Please use this thread for comments about the BBC’s current programming and activities. This post will remain at or near the top of the blog – scroll down for new topic-specific posts. N.B. This is not an invitation for general off-topic comments, rants or chit-chat. Thoughtful comments are encouraged. Comments may also be moderated. Any suggestions for stories that you might like covered would be appreciated! It’s your space, use it wisely.
General BBC-related comment thread!
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Umbongo: I would agree with the timeline BioD put up – which does included several mathematicians who would have considered themselves islamic – in particular C820 when Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Ḵwārizmī introduced the idea of an equation, algebraic manipulation, and “algebra” as a subject in its own right. This *is* a significant contribution that is a great advance from what went before (likewise contributions C990 and C1200). I don’t think this was remotely over emphasised in the program – it merely noted that it is at this stage in the development of mathematics “algebra” started looking like we know it today rather than using a geometrical approach that had gone before.
The program wasn’t an attempt to denegrate western mathematics (see your comment 11:38), rather to show the ground work that was done elsewhere before the likes of Fibinacci/Newton/Leibniz et al took western mathematics in new directions.
Re point 1: I wasn’t aiming my comments at you there but more generally at contributers here. I may have overstated the point but there are comments that were insisting that the tone of the program was “its all because of islam and shouldnt we be so grateful…” which was not remotely the case. Du Sautoy was eulogising about *all* the people that had contributed and developed mathematics over many years, not celebrating one due to his religion and downplaying others (as suggested by GCooper 7:14 and others). The program was looking at how mathematical thinking developed and demonstrating that mathematics is a subject that has always built on what has gone before.
Re point 2: I think the OU may have has changed its policies – The program last night, although made with the OU, was not part of a degree course but part of a public engagement with science excercise that has included other programs on physics for example. It is very rare to see the old style formal “lectures” on TV anymore – the way the courses are taught has changed
I just find it a shame that, in a desperate desire to find bias around every corner, a very good program on mathematics, a subject usually starved of any coverage, has been criticised and condemned because of the, on here, disapproved of religion of some of the important mathematicians it looked at.
“I have to ask, Archduke, but is there anything wrong with recycling? It’s not a left-liberal conspiracy, it’s just practical! Also, I don’t know how old mini is, but I certainly think WW2 and the associated personalities and events is quite an advanced and in-depth study for most children, something I wouldn’t expect to learn until secondary school.
ipreferred | 14.10.08 – 11:06 am”
a sense of place, a sense of nationality, and a sense of who you are, are VASTLY more important than recycling. that should come first, not the other way round.
in my own Irish catholic upbringing, i certainly knew who Michael Collins and Eamon De Valera were from a very young age.
it goes without saying that American kids know who George Washington is.
French kids , would probably know who Napoleon is.
thats my point.
Hey George R, honestly I don’t get the BBC. If Cameron gets in he definitely must do something about either shutting it down or cutting a significant portion of its funding off.
I heard he wants to transfer BBC from being funded by license fee to being funded by tax payers money. Actually, not a bad idea because it allows him to then cut the budget of BBC or force BBC to be less bias. Don’t know how that will work though.
“The BBC and New Labour see nothing wrong with Iraqi nationalism or Zimbabwe, on the contary. The Millibands of this world shout for democracies – but only in other countries not here.
Jon | 14.10.08 – 12:06 am ”
the above should be cut out and kept…
so SPOT ON!!!
Phil,
do you remember the angst caused to the BBC by a few Cornish trawlermen who dared to fly the maple leaf in support of our Canadian cousins in the face of Spanish over fishing? There was a mush leftist tutting and earnest lectures on the importance of a unified European front.
I am fairly sure that 70% of the tossers in the BBC couldn’t find their arses with both hands far less point to Canada (second largest nation on earth) on a Mercator projection. Sorry, they are now ileagal and eurocentric – must use Peters projection.
Anyway, The debt of loyalty to our traditional friends was somewhat overshadowed by being “good Europeans” – and supporting a nation that was almost but not quite in the other side in the 40’s
To paraphrase our Troll – canada – it’s not news (unless of course you have a Marxist government elected, then lets see the flock of BBC parasites demanding fist class tickets to Toronto (the “capital city”…)
“Phil | 14.10.08 – 8:21 pm ”
the “broken society” meme of Cameron is a very big hint as to what he wants to do to the BBC…
the man isnt stupid. he knows. and he knows that we know what he knows…
Once we switch to digital the solution to the BBC is obvious. Subscription. The licence fee is no longer valid n the 21st century.
When the BBC was setup there was no other service, so you had to pay as there was no alternative.
But now with the internet being more popular, the explosion in commercial and internet radio, cable and satelltite TV there is no justification fo the TV tax.
If the BBC belives it’s as good as it claims it should welcome subscription TV as it can then compete against Sky on a commercial basis. The BBC can have its own sports channel, it can have a channel dedicated to unwshed chavs who watch Eastenders and perhaps even offer good documentaries.
Why would the BBC fear this?
re canada – dont forget that the Queen is head of state there.
then again, looks like canada might be electing a white male conservative into power again.. he’s not black.he aint a muslim.
so – no interest from the beeboids.
Why would the BBC fear this?
Martin | 14.10.08 – 8:31 pm
because the fat cats at the top of the bbc would actually have to do a days work.
thats why.
awesome..
gordon gecko is coming back , in a sequel
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1077650/Gordon-Gekko-set-credit-crisis-Wall-Street-sequel.html
i find it hilarious that the “greed is good” speech – which was intended to be a critique of capitalism – is actually one of the best arguments for free market capitalism and fiscal conservatism ever.
5.30am and Im listening to Farming Today about the troubles in the dairy sector.
To the BBC its about farmers not getting enough money from greedy supermarkets.We now have to import milk because so many have gone out of business.
One question the BBC asks is how can farmers afford to invest in costly equipment and pay for expensive transport.
What misses the BBC is how come other countries can send milk to us for the same price or cheaper. This we are never told.
One factor in it, easy to spot if you dont like big government, is TAXES.
Why dont the BBC see the link between expensive transport and fuel duty ?
How can anyone trade, let alone compete, in this world when our taxes, thus our costs, are so high ?
harpy | 14.10.08 – 4:44 pm |
To suggest, as some have done on here, that it was made to promote Islam and denigrate other religions is utterly bizarre. Still why let the facts get in the way of a good rant! Mathematics has nothing to do with religion and neither did the program,
I think what we have here is a case where the BBC has soiled its own credibility when it comes to discussing anything involving Islam, so anything they do like this will be viewed with suspicion. Most people here seem to accept – and some have made the case themselves – that there has been some significant contribution to mathematics from the old Muslim World.
The problem is that everyone has seen the BBC bend the truth or just make things up in order to present Islam and believers in Islam as not scary, better than we thought, etc. It’s all part of the BBC’s Social Cohesion policy. When the Beeboid using the moniker John Reith used to engage here, he made many statements to the effect that they were working to ease British fears about Mohammedans. In fact, he scolded us on a couple of occasions saying we should shut up about it because the BBC was just then making a huge effort to get people like us to be less afraid of Islam, all in the name of Social Cohesion.
So it’s not some paranoid, prejudiced fantasy on any of our parts. The BBC created this environment themselves, with their own actions. With this in mind, unfortunately, it’s perfectly natural to question things like this mathematics program, as it just adds to the overall narrative of “See, they’re not so bad. You’re just prejudiced”. Even if that wasn’t the case with this particular documentary, how can you know there wasn’t an editorial nudge to emphasize the Islamic contribution more than others? Just, you know, spend a little more time on algebra, keep bringing up how important that was to the rest of it. What was the impetus to create this program in the first place? It’s not unreasonable, given the BBC’s form on the subject, to wonder if this is part of that Social Cohesion policy. We know they’ve made editorial decisions like this on other shows.
However, you seem to have inadvertently hit on a key point about all of this:
you don’t learn how to solve equations in the Quran or the Bible.
When was the last time any significant contribution was made to mathematics or science from a Muslim country? Not from a Muslim individual living elsewhere, but from any Muslim society, either contemporary or in the last two or three centuries? Or even since the Turks were turned away from the Gates of Vienna? Where is the love for mathematics and science in today’s Islam? It no longer exists. Yes, there are scientists in Iran and Iraq and many Muslim countries. But they’re there for business, not to add to the endeavors of humanity. They don’t develop technology, they only acquire it from others and learn how to use it for their own ends. There have been zero Nobel Laureates living and working in Islamic societies in either Physics or Chemistry. The most backwards interpretations of Islam (which are really only a century old, and not really related to the Islamic philosophies of the Golden Age) rule the Islamic World today, or are increasingly influential. That’s a problem.
The point is, any contribution to mathematics happened in a much more enlightened Islamic world than what exists in most communities today. Of course, women were still chattel, they had eunichs, public beheadings, dismemberment for petty crimes, etc., so not so enlightened by modern standards. But they weren’t afraid of learning, they weren’t afraid of knowledge for its own sake. Science used to be a way of understanding the divine. No more.
The mathematics programme doesn’t exist in a vacuum. The problematic Islamo-fascists of today aren’t part of the society which made those contributions to the world. There seems to be an effort at the BBC to conflate the two, in order to make the problematic ones less so in the minds of the public. That’s the wrong approach, of course, but the BBC has created the context in which people here are seeing this.
John Simpson must have stashed enough of his earnings in tax haven for artists Ireland. He shouldn`t need to worry about the BBC.
Tell us, Harpy – were you in some way involved in the making of this programme, or have some other connection with the BBC?
Haha, nice replies mates. Hope Cameron gets in whenever there’s an election. I heard from a Tory blog yesterday that Brown had used the anti-Terrorism laws to seize like 3 or 4 billion dollars from Icelandic companies, charities, and people. Did that really happen?
Oh ya, and there’s also a New Zealand election and it looks like another white, conservative male will get elected.
Just before the 6 am news on R4 this morning, a short trailer about Louis Armstrong . Not much, but enough to bring in that he was black and some saw him as a stoolie for white folks.
The BBC, always mentioning the colour of an ethnics skin before his main claim to fame.
Why is the obvious question never asked? If all these wonderful people in India and China were so smart before everyone else why are they such awful, poverty stricken places now, mostly full of poorly educated peasnt people running their lives on the basis of superstitious beliefs like Hinduism, Islam and Communism?
Pete | 14.10.08 – 7:37 pm | #
Sorry, does it overcomplicate things for you if you try to take into account the possibility that development doesn’t necessarily continue endlessly in a given region? That there are too many variables to mention that might impact social and technological progress? I think I know the answer sadly.
As for stonehenge, I don’t think anyone is disputing the technical sophistication required in its construction. Unfortunately, compare it with the degree of development in say, neolithic mesopotamia, millenia before stonehenge was built, it’s not quite so impressive.
No written evidence found concerning its construction? Well fancy that! Doesn’t say anything about their level of development does it – I’m sure they just decided over here cuneiform was a bit of a lame idea.
Phil | 14.10.08 – 8:47 pm
yes he did.
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/opinion-former-index/economy-and-finance/iceland-bank-freeze-used-anti-terror-laws–$1244102.htm
“The UK government implemented anti-terror laws to freeze the estimated £4 billion worth of British financial assets in a failed Icelandic bank, it has been revealed. ”
which is why the Iceland government has gone to Russia to get a loan.
Smart work Brown – push a fellow NATO member into the arms of Putin…
GCooper: No, I have no connection with the BBC or the program at all – although I have met the presenter once at a conference.
My interest in the program was due to being a professional mathematician with a great interest in Mathematical history and the development of mathematical ideas (as well as my normal job of applying modern mathematics to industrial problems). I watched (along with my non-mathematical family) to see how well they conveyed the ideas and the history, which they did pretty well (a few computer-aided graphics withstanding). The comments here were so out of kilter with what was actually in the program that I felt I should highlight it.
As you are obviously a student of arcaheology, Anonymous, perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to which particular sites from ‘neolithic mesopotamia’ you believe outshine Stonehenge?
Particular reference to the ones built ‘millenia before stonehenge’ (sic) would be specially helpful.
archduke,
well ain’t that nice of brownie. isn’t his chancellor also that guy that resigned twice because of corruption allegations and has just since come back from the EU gravy train?
hey anon, perhaps the aboriginal inhabitants of this island wrote on perishable material. Unfired clay tablets in Britain would return to mud in a few months. There are quite a few indications that some form of writing, probably restricted to a power group, was present – it’s just that we haven’t found it yet. On the other hand perhaps they just picked fleas off of each other and scratched their bollocks – there is no evidence
harpy | 14.10.08 – 9:02 pm
oh right.. so what about the bit about the Koran encouraging knowledge?
sorry mate – but you’re so blind that you cannot see the obvious.
Carl Sagan in his “Cosmos” series never once mentioned Islam.
he did mention “ARAB” mathematicians and scientists though… which is factually correct.
he did not – EVER – try to big up a religion.
the bbc should watch that series again. and again.
and then come up with a proper science program.
not this pro-islamic mumbo jumbo bollocks.
Harpy – thank you. It is always interesting when newcomers suddenly appear before our eyes, like so many djinns. Perhaps on his occasion it really is genuine.
Phil | 14.10.08 – 9:05 pm | #
no – Mandy is some sort of “business” minister, rather than chancellor.
archduke, when do you think you guys will have an election?
Phil,
given the New Liebour propensity to employ ant-terror laws it is quite possible that a ‘national emergency’ will emerge to postpone elections.
Better yet we may have multiple elections if we get the ‘wrong answer’ – Europe has plenty of precedents for this (Austria, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland, France)
archduke: But the truth is that, during the age that these developments were taking place, there was a desire and encouragement to chase knowledge in Islamic countries. As David put it “Science used to be a way of understanding the divine” and this was true in Islamic culture then as much as it was true in Christianity. That was the point being made in the program, not that the Koran somehow makes Islam more scientific.
At no time was any claim made suggesting it was still the case. Again, as David points out, recent developments in science and mathematics do not come from the Islamic world, rather they come from the west, eastern Europe, Russia, China (depending upon which branch of mathematics you choose to follow).
But how is an investigation into the history of mathematics not going to give credit to the arabic mathematicians who advanced the subject? Agreed if the program said “all mathematics is due to Islam” that would be biased. It didn’t. It went through a wide range of people (indian, chinese, arabs along with Egyptians/Greeks/etc from the first episode) and discussed how they had advanced the subject.
The point is, *during that time*, Islamic countries were at the forefront of science and mathematics and we still use many of their ideas today. Times change of course…
Martin | 13.10.08 – 11:40 pm |
And
Archduke (around the same time)
Thanks for the info – very informative. I did repond at the time but my post has disolved.
After all this time I shouldn’t be suprised but I’m am still slightly astonished that the BBC has failed to mention any of this at all.
Do they not employ journalists. Answers on a postcard …
The Cattle Prod of Destiny: Was that the ACORN stuff? The fact the BBC haven’t mentioned it (or when Greg Palast did he just skipped over it) and the links ot Obama just shows what poor standards of reporting the BBC has.
No one is saying the BBC should over hype it, but give people the facts. After all they happily spout the lies about Palin day after day.
Let us see if this gets a mention on the bbc website. An horific tale if ever there was one, bit it is the sort of thing the beeb likes to play down.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1077622/Teenage-girl-gang-raped-covered-burning-caustic-soda.html
Teenage girl ‘gang raped and covered in burning caustic soda’
A teenager with learning difficulties was gang raped by up to ten youths who then showered her ‘head to toe’ with burning caustic soda, a court heard today.
The attackers left the girl ‘naked, screaming, crying and in a desperate state’ as they ran away laughing, it was alleged.
They had picked on the shy 16-year-old because they claimed she was a ‘dirty ho who was asking for it’, Wood Green Crown Court in North London heard.
As you are obviously a student of arcaheology, Anonymous, perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to which particular sites from ‘neolithic mesopotamia’ you believe outshine Stonehenge?
Particular reference to the ones built ‘millenia before stonehenge’ (sic) would be specially helpful.
GCooper | 14.10.08 – 9:04 pm | #
Abu shahrain? I’m particularly impressed with sites consistent with the halaf culture and the sophisticated trade networks that obviously existed. Not quite so showy of course, but then that’s part of ‘arcaheology’ (sic). Of course one wonders how such an area ended up eventually making such thick green crap ceramics – another example of development not going in straight lines.
hey anon, perhaps the aboriginal inhabitants of this island wrote on perishable material. Unfired clay tablets in Britain would return to mud in a few months. There are quite a few indications that some form of writing, probably restricted to a power group, was present – it’s just that we haven’t found it yet. On the other hand perhaps they just picked fleas off of each other and scratched their bollocks – there is no evidence
It’s all too much | 14.10.08 – 9:05 pm | #
Of course that’s a possibility, something like quipu wouldn’t last a minute in our climate. But then there’s nothing past speculation yet and it’s possible to say a lot of things 🙂
Richard Lancaster: if I may remind you, your original claim was: “Unfortunately, compare it with the degree of development in say, neolithic mesopotamia, millenia before stonehenge was built, it’s not quite so impressive.”
I’m not sure you have established any useful point of comparison. Certainly not if you were, as you seemed to be, trying to downplay the significance of Stonehenge.
Richard Lancaster | 14.10.08 – 9:45 pm |
Abu shahrain? I’m particularly impressed with sites consistent with the halaf culture and the sophisticated trade networks that obviously existed. Not quite so showy of course, but then that’s part of ‘arcaheology’ (sic). Of course one wonders how such an area ended up eventually making such thick green crap ceramics – another example of development not going in straight lines.
I blame the Aryan, Indo-European invaders of the 5th Millenium BCE for the pottery.
But isn’t calling quipu “writing” a bit of a speculative stretch as well? As far as I know, it’s an accounting system (which can be the launching pad for a real writing system, yes, but it’s not written language).
While everyone’s in a speculative mood, writing systems have been developed independently in at least four different times and places in human history. At least. So who can say, yet? Although, I admit it’s pretty unlikely that it was developed by pre- or proto-Celtic peoples, or that Cheddar Man knew how to write his name.
Aren’t Cheddar men Green Bay Packer fans? I bet Justin Webb is a Redskins man.
Come on lads: pre-history is not fecund territory for this site. Newsnight has just started. Let us get red-faced at Spartist-mediabot perfidy.
Newsnight wanking on about Sarah Palin again.
She was never picked to get independent voters, that’s McCain’s job. She was picked to shore up the Republican base which McCain can’t get.
Just how thick IS the BBC?
No it isn’t. You’re mistaking Yvette Cooper for Palin. Call yourself a Republican.
The delusion of contributors to this website knows no bounds. They even parrot Republican talking points as if they were true.
The Ayers and Wright slurs emanating from the Faux News set are dumb, not just because Hilary Clinton raised and failed to dent Mr Obama’s rise to the Democrat nomination with them, but becuase there is simply no story there.
What was that? They both held seats on the board of a Chicago community Group at the same time and, er, well, that is it! Never mind that there are other Republicans on the board too (mainly because it is funded by a Conservative group – go figure!).
As for the ACORN gambit, well that is another bit of Faux News hysteria over a non story. ACORN helps to register inner city voters (amongst other worthy work) and takes it upon itself to report any instances where it suspects there may be irregularities in registration either by spotting multiple registrations or erroneous addresses etc. ACORN is not the perpertrator of the fraud, although the Beeb haters here who swallow all Faux News talking points without question seem not to realise this.
Of course all that Faux is really worried about is that thousands of potential and motivated Obama voters are hitting the roles this time around, and they’re rightly mad with the Repugnant administration (and attempts to smear the Democrats by any desperate means possible).
Meanwhile, Sarah Palin is an associate of a true America Hater, a man who has publicly stated his disdain for American institutions (which by extension must include the military). Not a squeak about this is uttered on the Right, yet another major example of rigfhtwing hypocrisy at its most astounding.
The American people aren’t buying the smears this time around. They got badly burned last time and don’t fancy the same rightwing schmucks dragging their great country any further into the gutter thanks.
The BBC has no role to play in the decision Americans make on 4th November. The urgency to vote Democrat comes from an experience of 8 years of indulgent Republican rule.
Dear god! Now we are being afflicted with Democrat astroturfers!
Just who do you think you’re kidding, BenM?
Newsnight’s very boring. Just germans banging on about their economy. I will be very angry if i’ve stayed up this late for nothing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7670611.stm
Only story about the Tories on the BBC politics page is a negative one about Osborne, and comes pretty much entirely from gossip in the Treasury; the department which clapped Gordon Brown as he went to No.10. Why don’t the BBC look at all the leaking Peston has been doing before making up crap about Osborne?
GCooper | 14.10.08 – 10:06 pm | #
I was just stating that it paled in comparison to the level of development in mesopotamia (some time before it). So there’s Stonehenge, versus sites documented in the near east, displaying a range of developments and technologies associated with the emergence of complex society. Do you think stonehenge alone is sufficient evidence towards comparable levels of development with cultures covering a vast region?
Harpy
“a very good program on mathematics”
I can’t agree with you there although I agree that mathematics is a subject woefully ignored in the media. Setting aside any thoughts about Islam, this programme is an example of the failure to convey anything but a confusing and unclear idea of its subject by refusing to ask for some intellectual commitment from the viewer but, rather, seeking purely to entertain him and hoping that something will rub off. This programme, in other words, exemplifies the sheer contempt of programme makers for the viewer: they couldn’t have made this programme any simpler or more patronising and, thereby, less informative for the intelligent viewer who genuinely wanted to know more about the subject.
The programme was a jumble of picturesque mathematical “explanations” of particular problems or puzzles (the Moroccan dye works was a case in point) where a lecture to camera in front of a blackboard would have been far more informative. “Talking heads” a la A J P Taylor is desperately unfashionable and the very opposite of 21st century television. However, the viewer of the 50s and 60s came away from those programmes knowing far more about the subject under discussion than he would from, for instance, watching Simon Schama spouting his prejudices while strolling around the Hoover Dam or de Sautoy pointing out (at enormous and unnecessary expense) the intricate beauty of a mosque or the massive logistical problems faced by the builders of the Great Wall.
David Preiser (USA) | Homepage | 14.10.08 – 10:32 pm | #
I more meant as an example of recording methods generally. What do you think of Diamond’s explanations for development trajectories?
“Mr Brown has just revealed new plans for a £1 billion expansion of childcare facilities at a time when many families are struggling to get by and the country has the largest budget deficit of all developed nations.”
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=73525
This happened last month so is he shelving this “inititive”?.
Also , I maybe a bit thick on this subject, but just where is Brown going to get all this money to bail out the banks, it must be done through borrowing surely. But who from? Then what happens if the banks cannot pay it back? The shares of the 2 banks that have been “part nationalised” are going down sharply. If they fail the only thing that the treasury can do is raise even more taxes.
Maybe Balls is abolishing Stats for 14 year olds not because he wants to but that would save 150 million pounds per year. Yet only last August Jim Knight
“..denied the tests for 11- and 14-year-olds were leading to pupils being only taught to pass the exams.
Responding to the Commons schools select committee, Knight said tests helped keep the education system accountable and parents informed”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2008/jul/22/sats.schools4
And in 2007 Ed Balls said
“I know that some teachers and teachers unions want me to abolish national tests and I’m not going to do that. And the reason is cos I think parents want to know the information, not only about their child but how their school is doing.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/7123608.stm
No doubt he will be made out to be another New Labour hero.
Why doesn’t the media challenge these people – most of these hacks seem to have very short memories (thats if they have any at all)
jon: The government gets the money from the ….banks.
So the Government borrows from the banks and then gives the money back to the banks who then lend it to us at a hiked up interest rate.
So we get shit on from two angles (we pay the interest on the money borrowed and when it’s loaned to us)
The Government could print the money, but that would simply add to inflation and we’d be walking arounds with billion pound notes to buy a coffee.
The snot eater just can’t stop spending money.
The BBC are so far up his arse.
But the truth is this.
Imagine getting invited to a huge party. At that party there is Champagne and cheap hookers (or rent boys for beeboids) available. You get pissed up and get Champers all night. You think your friend (who likes to eat snot) is really great for throwing you that party.
Problem is, as you leave the party, your friend hands you the bill for the evening and says “hope you enjoyed it, I did”
You wake up the following morning with the crumpled bill in still in your hands (and a thumping headache) wondering a. why you were so stpupid and b. how the f**k you’re going to pay the money back.
Your snot eating friend meanwhile met some people at the party and has now gone himself a nice job in the city and won’t return your calls anymore.
Further to the above post – I’m afraid Browns hero worship maybe premature – just how much can this coutry borrow?
“Government borrowing has soared to its highest level since records began more than 60 years ago, it was announced yesterday as Gordon Brown was accused of losing his grip on the economy.
Official figures showed that the budget deficit soared to £24.4 billion in the three months to June – the biggest shortfall since comparable records began in 1946. ”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/2793419/Gordon-Brown-has-%27lost-his-grip-on-the-economy%27-as-borrowing-soars.html
And how much more will he borrow to rescue the banks? This bloke has lost the plot and the BBC hold him up as a hero!!! What is the oppostion doing supporting him?
Martin | 15.10.08 – 12:19 am |
Thanks for that – but surely you can only tax the population so much – there must be a limit.
It gets worse than I thought.
“Crowning the worst year for the trade deficit since figures for imports and exports were first collected in Stuart times, the government admitted yesterday that Britain was just under £56bn in the red in 2006.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/feb/10/politics.economicpolicy
It will all end in tears.
“I urged the Chancellor to try to get more private capital into these banks, to cut the risks of the taxpayer. If the taxpayer is to stand behind £3 trillion of bank assets, it puts us at great risk. If the assets turn out to be worth just 1% less than the current value, that loses the taxpayer their share of £30 billion of loss.”
http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/
Maybe the US can afford to prop up banks – but with the sate of our economy surely we can’t.