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Just in from Austria. In the election for the state of Styria the populist Freedom Party (FPO) has just come… - Zephir Nov 24, 23:48
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I was watching a Thin Blue Line a couple of nights ago, written by Ben Elton and starring Rowan Atkinson… - JohnC Nov 24, 23:46
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Gonna be 2 million by the morning, squeaky bum time at the BBC
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Robbiekeane, thanks for making this American feel so welcomed. It was was meant to be absurd to illustrate the absurdity of the EU controlling every facet of European life. I’m outta here.
If you don’t feel welcome it’s because of what you say, your comments on the other thread about Jews kicking “Palestinians” off their land for example – I for one was unaware that you were American.
G’bye, have a nice day 🙂
Oops, ignore that last comment – the comments about Israel were Robbiekeane’s, who’s nationality is unknown, and equally unimportant.
Robbiekeane must have attended “diversity training” as it seems to have worked.
I think the old Soviet Union had more freedoms than the current EU.
Just an American | 25.04.07 – 1:11 pm |
Spot on. (I suppose in your parlance, ‘Way to go’)
I’d rather you stayed and ignored the jejeune intellect of Robbiekeane.
What you may not be aware of is that Robbie Keane is the name of a footballer (soccer to you), a group of people renouned for their vacuous stupidy.
TPO, Thanks for the kind words. When I said “outta here” I meant that I was not going to converse with some one whose first comment to me is to tell me how stupid I am. Actually, by lurking here, and through Jon, I am getting quite a (and very appreciated), lesson in how things are in Europe. Since England is the place that I am most interested in, coming here to the source is very important to me.
P.S. We have a group of people over here who are also known for their vacuous stupidity, we call them Democrats. 😉
Just an American: Nice to hear you are sticking around and not scared away the likes of robbiekeane. I have noticed he pops up now and then with some one liners.
I suppose this blog is apt, as I have always wondered how the BBC potrays Britain to a US audience – no doubt they put the word across of how we all like being part of the EUSSR and how wonderful New Labour are.
No doubt there are some who think that I am exagerating how things are in Britain, but to people who have seen how Britain was before we “joined” the EU, I must say there was more freedom before.
Here is a link which you may find interesting.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2005/09/who-governs-britain.html
Thanks, Jon. I do read EU Referendum occasionally, and some of the items published there are very interesting, while admitting that I don’t understand some of the things I read. The EU is really not very well understood over here. I think I may have mentioned that most Americans view the EU as an economic union, something like NAFTA, and not a central governing body controlling all of Europe. I think the reason there is so little coverage of the EU in the States is because most of our reporting brain trust have no idea how to broach the subject. Please don’t be offended by that, most American journalists don’t know much about their own government much less some other country’s.
For instance, what is Britain’s status in the organization? Are you considered full members? What constitutes full membership? Is France a full member? If so, what is the point of French elections if Brussels is able to dictate policy?
Where does Brussels authority end and member countries govenments takeover?
Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, but over here we seems to get so much conflicting and contradictory information.
Just an American: This link will give you details of the electoral system in the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_United_Kingdom
But check out the figures.
Note how only 22% of the electorate actually voted for New Labour and they got a majority of seats.
In England, the Conservative party polled 60,000 more votes than Labour yet received 90 fewer seats.
On the EU – yes we are full membership which means we can have less say in our own country than before we joined.
The EU was originally called the Common Market which was like NAFTA – and this is what the British actually voted for in 1973 – but since then it has become a socio-economic monster that is allowed to pass laws on how many hours you work, what shape a bannana should be, and what weights and measures you can use (and don’t whatever you do sell someone a pound of bannas or you will be severly fined and could face prison, http://www.metricmartyrs.co.uk/)
On the EU and representation I suggest you read this:
http://www.brugesgroup.com/eurorebuttal/index.live?article=242
Granted it is written by “Eurosceptics” but I believe it is a true reflection.
Forgot to mention – Full Membership of the EU entitles you to pay billions of pounds to other countries who actually despise you and get nothing in return. We no longer have a fishing industry – as our waters were given away to Brussels, we have thousands of directives (telling us how to live) hoisted upon us every year from Brussels, all our agricultural industry is controlled by Brussels and:
“How many people know that it is Brussels which dictates which seed varieties we are allowed to plant in our gardens; which prescribes, down to the minutest detail, how we can make buses and cars; which lays down the height of our office chairs, the design of our fire exit notices, the exact permissible measurements of destination displays in our trains?”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=444280&in_page_id=1770
Oh dear, this is very depressing. The Daily Mail article reflected my general negative impressions of the EU. I had hope that more in depth knowledge of the EU would disprove the negative, it does not. I have often wondered how could anyone vote for such a thing, only to find “no one” has voted for it. It is hard to understand how this monster keeps moving forward in light of public opinion being so opposed. Why has no major party in the UK grabbed this as an issue? Handled correctly, it sounds like it could be a winner.
A few years ago I had an on-line conversation with a few Germans who were very pro EU. I wished them well, and hoped that the EU would be very successful. The change in tone became very alarming, as one told me to “be careful what you wish for, American.” I asked, why, as I think competition is good for all involved and that the consumer could only benefit? I was talking economics, they weren’t. They were looking forward to the day when the EU became a military power, and I was told that when that happens the EU will give the US a “tough lesson in good behavior.” A threat?
Whoa, I thought we would move forward as partners. The US needs a strong and vibrant Europe, as I had hoped that Europe would see us as essential to your well being too. We need Europe and the UK to resume their rightful leadership role in the world. Obviously, these particular Germans didn’t think so. I wonder how many other Europeans think this way? If hostile rivalry is the basis or even part of the basis for the EU’s mission, it is destined to fail. Where would the rivalry end? With us, with Russia, with China? Scary.
Over regulation, layers upon layers of bureaucracy, unelected commissioners, disenfranchised citizens on and on, is their anything positive about this thing? There won’t be international wars in Europe again, the next conflict will be a “civil war” within the EU. This is very depressing and I am very sorry.
Just an American – I can put your mind at rest the EU will never become a super power. The Germans and the Fench pretty much run the EU – they are the ones who mostly make the “rules” and they are the ones who break them with impunity. Britain – which has always been a country who abide by the rule of law – stick to the “directives” very closly but other countries just take no notice of them if it is aginst their national interest. Germany and France are the two countries over the last 2 hundred years who wanted to dominate Europe – they tried war and everytime were defeated by the British and her allies. Now they have suceeded without a shot being fired.
Here is another example of Britain playing by the rules – even when the rule may threaten the lives of innocent Britons.
“The government says it is “very disappointed” by a decision to block the deportation of two Libyan terror suspects and will appeal against it.
The men, known only as DD and AS, argued they could be jailed and tortured if sent home despite a deal between the two countries.
The Special Immigration Appeals Commission ruled in their favour.
Under international laws, the UK does not deport people to regimes where they may face persecution.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6601667.stm
Apparently they can deprive us of our Human Rights but terrorist suspects rights are sacrosanct.
Jon, it seems that it is a lot worse than I thought. No, I don’t think that the EU will ever become a super power but it can become a superstate filled with very unhappy citizens. The very thing about Germany and France not abiding by the rules is going to breed resentment as it already has among those who are paying attention. This does not bode well for the future of the EU. England deserves a lot better than this.
Just an American – I am an optimist, and I’m sure good sense will prevail.
JAA – many apologies.
I didn’t mean to be offensive but it boggles the mind that anyone could genuinely believe that living within the EU is somehow less free that living within a system where one couldn’t leave, was compulsarily employed by the state, had no rights to vote, protest, change jobs… And that’s ignoring the more horrific repression suffered by Soviet citizens.
FYI, living and working in London I don’t feel remotely restricted by the sinister hand of Brussels. In fact I probably benefit but admittedly in a multinational finance job which derives many benefits from free-er European trade and travel facilitated by the EU but doesn’t get hit by so much by the beaurocracy and red tape affecting manufacturing and small firms.
The EU is far from democratically perfect, however the key institution is increasingly the Council of Ministers (i.e. politicians elected by their national electorates). Policy is sometimes initiated by the Council of Ministers (i.e. appointed by the democratically elected governments). Not perfect but closer to say the US Supreme Court than a totalitarian dictatorship. In contrast to Jon’s gloomy prognosis most reasonable commentators (try the Economist or FT say) would concur that Britain’s positive influence is increasing at the expense of the traditional France/Germany axis.
It has been pretty crap, it’s far too prone to meddling, the Human Rights Act is at least badly drafted and at worst dangerous (problem in Britain is that legal statute tends to get interpreted more literally than in Europe where the original purpose of law is more widely considered), the big countries ignore the rules, loads of cash gets wasted (although I’d suggest the net outflow that has turned Spain and Ireland for example from basket cases into hugely valuable trading partners was hardly pissed up the wall…)
But a Stalinist evil monstrosity that will destroy us all? Bollocks.
But a Stalinist evil monstrosity that will destroy us all? Bollocks
Not yet!!!
Hey why bother engaging brain when we’re all doooooooooomed!!!!!!!! 🙂
Robbiekeane,
We use a metaphor here in the States that, in my humble opinion, applies to the EU. It is called “boiling the frog.” If you were to take a frog and throw him into a pot of boiling water the frog’s instinct to survive causes it to jump out of the water for even the frog recognizes the danger of boiling water.
Take the same frog and place him in a pot of cold water and slowly heat the water to a boil. The frog dies because the danger is so gradual as not to be noticed until it is too late. Europe is that frog in cold water right now.
When you have a bureaucratic non-elected entity deciding on the “size of a banana” you are in big trouble. When you have layers and layers of nonsense destroying what was once thriving industries, i.e. fishing and farming, you are in trouble. When you have some countries who follow the rules and some who ignore them, you are in trouble. When you have a means to collect exorbitant taxes from one people and distribute it to another you are in trouble.
The water is starting to boil, and you Robbiekeane, are not even aware that you are in a pot. 🙁
Did I say “metaphor?” Sorry, I meant allegory. Have mercy it is before “coffee” over here. 😆
hmmmm I guess we’ll see in 30 years if we’re all being subjugated under an EU Communist jackboot.
My guess is not. btw the EU is hardly destroying European farming. In perhaps its most idiotic action it’s propping it up when it would otherwise have long since succumbed to developing world price competition and we could have diverted resources elsewhere.
Ireland is in the EU and has far lower tax than (for example) the US? What’s your point?
Anyway, off in my poverty stricken, socialism ridden, undemocratic, downtrodden state for a few glasses of champers in the sun at lunchtime. Ciao!
does metaphor not work as well? i can never remember!
Metaphor, allegory? I never could keep them straight, and my freshman English prof is probably grabbing his head and thinking, “will she ever remember which is which?” No!
A long time ago my country fought a war against “taxation without representation.” It troubled us that a government located so far from our shores was determining what was best for us. To this day, I can still rattle my Congress Critter’s cage with the statement that “I have no representation” in my government. Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY), wanted to meet with me personally when I wrote to him with that claim several years ago. We are very sensitive to this.
The biggest problem that I have with EU is just that, there is an awful lot of taxation and regulation going on without very much representation. The representation that exists is unaccountable to the people who they serve, this is never a good thing.
Do you think that some faceless bureaucrat sitting in Brusssels will have the same loyalty and patriotic fervor for England as an English government would? It is my opinion that every individual government has a duty and obligation to work for their people at the expense of all others if need be, because that is who they are accountable to and serve.
We send our Senators and Representatives to Washington expecting them to come home with the “bacon.” When we pay two dollars in tax revenue to the Federal Government and only get one dollar back we are not happy. We are doubly angry when we see New Jersey sending one and getting back two. Some one in my state is not doing his job and looking out for New York. It breeds resentment.
Maybe that is the difference, we see our politicians as servants (regardless of the exaulted opinion they have of themselves), and they serve us. When they stop doing that we get rid of them. Can you?
“hmmmm I guess we’ll see in 30 years if we’re all being subjugated under an EU Communist jackboot.”
Ah robbiekeane is doing well out of the anti-democratic EU so sod everyone else – typical.
In 30 years time there will be no EU it will break up long before that.
Just an American has hit the nail on the head – no taxation without representation. You maybe an EU fop – but when I voted against the “Common Market” in 1973 I was voting against a trading union – I reckon at that time had the population known that the EU was going to take away our freedoms then we would never be in the thing now. We were lied to, simple as that. And guess what if we had a referendum tommorow to leave the EU – you would be on the losing side.
And you think that its OK for people in Brussels to make laws which affect us all without any acountability?
You think its OK for our legal system is undermined by endless EU directives – without a chance of voting aginst them?
As for
“Ireland is in the EU and has far lower tax than (for example) the US? What’s your point?”
Utter rubbish.
“Combining both the tax levels and tax shares ,the United States raises more personal income tax and property tax as a share of GDP than other
OECD countries do, but less corporate income tax, Social
Security contributions, and taxes on goods and services, resulting in a lower tax burden overall.”
Click to access 1000976_Tax_Fact_05-08-06.pdf
You have to look at overall tax levels – Ireland , like the UK pays 17p in every pound (or whatever that is in euros) spent in VAT to the EU, and before you spend this you are taxed on your income. Then there is National Insurence.
“Anyway, off in my poverty stricken, socialism ridden, undemocratic, downtrodden state for a few glasses of champers in the sun at lunchtime. Ciao!”
Now I get it your on the champaigne socialist bandwagon – well make the most of it because the days of middle class elite socilism is on the wane.
The sod you I’m alright times are ending. I suggest if you can’t get your facts right don’t try and ridicule people, it is in very bad taste and just shows how insecure you are about your “facts”.
Just an American
You are quite right – politicians are servents of the people not the other way around – they have also forgotten this in England.
“Under socialism, control of property is put into the hands of society as a whole. The first effect of this is that people cannot be independent. They cannot live on their own efforts, because there goods will be stolen. This means that to live, they must act in accordance with the wishes of society. They are enslaved.
The destruction of property rights has an additional effect, though. It destroys the efficacy of one’s mind. Without the freedom to act in accordance with one’s rational judgments, their minds are invalidated. There is no point to thinking if one cannot act on those thoughts. Since one thinks in order to promote one’s life, socialism necessarily leads to an inability to promote one’s life. You are required to act against your best judgment and against your best interest.
Socialism is an evil political system. All political systems, though, rest on an ethical system. Socialism is not an exception. It rests on the moral system of collectivism. It is when collectivism is accepted as valid that socialism is possible. It is through collectivism that the crimes of socialism are ignored.”.
http://www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Bloody_Socialism.html
This why the weak willed embrace socialism as it means they can live off the interlect of others and not try to think for themselves. The EU is socialist through and through, in fact it is akin to communism.
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/nov/06110703.html
“England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution . . . the negative, fainéant outlook which has been fashionable among English left-wingers, the sniggering of the intellectuals at patriotism and physical courage, the persistent effort to chip away English morale and spread a hedonistic, what-do-I-get-out-of-it attitude to life, has done nothing but harm . . . ”
George Orwell.
The EU and New Labour have succeeded in abolishing and tampering with English Institutions. Get rid of the bedrock that a civilization stands on and the civilization dies.
“England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality.”
I hate to contradict you, Jon, but England is only one of the two great countries who are ashamed of their own nationality. American academic elites and leftist elites hate and despise the US too. They view patriotism as an exercise for the feeble minded, and are only too willing to apologize to everyone for everything including and especially our comfortable and prosperous lifestyle. 😆
Perhaps this is a throwback to thier English roots. Orwell was writing during the war, which made it worse.
Orwell was a socialist but he was also a patriot. Did you know that “The Ministry of Truth” that he writes about in 1984 was based on the BBC?
Jon, it would have to be something instinctive. I once asked a very leftist professor, “Why can’t you just teach, why do you feel the need to brainwash?” After he was done huffing and puffing indignantly, he confided that he knew he was right, and there was no room for disagreement.” I was blown away by such hubris and conceit, but on the positive side he did expose himself for the fool he is.
Being a patriot and a socialist rarely ever go together, but if anyone could do it, it would be Orwell. Also, “The Ministry of Truth/BBC” shows how insightful he was.
Interesting debate you are having down here. While studying at university in South Africa in the nineties I came across my fair share of leftist professors. They were absolutely rigid in their beliefs. Our English lecturers were shameless in promoting their favourite authors while hiding their faults. As an example, they taught T.S. Eliot while refusing to expose the anti-Semitic nature of some of his poetry. I got a little annoyed on reading their copious and learned evaluations of the poem “Gerontion” in tutorial letters and finding that they completely omitted the central theme of the poem – which was its anti-Semitism. I wrote the professor and one or two lecturers that I had no objection to studying anti-Semitic literature but strongly objected to being misled, rather than educated, by my lecturers. I demanded that they stop the obfuscation and reveal the poem for what it was.
Needless to say, I got nowhere. Eliot was the star of their show and they would not not entertain the idea of any negative comment on his poetry. The lecturers huddled together in protective silence – one actually begged me not to take the matter further, fearing for his job – and the professor wrote me a defensive, offended letter, assuring me that the English department would never mislead its students.
The history department was the same. They failed my essays when I deviated from the exclusively leftist line laid down for us to obediently follow.
And they say higher education broadens the mind. Well, it used to, I guess.
Jon,
Spare me your tiresome clichéd abuse. I am neither a great supporter of the EU in its current guise nor a socialist (don’t get many of those in the City). It just p*sses me off reading half arsed, lazy Daily Mail crap about how we’re all enslaved in this country which is promptly snapped up by gullible foreigners.
Good to see that enjoying oneself and ones salary is frowned on by conservatives now also – when did that happen? What we should be doing of course is sitting on our arses at home whingeing about non existent Brussels derived restrictions on our freedom.
Anyway, debate…. I basically agree that the EU – particularly the ludicrous Commission – needs to be more democratic. I agree that EU law should not extend beyond basic provisions needed to enforce a free market and at the very least in its UK guise should be drafted by competent individuals rather than the morons who came up with the HR act. (I also agree that left wing self haters, particularly in the academic profession are the scum of the earth).
However Britain’s influence is increasing, Germany has gone rightwards, France looks like going likewise, the new E European states are fans of low tax and markets. A continent wide free market based on less regulatory lines and with newly successful trading partners in the East sounds good to me.
JAA
Taking your comment on hatred of “our comfortable and prosperous lifestyle” out of context I’d just like to give you peace of mind that this is something that Europeans enjoy more often than not. Some parts of this site may have given you a different impression but frankly those not living a “comfortable and prosperous lifestyle” in the UK after the 80s boom and 10 years of economic stability under Labour only have themselves or extreme bad luck to blame.
I’ve lived worked in numerous European and US cities over the last few years and the lifestyle and prosperity of SE England, Germany, Northern Italy, Scandinavia etc are every bit the equal of East coast US. France and the Med countries are a bit different – less pay, far more leisure time – but hardly inferior if you value a bit of r and r and a nice bottle of vino.
Don’t believe the (anti)hype
I’m not sure how old you are Robbiekeane but I would venture no more than early thirties.
On the other hand I’ve just turned 60 so I well remember the British public being sold a pup by Ted Heath and Geoffrey Rippon. My conscience is clear in as much that I voted against joining what was billed as the ‘Common Market’ in the referendum.
Cabinet papers released since that event show that Heath and particularly Rippon gave away the family silver just to keep the French sweet. They really did see us coming.
The whole thing was sold as a free trade entity not a federal state with unelected and corrupted apparatchiks ignoring democratic decisions to push their socialist agenda.
You make mention of Ireland and taxation but you fail to mention the extravagant EU munificence that has been showered on the Irish economy since they joined.
In all honesty I cannot think of one benefit that the UK derives from being a member of Socialist International.
The lunatic idea that we will suffer tradewise if we left the EU is just that, lunatic. If we leave are they going to stop trading with us. No of course not. There is an unhealthy trade inbalance between us and the rest of Europe which works in their favour. They’re not going to cut their noses.
Finally, we in this country are always being castigated for being ‘bad’ Europeans and little Englanders, but ask yourself this, which country consistently flouts EU legislation when it is not in their interests to observe it? Which country refuses point blank to pay the fines levied against it? Which country benefits most from the CAP, and which country benefits the most from the preposterous dual parliament system (Brussels/Strasbourg).
Have we been suckered? You bet we have. I’m I leaving the UK for good this year? You bet I am. Am I going somewhere where my food bills aren’t augmented by 30% to fund the CAP. You bet I am.
I just caught your post Robbiekeane | 03.05.07 – 9:13 am | after I posted above.
My apologies, you came across in your earlier posts as a rabid EU dog, so don’t take my post personally.
However you state;
However Britain’s influence is increasing, Germany has gone rightwards, France looks like going likewise, the new E European states are fans of low tax and markets.
Believe me these things a cyclical, but each time the curve flattens more in favour of socialism
Sorry have to abandon the discussion. I may be 60 but my 2 year old daughter demands my time now. Will speak further later.
Cheers TPO,
I am indeed in my early thirties (well spotted!), but I don’t think that invalidates my opinion as obviously different demographics have different experiences of the EU. Jon’s comment that “robbiekeane is doing well out of the anti-democratic EU so sod everyone else – typical” should surely work both ways….
The old trade argument is a reasonable one, however the fact remains (and believe me working in finance I know) that the EU has genuinely deconstructed many of the international trade irritations, costs and barriers within the Union and opened up markets. It is much easier to run a pan European company or sub-group now, or to enter a European market. If we left these restrictions would most certainly apply as, for example, they do in trading with the US.
The benefits the UK has recently enjoyed for being a good point of entry for non-European investors into the EU may be being eroded (although thanks to London’s financial pre-eminence not as much as the doomsayers would have tou believe) but that is the government’s fault not Brussels. There is still too much red tape and regulation but as Britain’s role increases (and I don’t see any evidence given global economic trends that it shouldn’t continue to) and with the downfall of the German and French left this will also improve. It’s not enough to juts say that socialism will reassert itself cos it always does.
Best of luck in your future life overseas but in my relatively short one I have to say that I’ve yet to find anywhere with a higher quality of life than the nicer bits of Europe all factors taken into consideration. I hope you’ve not been sold an over-hyped dream.
Oh re: Ireland – I ‘fail to mention the extravagant EU munificence that has been showered on the Irish economy since they joined’.
Au contraire – in my opinion this is one of the main reasons why Ireland is now such a shining economic success. I can’t believe that anyone wouldn’t see the benefits that a shining economic success overseas provides to the UK – a trading partner, investment opportunities, inward investment. Would the NI situation have been immeasurably improved (and cheaper) if Eire was still a poverty stricken cauldron of anti-Brit resentment?
If you want to improve things in the long run you need to invest – same in Latvia, Czech Rep, Poland, Hungary. This isn’t cash being p*ssed up the wall.
Just off out with little one when caught your above.
I am indeed in my early thirties (well spotted!), but I don’t think that invalidates my opinion
Quite and I’m sorry if it came across as patronising. The point was you can read all you want about the Battle of Trafalgar, but you actually had to be there to smell the grapeshot.
Likewise most people who were aware of the debates at the time and who voted in the referendum have a different slant on those who came later.
None of those of my generation who I know would now vote yes.
I’ll have to come back to you later on the pros & cons, but I will say this re over-hyped dreams. Had little one not come along, just about now we’d be moving to the Med, Greece or Italy. Now she’s here we are basing all our decisions on her future. The wife works for a multinational oil company hence the move to Alberta.
Believe me we’ve researched this.
Must go – come back to you later.
Bryan,
I did not have the luxury of finishing college as a young person and returned much later in life to get my degree. It is my belief that “returning” (adult), students are every leftist professor’s worst nightmare. We are not empty vessels willing to be filled with leftist clap trap. We are not inexperienced kids who will quietly accept ridicule should we not tow the leftist line, and we do not hesitate to debate positions we think are opposed to democracy and freedom.
I had one professor, who I quoted above who would not allow discussion on any subject. He was an English professor who would lecture on a story, poem, book or whatever that the rest of the class had not read yet. Then he would assign the reading and we would not have any further discussion of the piece, for as he explained, “once I have given you my opinion there isn’t anything else to say.” I laughed out loud, I thought he was kidding. Stupid me, I thought we were there to discuss literature, we had 32 students in the class I expected 32 different opinions on the readings. Not allowed.
One day he began lecturing on a Hemingway essay called “Hills Like White Elephants.” If you are not familiar with this story, it is about a couple coming to terms with ending an unwanted pregnancy. Somehow the term “White Elephant” became symbolic for the Republican Party which launched him into a frenzied attack on Ronald Reagan and the Prolife movement here in the States.
This professor had an agenda, and every story that he chose to discuss could be connected to his politics and promoted as the only world view. Leftism can not stand scrutiny, it crumbles every time.
Robbiekeane,
When I spoke about “our” comfortable lifestyle, I meant the entire Western world as I believe we Westerners enjoy a better standard of living than most. 🙂
robbiekeen – you seem to be so full of the “economic benefits of the EUej zbio03wu o0i3v9 p[8bu
Sorry about the last post my computer went strange.
roobiekeane – you seem to be full of the “economic benefits” of the UK being in the EU – but economics is not everything. You also say that the commision could be more democratic – well on this I agree. But how can they be democratic? The commision is made up of representatives from all the EU countries. Lets say we had a chance to vote for a commisioner – thats 1 voice in 25 what chance would there be for 1 person to represent the interests of a country. And even if you could have 10 people to represent you that would be 10 in 250. Have you ever watched the European Song Contest – that is voted on by representatives of each of the countries – would you say that the outcome of the contest is always fair?
It is no different than what would and is happening now in the EU. If you think that the UK should not be able to govern itself – then that is entirley up to you. My main point is that the only way to have democracy is that no matter who you vote for that they would be a 100% behind the UK and not horse trading.
I like TPO know what we didn’t vote for in 1973 and we certainly did not vote for a sociao-economic club.
“Spare me your tiresome clichéd abuse. I am neither a great supporter of the EU in its current guise nor a socialist (don’t get many of those in the City). It just p*sses me off reading half arsed, lazy Daily Mail crap about how we’re all enslaved in this country which is promptly snapped up by gullible foreigners.”
And what is this? You just summed me up as a Conservative Daily Mail reader. I am neither. I have never bought the Daily Mail in my life
“gullible foreigners”? – Well if thats not an insult I don’t know what is.
I notice how people who believe that we have a say in our own country – gloss over or don’t mention how many directives the EU forces on the UK without any chance of opposing it. How the EU is seeing itself as a upcoming super power to see the US off. How most of the fervent EU supporters are actually anti-american.
I for one think that if you have no chance of voting out bad legislators then you are “enslaved”.
And may I just finish on saying that I did not abuse anyone – I just ridiculed your own words. But your full frontal abuse is plain to see.
The Niece Treaty – small print.
“Title II, Art 10
“Members States shall take all appropriate measures, whether general or particular, to ensure fulfillment of the obligations arising out of this Treaty or resulting from actions taken by the institutions of the Community. They shall also facilitate the achievement of the Community’s tasks.
They shall abstain from any measure which could jeopardise the objectives of the Community.”
That vital ‘Community institution’, the European Court, has long defined those obligations (cf. Case 6/64). It has ruled that we must respect both the letter of the law and the spirit – “ever closer union”, politically and economically.
“The acquis communautaire is the entire body of Community Law, including Treaties, all secondary legislation, decisions etc… by virtue of the concept, member states commit themselves to the goals of the Community as well as its Law.” (Cases 161/78 and 44/84).
It would be against this commitment for other EU members to even discuss the return of powers to national level.”
http://www.iits.dircon.co.uk/newalliance/reneg.htm
The The acquis communautaire
“..lies at the heart of the rachet process of European integration, since it commits the member states to accept all previous and future centralising measures”.
“Many politicians and officials from the applicant countries have found many specific parts of it either unsuitable for their own needs or objectionable in principle. But they are reluctantly accepting it as the price of membership that they value for political reasons. This may be part of the reason why one adviser to a central European government said that negotiating with the EU reminded her of negotiating with the nomenklatura in the old Soviet Union.”
Samuel Brittan: The Financial Times 26/04/01
http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text76_p.html
Just an American | 03.05.07 – 8:17 pm,
The left has hijacked education all over this planet. And they’ve produced countless unthinking leftist knee-jerk reacters such as the “journalists” who work for the BBC.
Bryan | 03.05.07 – 7:20 am | #
“Interesting debate you are having down here”
Bryan it was a very interesting debate until the nasty abuse put out by “I didn’t mean to be offensive” robbiekeane began his personal abuses Who says among other things that the US tax burden is higher than in Ireland and when proved wrong comes out with “It just p*sses me off reading half arsed, lazy Daily Mail crap ”
So in the words of JAA – I’m outa here.
Jon,
LOL! Re: Gullible foreigner, I must be getting old that one slipped right passed me. “I’m outta here?” From an Englishman? Are you sure you’re not from Brooklyn? 😆
Bryan,
I’m not very familiar with BBC journalists, but I will bet they went to the same leftist loonie school as CNN journalists. There is a certain template that they all follow and they are as predictable as the sun coming up every morning.
Jon,
Robbiekeane has probably just caught a bit of inernetitis – the use of colourful language to insult one’s opponent.
Just an American
You should have seen the BBC hacks reporting on the Lebanon war. They were practically falling over one another in the indecent scramble to be the first to pin their Hezbollah colours to the mast.
I remember reading about a BBC reporterette weeping over Yasser Arafat, so it doesn’t surprise me that they support Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda (sp?), etc. How sad that they can’t see the death and destruction that these fanatics would bring should they ever take over the world.
Maybe they can but they think that’s the winning side and they just want to be on it?
The reporterette was Barbara Plett and her tears were induced by the sight of the “frail” old terrorist being lifted by helicopter out of Ramallah en route to France where he died.
I think it’s al Qaeda but I’ve seen other versions.
I think your spelling is correct. I know when I typed it, it just didn’t look right. As for Ms. Plett, I can’t imagine anyone shedding any tears for that old murderer. I rarely comment on another person’s appearance, but for him I will make an exception, and say he always reminded me of a frog who was in desperate need of a bath.
I don’t generally speak ill of the dead, but in his case I’ll make an exception.
In dire need of a bath was the hideous Yessir Are a Rat.
I’m going to pop upstairs to see what’s happening on the latest threads. There’s some BBC-bashing to do.