Please use this thread for comments about the BBC’s current programming and activities. This post will remain at or near the top of the blog – scroll down for new topic-specific posts. N.B. This is not an invitation for general off-topic comments, rants or chit-chat. Thoughtful comments are encouraged. Comments may also be moderated. Any suggestions for stories that you might like covered would be appreciated! It’s your space, use it wisely.
General BBC-related comment thread!
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FANTASTIC headline for this story about gay doctors….
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7872511.stm
‘It’s much easier to be open now’!!!!!!
Din’t Frankie have some advice? ‘Relax’, wasn’t it?
Gaza rocket lands in southern Israel
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE5170AQ20090208
Rocket fired on Israeli City
http://www.newsonair.com/news.asp?cat=international&id=IN6931
Let’s count the hours before the BBC report this. And what’s the betting it be something along the lines of:
“Gazan’s fear Israeli retaliation”
Omega Man
Radio 4 this morning had an extendedpiece with Ed Stourton out in Israel interviewing a UK Jew who had gone to settle there. At one point she said that she had disagreements with her UK Jewish friends about the recent Gaza trouble. She said “It is because we get different information about what is happening”.
Like – she gets the truth, lives it – her friends back in the UK get the BBC lies.
Just watched the news segment at the end of the Andrew Marr show not a mention of Jaqui Smith.
Does anybody have a full list of Beeboids with a conection to the labour party?
I listened to radio 4 and the paper review didnt include the mail story about the crooked hoe secretary, hmmmm what a surprise?
Golliwoggate got a whole section and a ANL activist and former popstar dummy got a prime spot, barely able to speak English he was allowed to spout his ‘rite on wisdom’ of course.
But the paper review was stunning in its selective blindness, the Mail was looked at but the sleaze of Smith on the front page must have vanished because the story they chose for the mail was miles past the headline story, hmmmmm I wonder why?
news 24 at 11am no mention of our Jaqui.
David Preiser (USA):
GCooper | 07.02.09 – 12:55 pm |
Thanks for the link to Heffer’s article. He puts me to shame by saying it better in two sentences than I have in all my comments combined.
‘It was unwise of Carol Thatcher to compare a black person with a golliwog: first and foremost it contravenes good manners.’David Preiser (USA) | 07.02.09 – 4:19 pm |
David – I think many of the people defending the right to say ‘golliwog’ have been prompted to take this position after being continually told we must have ‘black history’ taught in primary schools, we must have ‘black history week’ on the BBC, we must have a ‘black policeman’s organisation in the police’, we must pay compensation to black people for slavery’ etc etc all the effing time, and then you get a leaflet from the council saying ‘open day for jobs – for the ethnic comminities’ etc etc. You get so sick of it that in the end some people use the golliwog to let off steam at being preached at continuously at how we must never ‘dis’ the blacks. Even when they are far over-represented in the prison population, we still hear someone tell us that is because they are discriminated against during stop and search. What?
In the face of all this hectoring to respect the blacks some people are having a slight smile over golliwogs.
We have a patriotic black newsreader who speaks far superior English than most white newsreaders called Trevor McDonald, and it is a pleasure to hear him read the news. He also made a programme favourable towards the royal family. I would never use the word golliwog in relation to him, as I genuinely respect him, and as you say, it would be bad manners.
In Life on Mars – did you notice how the only truly virtuous character, good natured, a seeker of truth and good, in fact completely without faults, despite racist provocation, was the black character?
Even reasonable black people should agree with me that they get over the top positive coverage.
The BBC have put up a robust defence of the crooked home secretary Smith, third story of course with the denial and defence only being allowed, the story is one of Smith is innocent of all charges of corruption, no story here, nithing to see here and move along and the BBC obviously take her word for it, no wonder they had a delay in the story, they were on the phone with nulabour spin control working out how to defend Smith and play down the accusations!
The BBC, in its news priorities, has this story on Switzerland and immigration (although BBC avoids ‘i’ word):
“Swiss votes on EU worker rights”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7877218.stm
BUT, the BBC does NOT report this story about Britain and immigration:
‘Telegraph’ –
“Rise in illegal immigrants entering Britain”
[Extract]:
“More than 3,300 were picked up in just an eight month period in 2008, compared with only 1,400 in an entire 12-month period in 2006/07.
“Critics said the sharp rise pointed to a major weakness with Britain’s border controls and warned that hi-tech lorry searches introduced at French ports seven years ago may have been undermined by bureaucracy and money-saving initiatives.
“Any illegal immigrant who makes it on to British soil can claim asylum, but those detected before they enter the country — for example, at the French ports — can be refused entry.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/4549923/Rise-in-illegal-immigrants-entering-Britain.html
Illegal immigration into Britain is apparently not an issue for the BBC.
Lots of people here seem to suggest in their comments that the BBC have acted against Carol Thatcher because she ‘used’ the word golliwog.
I don’t think that is the case. According to Adrian Chiles in yesterday’s Sun, she referred to someone as a golliwog.
That is surely different.
It’s not as rude as calling someone a golliwog to their face. But it is still a breach of decorum. Though not a sacking offence IMHO.
Will the BBC report this?:
“Birmingham is home to Al Qaeda linked terror suspects”
[Extract]:
“THREE members of a suspected terror cell with links to Al Qaida are on the run in the Midlands.
“The alleged jihadists, who all have joint Libyan/British citizenship, have been placed on Interpol’s Most Wanted list over claims they funded terror plots for Osama Bin Laden.
“The international police force has made the men subject to a Red Notice • the highest level of arrest warrant • and have traced them to areas in and around Birmingham.
“Abd’rabbah Ghuma, 51, Abdulbaqi Mohammed Khaled, 51, and Mohammed Benhammedi, 42, also appear on a United Nation’s list of Al Qaida and Taliban associates.”
http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news/2009/02/08/birmingham-is-home-to-al-qaida-linked-terror-suspects-66331-22879232/
Any chance of a New General comments thread please.
Tom:
Lots of people here seem to suggest in their comments that the BBC have acted against Carol Thatcher because she ‘used’ the word golliwog.
Tom:
… According to Adrian Chiles in yesterday’s Sun, she referred to someone as a golliwog.
…
It’s not as rude as calling someone a golliwog to their face. But it is still a breach of decorum. Though not a sacking offence IMHO.
Tom | 08.02.09 – 12:50 pm |
————————–
According to the account given by the snitchy hypocrite Chiles, she also referred to someone / people as frog /s or froggy/ies. Nice, eh?
Was ol’ Snitchy SHOCKED and OUTRAGED at that?
Or is he only outraged to order? You know, because it has been decreed and indoctrinated at the B’oid Farm that one must(because THEY are not like us, must treat them as SPESHULL…)
Gollywog-calling and snitchy purple OUTRAGE look like two sides of the same coin.
Does anybody have a full list of Beeboids with a conection to the labour party?
Ron Todd | 08.02.09 – 10:05 am | #
This is one I compiled for my own website a little while ago.
It’s by no means comprehensive – and a bit out of date now – but it gives the broad picture:-
Here’s an abbreviated list of known Labour supporters and the postions they’ve occupied at the BBC since the the early 90’s:-
Chairman Gavin Davies (later Labour adviser)
Chairman Sir Michael Lyons (previously Labour council chief)
Director General John Birt (later Labour adviser)
Director General Greg Dyke (previously Labour donor and candidate)
C.O.O Caroline Thomson (previously Roy Jenkin’s aide)
Head of Political Research Bill Bush (later Labour spin doctor)
Deputy Head of ditto Catherine Rimmer (later Labour spin doctor)
Director of Strategy Ed Richards (later Labour spin doctor)
Head of Corporate Planning James Purnell (now Labour Minister)
Head of Northern Ireland News Tom Kelly (later Labour spin doctor)
Scottish News Editor Tim Luckhurst (previously lLabour spin doctor)
Political News Editor Joy Johnson (later Labour spin doctor)
Political Editor Andrew Marr (student Labour organiser)
Home News Editor Celia Barlow (now Labour MP)
Head of European Affairs Chris Bryant (now Labour MP)
Newsnight Producer Phil Woolas (now Labour Minister)
Foreign Correspondent Martin Sixsmith (later Labour spin doctor)
Current Affairs Reporter Ben Bradshaw (now Labour Minister)
Current Affairs Reporter Lance Price (later Labour spin doctor)
“Question Time” Editor Gill Penlington (previously Labour researcher)
Many of them actually worked for the Labour party before, after and even during their BBC employment.
Check out the blog for the detailed history and CV’s.
On BBC ‘Middle East’ web News page -an anti-British comment from an Iranian has been prominently posted for days, and remains there, under a large quote in the form of an unchallenged HYS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/default.stm
Pro-Ahmadinejad influences at work in the BBC’s HYS?
It’s what the BBC expect licencepayers to accept without demur.
Thou Shalt not Dis the blacks | 08.02.09 – 11:35 am |
I think many of the people defending the right to say ‘golliwog’ have been prompted to take this position after being continually told we must have ‘black history’ taught in primary schools, we must have ‘black history week’ on the BBC, we must have a ‘black policeman’s organisation in the police’, we must pay compensation to black people for slavery’ etc etc all the effing time, and then you get a leaflet from the council saying ‘open day for jobs – for the ethnic comminities’ etc etc. You get so sick of it that in the end some people use the golliwog to let off steam at being preached at continuously at how we must never ‘dis’ the blacks. Even when they are far over-represented in the prison population, we still hear someone tell us that is because they are discriminated against during stop and search. What?
I’m well aware of this. That’s why I keep saying things like “societal growing pains”. I don’t like PC Thought Police any more than anyone else. But trying to argue that the golliwog has no racialist baggage isn’t doing anybody any favors. I agree it would be nice if everyone could accept that some people can think it’s cute without being called racist.
As I’ve been saying, there’s a difference between saying somebody “looks like” a golliwog, and saying, “oh, that golliwog”. Until we knew what was actually said, there was no way to know how much credit to give Carol Thatcher. It was just as Jay Hunt said. Thatcher said “that golliwog”.
In the face of all this hectoring to respect the blacks some people are having a slight smile over golliwogs.
I get it. I just don’t think it’s helpful.
We have a patriotic black newsreader who speaks far superior English than most white newsreaders called Trevor McDonald, and it is a pleasure to hear him read the news. He also made a programme favourable towards the royal family. I would never use the word golliwog in relation to him, as I genuinely respect him, and as you say, it would be bad manners.
Aren’t you admitting here that the term is disrespectful? And anyway, why would you say it about a tennis player? Especially when the guy doesn’t have particularly dark skin, or big hair? You can’t be saying that it’s okay to call some athlete a golliwog because you don’t respect him. That’s not helping your case at all.
If the tennis player in question bore the slightest resemblance to a golliwog, there would be at least something to it. In reality, Thatcher was using the “G” word as a euphemism for all black people, not just those who resemble one. There’s no way that can be excused as anything other than bad manners.
In Life on Mars – did you notice how the only truly virtuous character, good natured, a seeker of truth and good, in fact completely without faults, despite racist provocation, was the black character?
I liked that show. Yes, the “aren’t we so much better now because of Liberals” attitude was a little annoying at times, but it was still fun. I groaned along with everyone else when someone or other was musing about a future where a woman is elected Prime Minister, and Sam said something along the lines of, “Be careful what you wish for.” The ever-present BBC Narrative of “Oh, but we remember how horrible it was during the Thatcher years”. In fact, that was what made me decide not to bother with the sequel.
Even reasonable black people should agree with me that they get over the top positive coverage.
I agree with you, too. But it turns out that this is the wrong battle to pick. In this case, it seems that Thatcher wasn’t being cute; she was being insensitive. I don’t see any excuse for using the term golliwog as a catch-all phrase for blacks. I’m sorry, I just don’t. However, as I keep saying, I don’t think she should have been fired for it, and especially not for the reason Jay Hunt gave.
In my view the real battle to pick with the BBC here is the intellectually fascist way in which – going by Jay Hunt’s words – Thatcher was required to apologize. A case should also be made against Chiles and Brand and whoever else felt that they needed to report their colleague to the Thought Police rather than be grown-ups and straighten the woman out themselves. I bet they never reported anyone for faking a phone-in competition. That’s what really stinks.
John Reith spins in his grave | Homepage | 08.02.09 – 4:52 pm |
You forgot BBC business editor Robert Peston: Gordon Brown’s biographer, and champion of his economic policies for social justice.
John Reith spins in his grave:
Thanks for that just as bad as I expected. Isn’t Andrew Marr married to a labour party boss?
And we’ve just heard about Jacqui Smith’s sister
David – I agree with all your points above, and I know you have carefully phrased your comments on this matter over the past few days on the other blogs below.
…except I am not sure about “societal growing pains”.
We will always have racial tensions as group loyalty is so srongly embedded in human nature. Ironically, the white westerners, who get most criticism in this respect, are in fact the most accommodating towards other racial groups. Just to give one example: the Pakistani community in Britain is very strict about preventing their children from mixing with children from another race or religion. They far exceed the BNP in terms of their view that races should be separate.
As for ‘golliwogs’ – yes it is disrespectful as you say, and impolite, as you quote above. I agree with these points. As you say, it has deliberately been blown out of proportion by the BBC. We can all guess at their motives. On the scale of offence the word ‘golliwog’ is 1 out of 10, or less, and in some people’s eyes, 0 out of 10. For the sake of comparison, the ‘n’ word for blacks is about 9 out of 10 on the scale.
I think white people use the term ‘golliwog’ under the following circumstances:
1) They genuinely have not realised that a golliwog is a caricature of a black person, and they genuinely feel affectionate towards their golliwog doll that they had as a child, or the golliwogs on Robertson’s marmalade. In a country of millions, there is not just one negative interpretation of a word, and they have a positive interpretation of it.
2) They realise that a golliwog is a caricature of a black person, but they still think it is just a harmless cartoon and blacks should learn not to be so sensitive. Grow up a bit. Learn to laugh and get the chip off your shoulder, they say. Everyone else has to take a bit of stick – so why not you? Every white upper class person on TV is portrayed as a twit or a villain and they are not moaning about it all the time. In Inspector Morse all the villains were white and well educated middle aged and middle class or upper class people committing murders all over the place, but these categories are not crying about it.
3) Normally polite people who know ‘golliwog’ is disrespectful are being rude to blacks in response to provocation from the PC brigade, who run the BBC amongst other things. Provocation meaning blacks getting special treatment and no-one is allowed to say anything.
Some PC people enjoy watching with satisfaction the tensions they have stirred up by their provocation.
4) Normally polite people who have personal experiences with blacks which has lead to them to be prejudiced against them as a group, eg experiencing gangs of aggressive blacks in school. They know that because a certain percentage are lazy or criminal it does not follow that 100% are, but they still experience negative feelings towards them due to the way the brain responds to traumatic experiences. If a man with big boots kicks a cat, that cat will always fear men in big boots.
Interestingly on BBC Radio 2’s Jeremy Vine show last week there was a topic on whether the media were partly to blame for the recession. As the top story there was an online comments section available on the website too.
What with Robert Peston taking a fair amount of flack for his antics over the last few months (and having to go before parliament the same week to face a questions on Northern Rock amoungst other things), I was not at all surprised to see that the editors did not publish ANY comments at all on the subject – never mind the one I left! It’s the only day last week when no comments appeared for an item on the Vine show. SURPRISE!!
As always any negative views toward the beeb are not published if they can’t be ‘spinned’ with a PC response/lie.
Susan Franklin
You can add “Gordon Chubby Brown” to your list.
He hates being called chubby.
Thou Shalt not Dis the blacks | 09.02.09 – 11:13 am |
Having to navigate the minefield of points you raise is basically what I’m referring to as “societal growing pains”.
To continue the analogy, different parts of the body mature at different rates, you know? It’s all part of the kind of growing up you’re talking about in #2, and society isn’t there just yet.
Both US and British society have some uncomfortable racial issues in the past. That’s not anybody’s fault now, and I’ve never been a believer in the “Sins of the father” deal. But that doesn’t mean one ought not to be a little sensitive to people whose own heritage has been on the receiving end. That’s part of societal growing pains.
If we’re to believe Adrian Chiles quoted her accurately, (and there doesn’t seem to be any reason not too at this point), Carol Thatcher’s comment would rate about a 1 or a 3 out of 10 for me. The higher score would be is she was referring to Tsongas, in which case she’s using the “G” word as a euphemism for all blacks. That pretty much kills the defense that it’s just a beloved icon with no racial baggage, as Tsongas looks nothing like one. Monfils does, I can’t deny that, so it only registers a little.
(I wouldn’t say that the French are deserving of that kind of respect, but it’s pretty revealing that “froggy” is part of acceptable vernacular at the BBC. Is “kraut” oaky? What about “Eyeties”? They know that one’s not so good, I guess. But I wonder what other ethnic slurs are cool in the green room?)
She obviously knew what she was saying, and knew how sensitive an issue it might be. That’s why I find it ridiculous for the BBC to claim that she denies understanding that. My ultimate focus has always been on the apology. That and the fact that Thatcher had to be reported and punished rather than being set right by her colleagues, given that the BBC will not go to the same lengths against someone who lies to children and steals money from the public until they’re called out in public.
David, I think most people will agree with you that the demands for confessions and different kinds of apologies from C.Thatcher are disgraceful and as you say it could have been sorted out without having to go on air.