Open thread – for comments of general Biased BBC interest:


Please use this thread for off-topic, but preferably BBC related, comments. Please keep comments on other threads to the topic at hand. N.B. this is not an invitation for general off-topic comments – our aim is to maintain order and clarity on the topic-specific threads. This post will remain at or near the top of the blog. Please scroll down to find new topic-specific posts.

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935 Responses to Open thread – for comments of general Biased BBC interest:

  1. Ralph says:

    ‘Note the “sneering” attitude so typical of Frei’s output’

    I saw him on a show about the Beltway Sniper it was a wonderful mix of the self serving, the sneer, and the ‘if only they’d asked me’.

    He does seem to think that making snide (and often inaccurate) comments about anyone right of Howard Dean equals reporting.

    I suppose that comes from having a job for life in a broadcaster paid by taxes.

       0 likes

  2. Bryan says:

    Good post, Oscar.

    Let’s hope that Johnston is being held by criminals intent on ransom rather than terrorists intent on making the point that infidels, whether sympathetic to the Palestinian cause or not, are still infidels.

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  3. Rueful Red says:

    Did anyone hear a piece on the Today programme this morning saying that the security situation is improving in al-Anbar and that th elocal chiefs have turned against al-Qaeda and in favour of the Iraqi government? Or was it just my lyin’ ears?

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  4. Alan says:

    Does anyone know if this will fly?

    As I understand it, one needs a BBC licence these days if one has a broadband internet connection (even if you have no TVs).

    Nobody can seriously dispute that broadband internet is a necessary tool for running a business.

    So the TV license should be a tax detuctable business expense for the self employed.

    “Don’t get mad get even”, as my mum used to say.

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  5. Anonanon says:

    On Drive yesterday evening Peter Allen discussed the incident of the children used in a car bomb with the BBC’s reporter in Iraq Hugh Sykes. Here are Sykes’ reflections – “I think there’s a huge warning sign on this story because this is the fog of war. It could be disinformation. For example – I have no evidence for suggesting this is what happened – but it’s quite possible that if there was some awful mistake at a checkpoint a cover story might be made up to cover for some terrible mistake or some appalling act of incompetence. I don’t know what happened. We’ve only heard it from America.”

    Interesting mindset from the BBC reporter – his first thoughts, without evidence (as he admits), are that the Americans probably killed the children.

    (Listen Again: Drive, Tuesday 20th March – approx 1hour 46 mins in)

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  6. BaggieJonathan says:

    Sorry guys but I have to disagree.

    Yahia Simpson is at best (that probably should read worst) number two, Abu Bowen still has top spot hand down!

       0 likes

  7. BaggieJonathan says:

    Or even hands (I assure you no pun on Sharia Law was intended)

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  8. Rachel Miller says:

    Query to all:

    A few weeks ago, the BBC posted a report on a debate held in London between Ken Livingstone and Daniel Pipes on Islam and the West. Unfortunately, as I found out here, they only published it in Arabic…

    I have contacted BBC World Service three times now, asking them a) why the report is not posted in English and b) if they can provide me with a translation. I have had no response whatsoever.

    Has anyone else tried contacting the BBC on this issue, and if so, did you get any answers?

    Thanks!

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  9. Allan@Aberdeen says:

    Bryan:
    Allan@Aberdeen | 21.03.07 – 12:24 am,

    No, Johnston’s abduction doesn’t have an Israeli stamp on it. The Israelis target terrorists, not terror-friendly journalists, and when they go after terrorists it is to arrest or kill them, not to abduct them.

    I wrote this wildly speculative post to highlight just how far the BBC has gone from being a news reporter (with some bias) to being a propaganda tool for murderous, terrorist groupings. As such, the BBC SHOULD BE a target of Israeli counter-measures. Israel has the right of self-defence, and I don’t consider the BBC to be British so I must say that I’m rather indifferent to Johnston’s fate. He’s as dangerous to Israel as the ‘British’ suicide bombers who attacked Tel Aviv.

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  10. Archonix says:

    As I understand it, one needs a BBC licence these days if one has a broadband internet connection (even if you have no TVs).

    Fortunately for those of us who use computers on a regular basis that’s not true (not for lack of trying on the part of the BBC, of course), though if it were your plan would be fun to put in to effect.

    If you have a computer with a TV card built in to it then you need a license, but considering you can get USB digital decoders that can hide in your pocket, and which don’t produce any of the teltales that the licese enforcers claim to be able to detect from a regular television, well, lets just say it’s hard to enforce a licensing regime in such situations, which is why they want to get a blanket license on computers whether they have a TV decoder or not.

       0 likes

  11. Anonymous says:

    GCooper:
    I realise that abuse doesn’t contribute a great deal to the debate, but I just want to say that I consider John Simpson to be an odious, louche toad, whose de haut en bas manner with its world-weary, sub-Graham Greene routines and Guardianesque liberal conceits to be the absolute worst the BBC has to offer.
    Are you referring to the man who singlehandedly liberated Kabul?
    Your comment has to be one of the better put-downs I have read in a long while… Thanks

    JohnBosworth
    He said, “We’re Disney. We’re American. We’re eveything the BBC hates. Every BBC producer or presenter we’ve ever had doing stories about us ends up trashing Disney on air – but first they ask us for free tickets for their families to one of the theme parks”.

    That encapsulates the BBC perfectly.
    One of their apologists, the lycra lout, started running off at the mouth the other day about ‘How many people from the BBc have you met’. Well I’ve met quite a few from the head of news gathering to the 70s Blue Peter bunch (tossers all). From reporters to technicians. The only decent ones were the people at Caversham Park and the research engineers from Lower Kingswood. the rest.. venal springs to mind.

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  12. The Fat Contractor says:

    It would be highly irresponsible of the BBC to wind up the Palestinians by having a pop at their penchant for kidnapping, considering the Pallys have a Beeboid chained to a radiator somewhere. So, no, I’m not suprised that they are currently pussy-footing around the subject.

    Neither am I suprised that the BBC are pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli. Firstly the BBC has a penchant for anti-semitism and secondly they hate the USA, Israels main backer. Oh and thirdly they are a bunch of lefties and the USSR used to support the Arabs in their hatred of the Jews.

    I hope Mr Johnson is released soon and has an epiphany. I doubt he will though.

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  13. The Fat Contractor says:

    Anonymous | 21.03.07 – 12:45 pm |
    70s Blue Peter bunch (tossers all).

    What? Even Shep? Take that back sir!

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  14. Martin Belam says:

    >> The only decent ones were the people at Caversham Park and the research engineers from Lower Kingswood.

    The librarians at Windmill Road are quite mild-mannered and inoffensive, you might have liked those too.

       0 likes

  15. Martin Belam says:

    I think IngSoc addressed a question to me earlier about (D)HYS?

    The clearest public explanation I’ve ever seen from the BBC of how the moderation works, and why getting published is a needle-in-haystack type of affair is tucked away here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/opensecrets/2006/10/the_impact_on_bbc_journalism.html#c221426

    That doesn’t of course preclude that you’ve made it onto some secret list of persona non grata, but the statistics seem to favour *not* being published rather than *being* published

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  16. Martin Belam says:

    GCooper:
    I realise that abuse doesn’t contribute a great deal to the debate,

    No, but well-written abuse can sometimes at least raise a laugh and a smile for everyone 🙂

       0 likes

  17. D Burbage says:

    Did the BBC cover the enormous protest by junior doctors? I looked on the news pages and didn’t find anything. One of my favourite blogs covers it in full

    http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2007/03/treating-doctors-like-human-beings.html

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  18. Abandon ship! says:

    Apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but here is the latest in a now quite hefty pile of articles in the quality press questioning BBC’s “balanced” output:

    Michael Gove

    The West is not the real danger

    I can hardly believe that the BBC invited the Syrian Ambassador on to Newsnight on Monday as a detached observer to discuss Iraq’s prospects. But then, when was the last time that the BBC gave viewers a chance to learn more about Baathist Syria’s subversion of democracy in Iraq, or Lebanon, through its strategic alliance with Iran and support for terrorist groups? I could also hardly believe that the BBC broadcast a special report that morning maintaining that the biggest threat to Israel was internal corruption. It’s a big issue, certainly, but how big a problem is corruption in Israel compared with, say, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia or Iran? And when was the last time you had the opportunity to hear about the problems with their internal political cultures on the BBC?

    Talking of threats, I was astounded that on the Ten O’Clock News on Monday Jeremy Bowen ended a package on Iraq’s security situation by explaining that the Iraq War was the engine of extremism in Saudi Arabia, and that the next big problem in the region was US intentions towards Iran. Again, when was the last time that the BBC properly explained how the Saudis have been funding extremism for decades, or pointed out that the real danger is not the West taking action to restrain Iran but Iran’s Holocaust-denying, terrorism-sponsoring President getting his hands on nuclear missiles?

    Question time

    One final question: the Democrat Senator Joe Lieberman recently argued that “there is something profoundly wrong when opposition to the war in Iraq seems to inspire greater passion than opposition to Islamist extremism”. When will he be invited on to the Today programme to develop that point?

    The author is Conservative MP for Surrey Heath.

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  19. Abandon ship! says:

    Hugh Sykes

    “Balance” to him is apportioning equal blame to the Americans and the British when a Sunni suicide bomber walks into a Baghdad market place and blows fifty or so Iraqis into eternity.

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  20. Anonanon says:

    Debka’s latest take on the Johnston kidnapping:

    Our counter-terror sources disclose that Montaz Durmush, leader of the Army of Islam (Al Qaeda-Palestine), which is holding both hostages, is using the British journalist as a tool to drive up the price demanded of Israel for [Gilead] Shalit’s freedom.

    Neither has been seen since their abduction. Durmush is posting threatening notices to the UK government about Johnston’s fate through a third party, to make the British lean on Israel to extort an exorbitant price for the two men’s release.

    A team of 20 British agents, most of them from the MI6 secret service, is working in Gaza to make contact with the abductors, or just to obtain a sign of life from Johnston • so far without success. It is beginning to dawn on the group that the BBC reporter’s seizure was not just another short-lived kidnapping of a Westerner like the ones plaguing Gaza and the West Bank in recent months, but a drawn-out affair with no knowing how it will turn out.

    http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3958

       0 likes

  21. D Burbage says:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6475053.stm

    has a particularly unflattering picture of Cameron. I wonder why?

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  22. john says:

    That BBC bias again! Notice how Stephen Stewart with his description of Scottish gangs with names such as the Toryglen Nazi Circus, the Young Toryglen Toi and the Bowery Wee Mob invites readers to
    associate these gangs with, not a political party, but a “group”.

    Imagine, if he had written the same and said “Groups, such as the SNP” or, “Groups, such as the Labour Party”, then you have a clear illustration of Stewart’s BBC bias. All in all a nasty smear article by the BBC.

    Asylum seekers targeted by gangs

    Stephen Stewart
    BBC Scotland news website

    Groups, such as the BNP, have already used recent flashpoints such as the Kriss Donald murder trial to fuel racial hatred.

    The case, one of Scotland’s most high profile racially motivated murders, became a cause celebre(sic) for gang members who use message boards to discuss attacks on asylum seekers and refugees.
    Several gang web pages, complete with pictures of gang members in various states of intoxication, are linked to another series of websites billing themselves as a forum for “national socialists worldwide”.

    Note too Stewarts lazy use of the phrase “cause célèbre” so hideously white don’t you know! Imagine if a BBC reporter had said this about Stephen Lawrence and some equivalent Black gang?

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  23. Avi says:

    I sent the following as correctional feedback to the BBC website. When they can get it wrong and paint Israel in a less favorable light, they will do so.

    As per usual, there are a number of factual mistakes in your report which show Israel is a negative light.
    1 “In the past,…. and phone and electricity services stopped.”
    This has not happened within living memory, neither the Bezek phone company which is now fully privatized or the Israel Electric Company have gone on national strike.
    2 The flights scheduled to bring in the English fans were and are allowed to land.

    The main point which is of course totally ignored in your piece as it runs counter to the BBC’s anti Israel line is that the strike was called in solidarity with the employees of the local council workers who have not been paid by their council emloyers. The overwhelming number of them are from Muslim Arab councils and local authorities. The Zionist Labour Federation struck nationally in support of mainly Arab Muslim workers. As this does not fit the simplistic picture you try and present of Israel, it is ignored.
    Perhaps you should all go out and get a paying job rather than living off the UK tax payers?

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  24. TPO says:

    Sorry Anonymous | 21.03.07 – 12:45 pm was me.The Fat Contractor:
    Anonymous | 21.03.07 – 12:45 pm |
    70s Blue Peter bunch (tossers all).
    What? Even Shep? Take that back sir!
    The Fat Contractor | 21.03.07 – 1:12 pm | #

    Martin Belam:
    >> The only decent ones were the people at Caversham Park and the research engineers from Lower Kingswood.
    The librarians at Windmill Road are quite mild-mannered and inoffensive, you might have liked those too.
    Martin Belam | Homepage | 21.03.07 – 1:26 pm | #

    I met the 70s Blue Peter bunch in Brunei unfortunately they didn’t bring Shep with them. We went out of our way to lay on things for them and to accommodate them but Leslie Judd and her pals was about as obnoxious as they come. They even refused to sign autographs for some of the ex-pat kids. After that we told them to poke it.
    A few months later ‘The Money Programme’ team pitched up. By then everyone had had enough of the BBC. The only person who could be arsed to help them was the local BBC chappie who eventually finished up as head of news gathering. He once told me that as he controlled what people watched I would never win. I’ll expand on that if anyone is interested.
    I’ve never met the librarians at Windmill Road.

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  25. TPO says:

    Anonanon

    A team of 20 British agents, most of them from the MI6 secret service, is working in Gaza

    I’m sorry but that is a tad fanciful. Drop the zero and you might be closer to the mark.

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  26. Biodegradable says:

    … the local BBC chappie who eventually finished up as head of news gathering. He once told me that as he controlled what people watched I would never win. I’ll expand on that if anyone is interested.
    TPO | 21.03.07 – 3:41 pm

    Yes please, I’m interested.

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  27. Biodegradable says:

    Submitted via the BBC web site complaints page:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/make_complaint_step1n.shtml

    It is my undestanding that the BBC Charter obliges the BBC to respond to complaints within ten days.

    I first sent the following complaint on the 9th March 2007 and have yet to receive so much as an acknowledgment, so here it is again:

    RE: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6433801.stm

    The report at the above URL states the following:

    “Israel captured the arid Sinai peninsula from Egypt in the Six Day war of 1967, with Egypt counterattacking in the 1973 war. The two sides signed a peace treaty in 1979 and Sinai was returned to Egypt.”

    I feel that the use of the word ‘counterattack’ misleads the reader into thinking that the Six Day War was started by Israel in order to ‘capture’ land, and that Egypt merely responded to this in 1973.

    While it is true that Israel made a pre-emptive strike on the Egyptian air force, it was clear that an attack by several Arab states was inevitable, as the relevant BBC’s own “On This Day” entry makes plain:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm

    ‘The attack follows a build-up of Arab military forces along the Israeli border.

    The Arab states had been preparing to go to war against Israel with Egypt, Jordan and Syria being aided by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria.

    On 27 May the President of Egypt, Abdel Nasser, declared: “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight.”

    Egypt signed a pact with Jordan at the end of May declaring an attack on one was an attack on both. This was seen by Israel as a clear sign of preparation for all-out war.’

    A “counterattack” is generally understood to be an immediate response to an attack. After the 1967 war there were several years of relative peace before, once again, in 1973, Egypt and other Arab states decided to once again try to destroy Israel.

    After six years of relative peace the Yom Kippur war can hardly be called an Egyptian “counterattack”. Again, as the BBC’s own “On This day” reports:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/6/newsid_2514000/2514317.stm

    Thank you for your attention, I look forward to your response and an appropriate correction.

       0 likes

  28. disillusioned_german says:

    This piece http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6473873.stm is a great example of the “progressive” asylum / immigration policy. Don’t stop them from getting in, once they’re here give them the time to settle because after that you can’t kick them out again.

    The US has a similar (even worse) problem because of their automatic citizenship for individuals born in the country. And never mind that people who broke the law get rewarded.

    Multiculturalism doesn’t work but let’s allow anyone in anyway. The only question is: “Where can the natives go once they had enough of unlimited immigration?”

       0 likes

  29. Anonymous says:

    http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=WT2135311O&news_headline=croat_war_criminal_allowed_to_stay_in_britain

    A convicted war criminal has won his legal battle to stay in Britain.

       0 likes

  30. Little Bulldogs says:

    Alan Johnston’s kidnapping has revealed that his reporting from Gaza was biased in favour of the Palestinians.

    This post gives some of the statements that attests to this:

    http://littlebulldogs.blogspot.com/2007/03/bbcs-johnston-friend-to-palestinians.html

       0 likes

  31. GCcooper says:

    TPO writes:

    “I’ll expand on that if anyone is interested. ”

    I’m with Biodegradable on this. I’d be fascinated.

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  32. Oscar says:

    Johnston’s deep friendship for the Palestinian people extended to apologetics and jokes about their hostage habit:

    “And the whole business of kidnapping goes very much against the local social grain. Palestinians are extremely hospitable people, and one of the dangers of being abducted here must be that you could get fed to death.”
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6459521.stm
    Hmmm – wonder if he’s eating his words?

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  33. GCcooper says:

    Radio Sport (5 Live) was on good form this afternoon, with the station’s resident juvenile Leftie (Simon Mayo) interviewing Dr Henrik Svensmark and Nigel Calder about their new book The Chilling Stars, which presents Dr Svensmark’s evidence that GW is not manmade.

    Mayo made a complete fool of himself by attacking Svensmark on the specious grounds that he could not be right if all ‘the overwhelming majority of scientists’ said he was wrong – particularly if one of those was Martin Rees. Clearly, Mayo has never heard of Clarke’s First Law.

    Svensmark patiently explained to him that science does not proceed by consensus, while Calder sliced him to ribbons on the true nature of that ‘consensus’.

    Were Mayo the truly impartial figure he should to be to be driving this bus, he would not have dripped incredulity and scorn (not that he’s very good a scorn – he’s a bit of a wimp) and would gone away to consider what the good doctor has suggested.

    Instead, Mayo made it plain that he had not listened, did not wish to listen and – like the rest of his scientifically uneducated comrades at the BBC – has chosen to believe a political belief dressed up as a scientific opinion.

    In keeping with 5 Live style, let’s give the score, as measured on a scale of adult debate. Science Academicals 0 – BBC Ecofascist Wanderers 1

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  34. Alan says:

    No doubt, Al Beeb will be reporting the verdict (due 22 March),
    in the ‘Charlie Hebdo’ French cartoon case.

    For extract from excellent article by editor Philippe Val, see:

    “With a Government Like This, Who Needs Enemies?” (21 Mar.)
    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2001
    For the FULL article, go to Wall Street Journal, referenced at extract.

    In the meantime, the Islamic threat to free speech continues at Cambridge University, see:

    “The war within the west (11)”
    http://www.melaniephillips.com

       0 likes

  35. Evan says:

    The BBC connive at Brown’s “tax cut” ruse. Many of the poorest workers have just seen their tax bill double and the BBC headline a cut. Shame on Labour and their BBC prostitutes.

       0 likes

  36. archduke says:

    bbc are doing a hidden camera docu on corruption and mis-selling at Barclays.
    banks are evil, ya know.

    i eagerly await their hidden camera docu on the Home Office and/or the Passport Office.

    oh wait. maybe not.

       0 likes

  37. archduke says:

    “Evan | 21.03.07 – 9:43 pm ”

    yeah. the wife here is worse off by a few hundred quid. part time worker and not in the higher tax brackets.

    but my income tax gain is more than offset by the rise in council tax. just got the bill today. 5 per cent rise.

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  38. Jon says:

    “The EU at 50: Your reflections”

    http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/6468297.stm

    4 “reflections” on the EU – very balanced. 1 person from the UK “Isn’t the EU great” – 1 person from Germany “Isn’t the EU great” – 1 person from Poland “Isnt the EU great” – but to be balanced we get one person from Kosovo – “Life is horrible here , I wish we were in the EU”

    Utter blatent soviet-style propoganda of the worst order.

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  39. Ralph says:

    Evan: ‘The BBC connive at Brown’s “tax cut” ruse’

    Watch C4 News and Sky and you’ll see it is spread all over our ‘media elite’.

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  40. archduke says:

    ” Jon | 21.03.07 – 10:50 pm ”

    thats worthy of Pravda.

    no seriously. i’m not joking.

    i think i’ll post that link on the EU REF blog.

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  41. Jon says:

    archduke: Just think how easy it would have been to be balanced with just 4 people. By my reckoning that would be 2 for and 2 against, looks simple doesn’t it. Its not as if the BBC have to use two hands to count them.

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  42. archduke says:

    ” Ralph | Homepage | 21.03.07 – 10:54 pm”

    devil is in the details. lets see how they report it tommorow ,when the full budget report is analysed.

    already the evening standard later headlines were referring to a “tax trick”.

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  43. Biodegradable says:

    Abu Bowen up to his old tricks again. Even though he’s writing about Iraq he just can’t resist the opportunity to lie about Israel.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6476907.stm
    The war has already produced the biggest movement of people in the Middle East since the Palestinian refugee crisis after the establishment of Israel in 1948.

    What about the nearly one million Jewish refugees forced out of Arab countries after the establishment of Israel in 1948?

    http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18072

       0 likes

  44. archduke says:

    amazing. CBS news in the states is reporting that an American pilot (because he was flying a British Lynx) has won the British Distinguished Service Cross – and was awarded it from the Queen herself.

    first time this has happened in 50 years apparently.

       0 likes

  45. archduke says:

    ” Biodegradable | 22.03.07 – 1:44 am”

    but jews dont matter to the likes of Bowen. they are untermenschen. did you catch his interview with the brother of the Saudi king, where during the entire report, Saudi financing of Iraqi terrorism was never mentioned?

    wouldnt be surprised if it turns out that he prays 5 times a day. seriously.

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  46. Anonymous says:

    “What about the nearly one million Jewish refugees forced out of Arab countries after the establishment of Israel in 1948?”

    Not to mention when his Buddy Saddam pushed the Kurds out and Marsh Arabs….Jesus wept, he really is a dumb shit….as are the people who believe the Beebs propaganda.

       0 likes

  47. Biodegradable says:

    Not to mention when his Buddy Saddam pushed the Kurds out and Marsh Arabs…

    Recently the Iraqis expelled several thousand “Palestinians” to Jordan. Several were also killed in the last few weeks when they fired at Iraqi police from within their ‘refugee compound’.

    An intersting opinion piece here about the ‘Right of Return’:
    UN Resolution 194 does not grant refugees explicit right to come back

    Meanwhile the BBC is silent about this:
    Gaza: Fatah member killed in clashes with Hamas

    Can we say ‘fragile cease-fire’?

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  48. archduke says:

    and dont forget the Yemenis who were expelled from Saudi Arabia during Gulf War One

    800,000 expelled

    http://www.oxan.com/display.aspx?g=gp&ItemID=DB12743

    “Yemen took a pro-Iraq stance. Tension was exacerbated by the expulsion of some 800,000 Yemeni workers from Saudi Arabia in 1990. “

       0 likes

  49. Richard says:

    http://www.pickinglosers.co.uk/blog_entry/bgprior/20070321/the_budget_the_bbc_and_the_bias

    If this is true then it deserves a formal complaint to be made. Unfortunately it is still the governors that decide on the complaint, and they are sure to side with the BBC, but that should never stop us from complaining.

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  50. Richard says:

    Bio

    It is even worse. The Palestinians were never true refugees, as that implies that they were forced to leave their homes.

    In fact they left so as to allow the surrounding Arab states to attack Israel without having to worry so much about killing Muslims. They hoped then to take over the land vacated by the murder of Jews. They became voluntarily stateless, then their gamble didn’t pay off because Israel won the war.

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