therefore anti-Semitic.
“hence my admission to a mild but distrustful curiosity surrounding the recent trial of Mr Griffin.”
See, if Griffin didn’t have such a history of race baiting and old skool white power anti-Jewish rhetoric, one might be able to take his concerns about immigration, assimilation, multiculturalism more credibly.
As it is, it’s a bit like watching Jonathan Porritt rock up on Top Gear and professing that he drives a Hummer but he’d you know, still like an open debate on C02.
DA
Do you think you’re addressing a bunch of cretins? You have the bloody cheek to come in here and direct people to a wiki site regarding Ahmaddinnerjacket and Iranian-Israeli relations? A site which quotes the known liar Juan Cole?
Jesus H Christ on a bike, you must think we’re as stupid as you are. From your wiki reference:
Translation of phrase ‘wiped off the map’
According to Cole, “Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian” and “He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse.”
This is your Juan Cole:
http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/correction_2/
Professor Juan Cole, currently being put to rights by Martin Kramer, apologises in a different style; he doesn’t really apologise. After claiming that Osama bin Laden had engineered September 11 “in response to the Israeli attack on the Jenin refugee camp”—an operation that took place seven months after 9/11—Cole wrote: “I post late at night and sometimes am sleepy and make mistakes … If someone wants to accuse me of occasionally making minor errors, then sure. I occasionally make minor errors.”
Hah! This go-to man for lefties, this known liar who has been quoted on a number of occasions by John Simpson, actually said that a supposed event (supposed, because it was proven to be a wicked lie against Israel) which took place in 2002, was the inspiration for 9/11.
This is also your Juan Cole:
http://sandbox.blog-city.com/making_cole_slaw_of_history.htm
http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/2005/07/london-bombers.html
As for Juan Cole’s translation of Amaddinerjacket’s speech, Christopher Hichens has already put Cole to the sword on that one. The man is a leftist and a propogandist for jihadis and you have the utter cheek to reference a web page which references him.
You’ll have to do alot bloody better than that.
Juan Cole!
The Cole Report: When it comes to Iraq he distorts, you decide
What Iran’s leaders are saying about Israel
http://www.slate.com/id/2140947/
Juan Cole is 10th rate…he is the embodiment of the mediocre…his sentences are syntactical train wrecks…it’s illiteracy, simply
http://www.radioblogger.com/#001591
Next you’re going to tell me MEMRI’s in league with Cole!
“The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly:
[T]his regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history”
DifferentAnon
To me, you seemed to suggest that the Israelis and their supporters were perhaps a bit quick off the mark in defending their corner sometimes. I wasn’t clear what your “causes they support” was driving at. One “cause” worthy of effort, I pondered, may be self-preservation in light of various threats from hostile countries, hence my non “non sequitur” mention of Iran.
Something that does surprise me though is your comment
“My point was that the Israeli government is quite vociferous in putting forward its agenda and therefore one would expect it to devote time and resources to pressurising the media”
Question to you, who is quoted as saying
“very few people in Britain are aware of the huge influence over the mass media exercised by a certain ethnic minority, namely the Jews”.
More common ground (but not with me this time)??
pieman
Not sure what you’re hinting at there. My position is perfectly clear: Israel has an overt policy using a wide range of tools to forward its agenda.
“Nothing odd with that: the Palestinians – were they to be as organised and resourced – would no doubt lobby as vigorously for the narrative to reflect their views.”
This is poles apart from some “Jooz control the media” schtick.
DA
Put your head on straight. I never said Cole mistranslated anything, I said he’s a liar. The row over that phrase was because Cole claimed that Amaddinnerjacket had no violent intent in claiming that Israel must be wiped from the pages of history.
He’s a liar, he’s a jihadi propogandist and he’s been cited on a number of occasions by John Simpson.
DA
By the way, whether Amaddinerjacket said that Israel “must be wiped from the pages of history” or “must be wiped from the map” is all moot in here. But I would like to know what you think he meant by it.
P_L – you suggested the whole page was balls – all that how dare you think we’re cretins etc – because it quoted Cole. Clearly, if the MEMRI translation is analogous to Cole’s one then it isn’t rubbish unless you think MEMRI is wrong too. Anyway, it’s irrelevant. I provided the link to give pieman some background, not to debate Cole.
I’m no expert on Persian, but I’d be inclined to think that anyone who went on to deny the holocaust probably meant exactly what most people understood him to mean – that they should be wiped out.
Whether he meant an explicit call to war or not I can’t tell. If he was halfway politically aware, he would have known that the leaders of Syria, Egypt and Jordan would sooner marry a pig than attempt a repeat of 1967.
Re-Different Anon:
anyone who uses the words “narrative” and “unhelpful” in the same post is beneath contempt, and you lot shd really stop feeding him
…otherwise we might get “inappropriate” in the next post
I’m afraid “Different Anon” is a “troll”. Trolls usually blitz a site with half-baked comments, turn all the discussion around to them and end up diverting the debate away from the original post. Unless we want “Different” to ruin every post at BiasedBBC I suggest we ignore his/her egocentric attempts at sidetracking threads. As they say, “Don’t Feed The Trolls”
[Deleted – does not appear to be from the usual DifferentAnon]
Edited By Siteowner
The above is a sock puppet, BTW.
I saw this device recently in connection with some Lithuanians who had committed some crime or other – the perpetrators were described by the BBC as coming from “the Wisbech area”.
Forgive my ignorance of geography, but I thought that Wisbech was actually just down the road from Cambridge, which is a bit off target for Lithuania.