Hats off to the BBC. It manages to run this item today on the subject of new laws aimed at outlawing forced marriages without ever once mentioning Islam. Well done BBC – consummate skill. Forced marriages, along with “honour murder” is just part of the rich cultural heritage that Islam has been bringing into the UK but you would be hard-pressed to figure that from the BBC’s coverage.
FORCED MARRIAGES.
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You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head yet again Mr Vance. I won’t be buying you a hammer for Christmas, the one you’re using is working just fine!
The BBC journalists need to read and refer to this report:
“Crimes of the Community: Honour-based violence in the UK” (by James Brandon and Salam Hafez, 2008.)
Chapter 2: ‘Forced Marriage’
[Extract]:
“the majority of people who use their
services to escape an arranged
marriage are Pakistani. Shaminder
Ubhi, director of Ashiana, a women’s refuge in Leyton, East London, says:
“‘Forced marriage exists mostly in South Asian communities because
of the size of the population and the services that are provided for
women fleeing such cases. However, the problem of forced marriage
is also high in other communities such as the Turkish and Kurdish.'”
While forced marriages are not exclusive to Muslims,
the Report says:
“In many communities, families can force their daughters to marry
members of their own community if they are dating or planning
to marry someone from another community. Gona Saed, director
of Middle East Centre for Women’s Rights, says:
“‘There is suspicion of any outsiders. One very big issue around forced
marriage is Sharia law and marrying a non-Muslim. In Islamic Sharia
law a Muslim woman is strictly forbidden to marry a non-Muslim. For
example, if a girl falls in love with a guy at college and he is not a Muslim,
the family will object to the marriage, definitely. They will probably
force her to stop seeing him and marry someone else.'” (p.12).
The Centre for Social Cohesion 160 page report is available in PDF format here:
Click to access CrimesOfTheCommunity.pdf
Woman’s hour’s got a story about a Pakistani senator sanctioning the burying alive of 3 young women for the heinous crime of daring to choose their own fiance. Also 5 girls, again sanctioned by a politician, have been given to another family in compensation for a murder when the dude was acquited.
Now whilst Karzai in Afghanistan seems a bit heavy handed seemingly intending to execute 10 guys for throwing acid in the face of 2 girls – how the hell is it that I heard about that crime, it’s progress and now its outcome yet have heard sweet FA about 3 lasses being buried alive for sod all???
It beggars belief.
Whilst in some way to be respected. These actions are already illegal under half a dozen laws the PC Police Force refuse to impose on the ROP.
I predict this will be just yet another law the ROP will ignore.
Kill the Beeb says “Fuck off Troll” when I point out how he responds to Cockney’s point by entering into a highly entertaining argument with some imaginary person he thinks Cockney represents. Is no one going to call him on his behaviour?
Well, as this seem to be acceptable, Kill the beeb, with respect, kindly FUCK OFF YOU FUCKING CUNT.
Shit, wrong thread. Ah well.
Taiko, if we ever disagree, please accept my sincerest apologies in advance. 🙂
Oh lordy, I think I had better give up my flowery language campaign.
It is a pleasant thought..thinking of a little beeb hack beavering away at reports like this in continual torment at the thought of the truth of the subject slipping out by accident.
do shotgun marriages count? or do I have to be more careful with my sexual favours?
David, has the original article been edited because there is now a mention of the “M” word ?
I swear it was not there this morning!! ? Must be my age.
Trifecta – this site is pretty useful for these kind of things:
http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/176677/diff/4/5
one for the ‘better late then never’ category
Sarah Jane | 25.11.08 – 2:25 pm
yeah, TEN versions of a simple story, and they still can’t just tell it straight.
David; bit off topic but can’t wait for the story about the WI spying on potential prossies–Harriet Harman I think or some other vacuum brain came up with it. BBC have been very high + mighty about all these “fallen women” being exploited by pimps in black top hats (Tory peers?)
Anyway carry on.
Taiko-san:
Allan@Oslo:
Fuck off ‘Trolls’.
Sorry Allan@Oslo, I cut and pasted the wrong username. Taiko-san is using multiple ‘san’ user names which he ditches each time he loses an argument defending his beloved Beeb. Allan@Oslo is clearly not one of them. Allan@Oslo san maybe.
Interesting that the statement about 65% of cases being linked to Pakistan didn’t appear in the first 5 versions of the story.
By the time such details finally emerge from the PC whitewash in subsequent edits most readers have already moved on.
David, I’m surprised you missed a trick.
The ‘government’ poster that accompanies the report shows two white hands chained together. Naturally.
Just like all the ‘government’ benefit cheat posters which show nothing but white person after white person.
As we all know, if you have brown skin you are merely a victim of crime, never a perpetrator.
What’s the e-mail for complaining about a BBC report on-line? I could do with a laugh.
And where’s whitewhinemathsteacher and Richard Wancaster’s comments on this thread? They are strangely quiet.
Why does it always have to be about portraying Islam as evil? Even without any reference to it, this article sure seemed like forced marriages are an ugly element in Turkish, Iranian, and South Asian cultures. The ethnic element was only reinforced by the quotes from the support groups. No multi-culti whitewashing in this case.
And then at the end they even admit that 65% of victims….er…”all known cases”…are of Pakistani origin. Jainists, probably.
Seriously, this ought to be held up as an example of the BBC admitting that there are some cultures other than white British Christians which have unpleasant elements, no bias, no attempt to soften the focus. They’re admitting to a chink in their multi-culti armor, so who cares about Islam in this case? The focus on always trying to blame Islam has blinded David Vance to the more practical elements.
Fortunately, they found a way to slip in the “M” word under the aegis of the Scottish Forced Marriage Network. (Is it just my United Statesian perspective, or does that name sound like it’s a group of people who engage in the practice rather than for victim support?)
Still, I don’t think anyone can make a case that this report is biased in favor of caveman cultures. The whole problem with Islamo-fascism is not the religion per se, but the caveman culture from which it derives. It’s a cultural, behavioral thing, above and beyond religion. That’s what has to be addressed. Islam needs a Reformation and Enlightenment, no question. But it’s a cultural thing, not solely religious.
This kind of treatment of women existed long before Mohammed was a twinkle in his uncircumcised father’s eye. Islam just took the ball and ran with it. This is basic caveman crap, and is just another facet of the problem underlying the Leftoid and BBC Narrative of cultural (and, by extension, moral) relativism. The fact that the BBC is willing to admit it probably shows just how bad the problem really is.
They didn’t try to hide it this time. I think bitching about Islam is entirely beside the point here.
This is just silly.
Why does Islam have to be mentioned?
Did you want the BBC to mention that the killers of baby P were Christians? What about the father who raped his two daughters over 25 yrs? Should he be described as “the Christian father who…”? What about Shannon Mathews mother? Should the BBC describe her as that Christian mother?
You should either get a life, or join the BNP.
Just out of interest, how do you know any of those you’ve mentioned are Christians?
no fan of the bbc | 25.11.08 – 4:16 pm |
Did you want the BBC to mention that the killers of baby P were Christians? What about the father who raped his two daughters over 25 yrs? Should he be described as “the Christian father who…”? What about Shannon Mathews mother? Should the BBC describe her as that Christian mother?
The problem with your argument is that if you asked anyone who killed their female relative in an “honor killing” if their religion informed their actions, they would say, “yes”. That’s obviously not the case for the Baby P killers, or Shannon Matthews, or anything like that.
You should either get a life, or join the BNP.
The practice of forced marriages and the associated violence against women is intolerable. I condemn any culture which teaches it and encourages it. Does that make me BNP by default?
If so, do you tolerate this practice, simply because to object would be racist?
The BBC did a TV series about forced marriage suggesting it was a really good thing for the west to adopt. Oh yes of course it is. I wonder how many BBC lesbians will be forced into marrying a man then?
no fan of beeb
u cant compare the two as Baby P was not killed because of christianity whereas teenage girls are being forced into marriage becuase of Islam, and if thy dont play ball, the religion of peace permits honour killed
kind regards
Lou
please excuse my spelling
no fan of the BBC 4:16
I think the point is that forced marriages are more common among Muslims than Christians and many Muslims use their religion as a justification.
Your reference to the BNP is rather lost on me. Maybe you could explain ?
The point is that in christian societies really nasty behaviour towards women/children by their families is the exception. and in every case the christian church authorities of all denominations would condem the cruelty.
In Muslim society degrading women forced marrage and honour murders while not universal are common enough for people outside that culture to be able to see that there is something wrong in that culture.
I think david at 4.12 makes a very important point. Are we to take DR congo’s “rebels for christ” at their word, and look to christian pentecostalism for an explanation of their actions?
Britain insists on importing an ideology which is at odds with women’s rights. Is there a point to this?
“THE Government’s craven appeasement of militant Islam is plumbing new depths.
Under the guise of promoting tolerance, Ministers are tearing apart the legal fabric that was once part of the bedrock of our civilised society”.
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/68081
.
Mikewine 5:54
Of course various groups hijack religions, including Christianity, for their own ends.
But, I think the point here is that the appalling treatment of women by Muslims is actually embedded in the religion itself and the teachings of Imams and religious “scholars”. It is part of the religion, not a minority aberration.
And the BBC should be exposing it. It is just another example of BBC bias. Whatever Muslims do, the BBC will support them, partly because of the BBC’s inherent anti-semitism, but also its hatred of Western Christian values and general cowardliness.
I say this as an atheist married to a Muslim ,who was not cut off from her family when she married me. So there are exceptions !
This is hardly surprising. The BBC is mainly a mass manufacturer of trash entertainment. It’s be odd if its news was of a high standard.
no fan of the bbc:
Is your username supposed to be ironic?
Only Beeboids would use ‘what about Christians?’ in an attempt to defend Islam.
Oh there you are mikewineliberal | 25.11.08 – 5:54 pm
Far be it for me to chase someone from thread to thread, but
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/335865891540748292/#433025
For a moment I thought you had been forced underground. But now you’re back let’s hear what you thought was so shocking.
You misread Rob’s first comment ‘accidentally on purpose’ as we used to say, and made an insinuating snipe, then you quoted from him:
“I can see no other option but for the rest of humanity as an act of self-protection to forcibly suppress their religion by whatever method is necessary.”
Accidentally leaving out the preceding qualification:
“if they begin to use biological and nuclear weapons, ..”
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/335865891540748292/#432902
Then you ask innocently
Or am I reading this incorrectly?
You are reading it incorrectly, selectively, and with malice aforethought.
Instead of feigning shock and insinuating that we are inciting a genocidal final solution, do tell us the correct way to go about resisting Islamist aggression.
Ask them nicely? Make everyone wear a burqua? Hand over Israel? Give them the BBC?
Oh no, we’ve already done that.
I’m not feigning anything. I find what rob said disgusting on every level, as did another poster. I support what the west is doing to resist islamist aggression. But I wouldn’t support the suppression of 1.2bn people’s religion if the taleban get hold of and use a biological weapon.
Would you?
“But I wouldn’t support the suppression of 1.2bn people’s religion if the taleban get hold of and use a biological weapon.
Would you?”
Not really. We’d probably all be dead.
” what rob said”
Exactly what was the disgusting thing he said?
i dont get this – why should there be laws against “forced” marriages.
for starters – what is the definition of “forced”?
and from that bbc report:
“The laws mean anyone convicted of trying to force someone into marriage could be jailed for up to two years. ”
note the UP TO two years.. which means that this is utter bollocks and just another spindoctor government press relese.
but seriously folks – while you might applaud this when applied to muslim forced marriages, i have no doubt that it will be applied to christian english who egg their daughter on to “do the right thing”
and thus , we have yet another deconstruction of christian marriage, under the guise of “forced marriages”
stand back and think about what these cunts are actually doing…
“If they keep producing generations of narcissistic murderers, as they have done from the time of Muhammmad in direct emulation of him, and if they begin to use biological and nuclear weapons, which they eventually will, I can see no other option but for the rest of humanity as an act of self-protection to forcibly suppress their religion by whatever method is necessary.
“The more I learn about Islam, and the more I talk to muslims, the more I fear it’s going to have to be “one down, 1.2 billion to go”
“I see islam as a form of fascism ”
“I have lived amongst muslims – particularly omanis and pakistanis – most of my life – I find them generally intolerant, ignorant, rude, arrogant, and prone to easy violence,”
“I think their religion …. is a threat to all non-muslim humanity.”
You’re ok with this?
Mikewine 9:33
I realise you are busy, but can you address the points I made above ?
I’ll start by saying that though many of you disagree with me, the debate has been very good natured, and I’m impressed.
This message is not a repeat of my post at 16:16…but I can’t resist mentioning the Lords Resistance Army. They are a Christian guerrilla army, described by the media in general as “The Lords Resistance Army”. And I am not be in favour of them being described as “Christian fighters”.
David Preiser (USA) 16:56 made the point that the actions of the killers of Baby P were not informed by their religion. I agree.
But I am a Muslim, and I have not been informed by my religion to kill female relatives.
People who kill over “honour” do just that. They are embarrassed and ashamed by the behaviour of their daughters/sisters etc and feel they have to prevent shame on themselves and the family. – this has nothing to do with my religion. They are criminals who ought to be prosecuted
Not every one of them is a Muslim, and as I argue above, even if many of them are, this is not because of a religious commandment.
I should also respond to David Preiser’s point on the BNP. Perhaps I went too far in my earlier post. But I am also against violence towards women, and this is primarily because of what my religion, through my parents, has taught me. I am relieved to see you said you condemn any “culture” which teaches and encourages violence against women, and not “any religion” [because I don’t believe Islam does teach it, while there is clearly a cultural problem].
I think sometimes the whole “Muslims hate women” movement goes too far. Neither the BBC, or any other media outlet, ever points out that while in Islam, the wife of the Prophet Mohammad, peace be upon him, was a business woman, in her own right, 1400 years ago, in other cultures, women have, until very recently, been unable to own property – ownership transferring automatically to their husbands upon marriage, and also been unable to vote.
Now I know that things are far worse than this today in many Muslim countries. The leadership and society in may of these countries is evil, criminal, and I certainly would not want to live there. But the point I make above is that there is no religious reason for this. The Prophet Mohammad showed us this hundreds of years ago, but jackals today ignore all that, to save their “honour”.
To grant 18:14, I’ll just say that I agree that problems are not just in a tiny minority. They are a minority, but are still so great as to be alarming. But in my view, this is a cultural problem – people with very peculiar, backward, nonsensical views and ideas. I, and others, look to the same religious teachings for guidance, and find no justification for barbaric treatment towards women.
And I agree that the BBC is anti-Christian values – and they should not be. I think it is disgraceful the way the BBC deals with religious affairs in general, and Christianity in particularly.
I’ll conclude by summarising my point: Muslims are not all evil scary people. Those that kill for honour should be locked up, and so should others that kill for honour, or for any other reason.
I’ll end by saying that I hope I’ll be welcome to post messages here again. I am a conservative, and do find that the BBC is biased against conservative ideas, and in so thinking, I suspect I have something in common with many of you.
Oh yes, and Martin 17:02, if the BBC series you mention is the one I am thinking of, it was about “arranged” marriages, and not “forced” marriages! It involved “white” English Christian people being “set-up” by their families. The family and friends of the single people, lets say, a woman, went out and found some single men, and it was for the woman to choose, on the basis of information provided by her friends and family, from a group of 3 or 4 men, which one she wanted to meet. They then had a big party, where the two single people and both their families met. I believe one of more couples that had been “set-up” went on to form and continue relationships, while others didn’t. Nobody was forced to do anything they didn’t want to.
mikewineliberal | 25.11.08 – 9:33 pm
All you’ve done there is copy bits of Rob’s comment. Whether or not I’m Okay with it is another matter.
I asked you to explain something, but you’ve just done as you usually do, snipe.
What you haven’t done is explain yourself. You only snipe and insinuate. Rob gave a full explanation as to why he made the comment you misread.
Where’s your full explanation of what you find disgusting? Are you too lazy to back up your argument? Tell us why you are disgusted. Tell us why you’re shocked.
Should we assume you know a lot about Islam? Or not?
All the bits you’ve selected are statements that you may not like, that you may disagree with, but in what way are they shocking or disgusting? Answer please, preferably not just with another snidey question.
You’re wasting your time with the troll, Sue.
Sue, your efforts are wasted on mikewhineliberal. As he has already proved by his extensive quoting of Rob Santiago’s original excellent posting, mikey boy takes exception to any criticism of his beloved Islam.
“I see islam as a form of fascism ”
mikewineliberal | 25.11.08 – 9:33 pm |
“You’re ok with this?”
Mikey, stop trying to score Brownie points by trolling this site with your fake outrage. Who exactly are you trying to impress? Your paymasters at the BBC perhaps?
I think Mike suffers from the same myopia and middle class guilt that is endemic of the BBC. He seems to think that by coming up here and rattling his ‘multi-culti’ saber at us he will be somehow appeasing this omnipresent socialism that looks down upon him and other lefties with an all knowing smile and a wink.
The solution of all wet lefties to murderous or criminal agression is to have a psyco-therapeutic pow-wow with them and then point the finger of blame at anyone with more priviledge than the aggressor. Unless it’s them of course.
Only if Islam follows through with it’s desired annihilation of western values will the “Is Islam a form of fascism?” question be answered. And by then it will be too late and spineless pricks like you will be crouched on a grass mat wiping your arse with your left hand pointing everyone to the nearest mosque.
You may believe Islam should be treated like a burning orphanage, many of us don’t and your outrage up here comes across as fake and staged.
no fan of the bbc
Good points well made –people of all religions disgrace themselves –I should know –bastard Catholics
Hey, Mikewineliberal… any chance of doing an Alan Colmes?
Islam = violent death cult, devout Muslims = brainwashed. It’s pretty easy if you look at the facts.
I’m with Tom Tancredo, by the way. The next time there’s a mass killing that involves muslim terrorists nuke Mecca.
“The next time there’s a mass killing that involves muslim terrorists nuke Mecca.”
mikewhineliberal is going to wet himself with panic when he reads this tomorrow morning – as he gets up to feed his newts.
“No fan of the BBC”, your prophet’s first wife may have been a “business woman in her own right” but his favourite wife Aisha was a six-year old girl (marriage consummated when she was nine). Your prophet also killed women, for example the poet Asma bint Marwan who dared to compose a poem criticising him. It is not hard to see a pattern of behaviour here both towards women in general and towards those who have the temerity to cast a critical eye on the “religion of peace”.
no fan of the bbc:
Your religion is barbaric. It is cultist. It is utter twisted, nonsense.
Have I offended you? Yup. The only thing your religion is good for.
no fan of the bbc:
Here’s your beloved religion of peace in it’s full Looney Toon glory. I take it they are worshipping a totally different version of the Koran to you? The one published by Tex Avery perhaps?
“A muslim wife recruited a rap band to kill her devout husband because he forced her to wear a burkha, a jury heard yesterday. Faria Khan claimed her husband became violent when she failed to conform to his strict beliefs, which included completely covering her face whenever she wished to go out.
Khan, 28, is alleged to have hired four members of the group Dem Boyz to murder her husband Nawajid for just £200. The gang, wielding axes and knives, beat Mr Khan, 31, when he arrived for work as a chef at a takeaway restaurant in Sheffield.
As the father of two tried to stagger away, it is claimed that his wife ploughed into him in her 4×4 Vauxhall Frontera. Then, as he lay helpless in the road, she drove over his body, crushing him beneath the wheels. One witness claimed she was laughing “like a woman possessed”.
Khan and her friend Neelam Kauser, 18, along with band members Brian Yorachi, 19, Kanu Kangi, 20, Abdiquador Mohammed, 18, and Daniel Moore, 22, all deny murder and conspiracy to commit grievous bodily harm.
Khan, who was born in Pakistan but grew up in South Yorkshire, told Sheffield Crown Court she had never set eyes on her husband before her parents organised an arranged marriage in December 1999. The couple lived for a while in Pakistan, where Mr Khan would regularly beat her because he disliked the way she talked and because she was “not a proper Muslim”. She told her murder trial: “Husbands can do whatever they want in Pakistan.”
The couple, who had two children, moved to Sheffield in 2000 but fierce rows erupted soon afterwards when Khan refused his demands that she wear the burkha. She said: “He wanted me fully covered from head to foot. When I came here he told me to wear that. I said I would do it in Pakistan but I wasn’t going to do it here.”
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/72326/Wife-paid-for-her-Muslim-husband-to-be-killed-after-he-made-her-wear-burkha-
You’re ok with this?
mikewineliberal | 25.11.08 – 9:33 pm
Referring back to your post, Mike Whine Liberal – Get a little more sophisticated with your posts. You are drab to the max.