I’ve been away all day and just back but have listened to the BBC at several times and the coverage of the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough football crowd disaster was omnipresent. I remember watching the story unfold – it was undeed a terrible event and I feel sorry for all those bereaved families BUT the relentless MOPERY emanating from Liverpool and the BBC’s slavish coverage of it was over the top. Over on A Tangled Web, one of my fellow writers, Mike Cunningham, also picked up on the scale of the BBC coverage. Wondered what you reckon?
96 TEARS.
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Response
Shep Smith Responds to Diss from CNN’s Susan Roesgen!
Liverpool is not known as the world capital of self pity for nothing.
I spent two miserable whole long years on Merseyside. Never again.
TPO | 15.04.09 – 11:43 pm |
Unfortunately for me I returned for 4 days in July 1981 and was involved in pitch battles with scouse scum during the Toxteth Riots. We worked out of Admiral Street Police Station on the edge of derelict ground which looked more like Fort Apache, The Bronx. On The last day we had to hold back the mob when Maggie Thatcher came to see what all the scum were bellyaching about.
Taylor, McPherson and Scarman have no real credibility and are just political appointees with instructions to bring back an outcome to keep the peasants happy.
I’ve no doubt that the Heysal behaviour had a similar role at Hillsborough.
glj The last time you were here on this subject you were running off at the mouth calling me a rascist bigot.
Well I don’t buy into your notion that they were all lovable scallys. I suggest you take yourself off and read Spike Island. You might learn something.
Oh and why weren’t all these people at work today?
archduke | 16.04.09 – 1:33 am | #
Well no, your opinions are not based on what happened, because, quite frankly, you clearly don’t know what happened. Your ignorance, not to mention your arrogance, is quite breathtaking.
If you did know the REAL truth you wouldn’t be making wild accusations of ticketless fans being inb some way to blame from the disaster.
As Lord Justice Taylor himself said…..”the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of tickletless fans in the crowd which built up”. Unless of course you know different?
So I ask AGAIN – your “opinions” are based on what exactly?
TPO | 16.04.09 – 1:53 am | #
bnp.org>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
@glj:
From the report:
Paragraph 54:
Leppings Lane and its environs comprise a
mixed shopping and residential area. Local residents saw groups of Liverpool supporters keen to find a public
house or off-licence. Many were asking for tickets or “spares”. There were a few touts selling them at inflated
prices. From an early stage, some of the fans were using private gardens and yards to urinate. As the morning
wore on, numbers increased. Requests for tickets and trespass to urinate also increased.
Paragraph 57:
Some 53 police had been deployed to operate outside the turnstiles and in the Leppings
d at random whether fans had tickets. Those who had not were advised to go away;nevertheless, many returned more than once.
Paragraph 64:
Superintendent Marshall was in
the midst of the turmoil. He extricated himself and stood on a parapet of the bridge to get a clear view. A
drunken fan tried to push him off: a beer can was thrown at a mounted officer. But these were isolated acts by
individuals; the menace came from the massive numbers single-mindedly determined to be in for the kick-off
with time running out.
bnp.org>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
glj | 16.04.09 – 2:13 am |
Pathetic. You have no answer.
Sorry, there were faults on both sides. Too many fans trying to get in late – but 1300 police who should have been able to control things. No-one was counting.
I have been penned into the visitor end of the Plough Lane Wimbledon ground, I lived in Wimbledon but chose to be at the red end that day. (One of my daughters was at Liverpool Medical School, getting the sharp edges rubbed off her, honing her humour)
The police hated all of us, pushed their horses against a quiet queue. I asked some of them to back away – with a fairly toffe-nosed accent – and got spat at by one of the mounted coppers.
………….
The faults was on both sides at Hillsborough.
JohnA | 16.04.09 – 3:23 am |
Read Spike Island. very informative about the realities of policing in Liverpool.
When the inner city riots kicked off in 1981 it was the first mobilisation of UK police forces under “Mutual-Aid”.
Going from a Home Counties force to Liverpool was an eye opener. It was the first time that I’d seen armoured police Land Rovers on the UK mainland.
It’s 8:30 pm here and must put little one to bed. Be back later.
TPO
I remember reading Spike Island many years ago.
Tough cookies though – the older generation was among the crews of the 800 ships setting out from the Pool that went down with all hands in the Battle of the Atlantic.
I actually thought the Beeb made less of the Hillsborough story than the other news channels. ITV devoted almost their whole 10 o’clock news to the subject. They went way over the top, it was like another Diana moment. As tragic as the disaster was people have really got to start moving on.
Although Hillsborough is a horrific incident, the Bradford disaster is the most horrific, and indeed has been greatly uninvestigated, far less than Hillsborough, to this day.
I recall vividly, at an otherwise rather unimpactful work fire training course, the sheer horror of watching the whole, 14 minute Fire Brigade video on Powerpoint, in its whole slow motion ghastly inevitability.
Any Bradford commemorations, if observed, are criminally under reported.
Are the beeb treating scousers like they are an ethnic minority that need to be made more equal than the rest of us?
it is a little known fact that the local Jobcentre was able to record 96 sign – offs that month.
Ill get my coat too..
i cant wait for the next time members of the religion of peace decide to blow up the public transport system in cock-nee land
maybe next time they can blow up more than 100 suvern ponce’s
wankers
People are dead, it’s a tragedy. But brother, how the city and politicians of Liverpool wallow in it.
And as for the wicked Sun coverage of the events, following this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heysel_Stadium_disaster
I can’t say I blame the Sun too much – especially if it’s true that some fans robbed the injured and dead.
And a lot of the ‘mourners’ will be dancing on Mrs. Thatcher’s grave when she goes, too.
Well I have heard lots of sides of the Hillsborough argument – but I have lots of friends in the Hillsborough area – they all say that hundreds of pissed up fans rushed out of the pubs 5 minutes before the match and pushed towards the gates – if you were a copper witnessing people being crushed against the wall with relentless hordes of drunks pushing – perhaps opening the gates would be the only option to relieve the pressure…
BATTERY CARS
And while I’m at it – its simply not possible to convert everyone to battery cars – THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH MATERIALS IN THE WORLD TO MAKE ALL THE BATTERIES – END OF STORY!
its a lie, an mirage…
@JohnA:
“The faults was on both sides at Hillsborough.”
I agree completely that faults existed in the response. The Police could have done better and the faults are there to be seen.
Without ticketless drunks shoving though, there would have been no problem to police. And the police didn’t wake up with the intention of causing a major tragedy, but many from Liverpool -did- wake up with the intention of going to an all-ticket affair whilst having no tickets, getting drunk and trying to shove their way in.
It’s a root cause thing. Blaming the handling of the root cause is just missing it.
I guess that 30,000 people attending a memorial service is news in itself but I could’ve done without all the blubbing from Des Lynam and John F’king Motson etc etc etc. There are enough people directly affected to do that without “help”.
Nobody challenged the “justice for the 96” crap by suggesting that spending more public money on witch hunt enquiries at this distance is a waste of time. Nobody had the balls to raise what 99% of the country thinks – that the police were abysmal but the cause of the tragedy was the animalistic behaviour of a large number of Liverpool fans. Nobody mentioned Heysel (hey what’s Heysel? not our fault…)
Even today Liverpool fans are the most unpleasantly chaotic in the country. Not as vile as West Ham, not as violent as Millwall or Leeds or Cardiff, not as loud as any number of other teams, but for sheer pointless drunkeness, complete disrespect for the local “civilian” area and unwillingness to follow simple authority designed for their safety they’re unique.
All the whole affair does is reinforce my sheer loathing for all things ‘football’.
I think you make a valid point, but can it be considered the type of bias that this site is dedicated to combating?
“Red Lepond:
Belsen was a well-run concentration camp until it was overwhelmed by inmates transferred from other parts of the Reich as the Allies encroached in the final months of war.”
“A well-run concentration camp”????, in the same sense, presumably, as the Black Hole of Calcutta was a “well-run” prison until overwhelmed by inmates as Robert Clive and the East India Company encroached.
Err, no. Anne Frank and her sister (their mother was left to die of starvation) were transferred to Belsen from Auschwitz in October 1944. They were forced to live in the open and then in what tent they could find for most of the winter of 1944-5, one of the coldest on record.
Belsen was “overwhelmed” by inmates not because of the encroaching Allies, it was in the path of the advancing Allied armies in the West, but because of the thousands that were moved on the infamous death marches to cover up the evidence of the extermination camps, like Auschwitz, in the East.
When Belsen was finally liberated the stores of the wardens and guards were found amply supplied amidst the spectacle of the thousands of emaciated dead and dying captives. No wonder Albert Pierrepoint achieved celebrity status in this country when he delivered final justice, far too humanely imo, to these monsters. It is one case where I find it impossible to argue against capital punishment.
I suggest you read a biography of Anne Frank to discover what conditions were like in this “well-run” concentration camp.
As far as Hillsborough ’20 goes I noticed with interest that every time the fatuous and absurd Andy Burnham mentioned “Gordon Brown” or “the government” he was greeted with a loud chorus of booing. The “Save Gordon” campaign doesn’t seem to be working on Merseyside and we may even see the Labour monopoly being broken there at the next election, albeit by a few Lib-Dems.
whatever – if there waa a tory government in power embroiled in email / smear scandal – this story would be by a long way a runner up.
Hippiepooter, you should know by now that this site has for ages been
1. Highlighting BBC Bias
2. Somewhere for likeminded people to let of steam about a wide range of topics, not always about the BBC.
3. Somewhere for Atlas to give us all a huge laugh.
I can remember the violence of some Liverpool supporters in matches I have attended, as well as seeing them attack and loot a pub in my home town an hour before a match against Liverpool. But I imagine that they are no worse than any other set of supporters from a big city. What happened at the Leppings Lane End would probably have happened with the majority of supporters from other clubs. If Liverpoool supporters are to blame, then so are all football supporters who have behaved in an selfish, uncaring, or even unruly and violent way. It is an indictment of football fans in general, as well as the attitude and leadership of the police back in those days.
My personal memory of the Leppings Lane end goes back to 15 years before the day of the disaster, to an FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough. I can still clearly remember the feeling of claustrophobia as we were channelled down the tunnel to reach the pens and the extreme crush in the half hour before the game, where at times my feet were not actually touching the ground and where you prayed that the crowd would not surge and that the barriers would not collapse. I also remember seeing men urinate where they stood as there was no chance to get out to the toilets. It was a highly unpleasant and frightening experience, and when I saw the reports of the disaster in 1989, I could easily see how the situation could have quickly become deadly. However, there were no barrier fences when I was there, which was a key factor on the day.
I think the reason why Hillsborough is commeorated more is because it is the Country’s largest loss of life at a football match. The nearest other death toll was Celtic-Rangers, IIRC which was around 60 deaths. Allied with the maudlin nature of Scousers and you get yesterdays events. Simples.
Apart from the BBC’s desire to spit on the Police (again) I don’t see how this is bias. The tradgedy happened 20 years ago and won’t get the same coverage next year as it didn’t last year.
There’s nothiong quite so blind as those who refuse to see. All the why’s and the where-for’s are contained within the Taylor report, yet rather than read it and be enlightened people prefer to hold on to their age-old prejudicies. Most of which will have come about (ironically) as a result of years of exposure to wider media bias. And peddle their contemtable lies.
As for Heysel – well that was a disaster where people were held accountable and people (yes Liverpool fans) served time in prison as a result of their actions. To this day nobody has been held accountable for the Hillsborough Disaster, the largest loss of life at a sports event in this country’s history. This despite Lord Taylors conclusions that;
“”265. The immediate cause of the gross overcrowding and hence the disaster was the failure, when gate C was
opened, to cut off access to the central pens which were already overfull.””
That gate was opened under orders from Supt Duckinfield, and it was his officers who should have cut off access to the pens.
and
“”278. It is fair to state that over many years the South Yorkshire Police have given excellent service to the
public. They have handled crowd problems sensitively and successfully at a large number of football games
including major matches, during strikes in the coal industry and the steel industry, and in other contexts.
Unfortunately, their policing on 15 April broke down in the ways already described and, although there were
other causes, the main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control.””
Nobody is claiming that the LFC supporters were without fault that day, but it has to be recognized that the immediate cause of the Hillsborough Disaster was loss of police control. 20 years on some people just don’t get it, and you wonder why the fans are angry?
I think the original point of DV’s post was – did the BBC go over the top in their coverage? As somebody else has pointed out, other news outlets covered the story in an equally intensive style, so that would suggest that No, the BBC reporting wasn’t over the top.
Glj: ‘Nobody is claiming that the LFC supporters were without fault that day, but it has to be recognized that the immediate cause of the Hillsborough Disaster was loss of police control. 20 years on some people just don’t get it, and you wonder why the fans are angry?”
‘Loss of police conrol’, eh? I suppose the idea of football ‘fans’ exhibiting some self-control is out of the question. It would make all our lives easier if these fans weren’t the feral savages that they are. The police wouldn’t ‘lose control’ if they weren’t forced to try and assert ‘control’ in the first place.
I wish I could find that statistic about more people going to museums every weekend than go to football matches.
Every politicion knows that Football has replaced religeon as the panacea of the masses. like Islam it must not be offended.
Football is tribal as are politics and religion.
Identify yourself with one of your potential voters tribes and their vote will follow.
Politics has reverted to the stone age, hence Tories= uncaring and bad Labour = caring and good
“All the whole affair does is reinforce my sheer loathing for all things ‘football’.”
That’s nice. Why can’t egg chasing or cricket fans pursue their own strange sporting preferences in the company of two men and a dog without slagging off more popular pursuits?
The upside of Hillsborough is that it resulted in some magnificent, safe and comfortable stadia which are competently policed and stewarded in which one can watch our glorious national game without getting crushed, hit by coins, rained on, pissed on or otherwise abused. Or alternatively one can watch lower league football standing up amidst crowds bigger than used to turn up for 1st division days in the dregs of the mid 80s. That’s what the focus of the rememberence broadcasts should be – not the fact that they haven’t found someone to burn at the stake for it yet.
Red Lepond:
‘Belsen was a well-run concentration camp’
Nothing like Gaza, then, as run by those eeeevil Jews.
The terrible events that occurred at Hillsborough were due to a variety of reasons, the most overlooked reason and one that had the biggest impact on the terrible loss of life was Hillsborough.
The stadium was falling apart, it had inadequate entrances, the supporters were forced like sheep into a narrow funnel which filtered them into pens which became death traps.
The worst thing about the terrible events were they could have been avoided, the FA had previous problems with late arrivals at this ground for FA Cup semi-finals, yet the FA, the Clubs (inc Supporters) and the Police failed to act.
Some of the comments posted on this site are beyond the pale, people died, that is not something that some posters should joke about.
Clearly, Liverpool fans contributed heavily to this disaster, but people would do well to remember that it was the innocent ticket holding fans who were crushed to death, not the drunk thugs.
An interesting link to the report by glj, for which thank you and something I would probably not have seen without this topic being aired here. I have spent a while reading through the build-up parts and it is interesting. There appears much grey between the black and white of “Liverpool” innocent, police or somebody guilty.
I spoke with a colleague this morning about this subject and he volunteered that he was at the other semi-final that day at Villa Park and INDEPENDANTLY of what happened at Hillsborough he decided that day never to again stand at a football match as from his experience there he could easily understand what had happened at Hillsborough.
The grounds at the time were poorly laid out and signed and fences had had to be erected (behaviour of the “fans” I recall). Normally at a ground 85%+ or so of fans are local who know where they are going, when to time their arrival, where they habiyually stand and when and where they depart from etc. such that while still densely packed processions in and out it just about worked.
In this case IMHO this was a disaster waiting to happen, perhaps if Forest had been at that end it probably wouldn’t have, but then as football “fan” behaviour had deteriorated to such an extent the physical separation of supporters had become a major consideration in policing which 10 or 15 years previously would have allowed a different allocation.
All in all a salutary lesson. If there is one aspect that I would love to know, but never will, is just how many ticketless Liverpool fans travelled, how many were in the crowd trying to find “a way” in at 2.45 and how many actually were in the ground at 3.10 having achieved their object.
Yes 96 people were killed but because it is Football related we must keep quite and not say anything? Football supporters take themselve too seriously. 3000 people are killed each year on the roads, we should have a day of remberance for them also.
d | 16.04.09 – 2:34 pm |
Yes 96 people were killed but because it is Football related we must keep quite and not say anything?
Yes, but not all in one vehicle!
It was a tragedy no matter who was to blame.
Thanks to all for the intelligent and interesting contributions.
I am sorry about any cruel or tasteless comments, but we shouldn’t be afraid to tackle any sacred cows – all points of view are welcome – unlike at the BBC.
I would argue that the coverage was excessive in the media as a whole – it was no worse or better on the BBC than on any of the other networks.
A newsworthy event yes, but one that perhaps got more prominence than it should 20 years on because of our modern day obsession with public displays of emotion.
I think the root of the feeling of injustice was that South Yorkshire Police operated in full cover up mode, Duckinfield was a gutless bastard who lied about what he did that day, and any evidence that people who were alive at 3.15, and might have been saved with proper medical help was disregarded. It’s easy to try and rationalise this by blaming it all on drunken scousers, but that’s not the story. The feelings of injustice have festered over the years because of this, which is why Gordon’s little bitch got such a rough ride at Anfield yesterday.
Clearly, if the fire brigade fail to fight a fire in a badly designed building competently, and people die as a result, that would be lamentable and should be subject to full review. However culpability for the deaths in the fire rest with the fire starter.
I contend that had there been no excess crowd pressure, no one would have died. I am sorry that people died but I cannot understand calls for ‘justice’ that specifically excludes an examination of the causal factor
The BBC was no different to other TV channels and popular newspapers in its Hillsborough coverage, so demomstrating yet again that the BBC offers nothing remotely unique despite its unique way of funding it is so keen to tell us about and viciously defend.
All the TV tax does is to enable the provision of more TV tat and downmarket news than would otherwise be available.
I feel desperately sorry for al the deaths at Hillsborough but the calls for justice is pretty lame when no person was ever convicted of the killings in Hysel. Does any of the Liverpool who was at Hysel in 1985 feel any remorse for the deaths of the 39 people in the crush at that stadium all caused by the direct thuggish action of Liverpool fans? Do they ever have a memorial or have two minutes silence for those killed by the actions of Liverpool supporters, or is this worth ever case of football violence wiped from the Liverpudlian memory because they were the perpetrators not the victims? Does Liverpool FC remember the 5-year ban on English teams because of their fans behaviour?
I’ll have a double standard all round please.
Is it fair for you to focus on the BBC coverage and disregard the fact that all the media was devoting lots of time to this story? As many people here have said, the BBC take on the 20 year anniversary was no different from its rivals.
Rob | 16.04.09 – 3:36 pm |
I have seen many Duckenfields in my time. Earmarked on recruitment, extended training, specially selected tutor constable, then instead of going out on their own are shuffled off on a series of attachments in control rooms, CID, traffic dept. et al. After two years service the promotion exam and the next minute they are sergeants employed as staff officers to an ACC. After one year off to Bramshill staff college then back to force as an inspector employed as staff officer to the chief constable. Thereafter the rise up the greasy pole is rapid, without ever having done real policing on the ground.
But lets suppose Duckenfield did not order the gates at the turnstiles to be opened. What would have happened then.
Despite the protestations of some, the evidence is that a large number of ticketless drunken fans were present. Would people have been crushed to death at the turnstiles? Would he then be blamed by the self same people bleating that the gates should have been opened?
It seems that people, and not just Duckenfield, are no longer responsible for their actions.
On another thread Cheeta has provided an interesting link into what it’s like to police a crowd bent on causing violence and mayhem.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/4500737446997169659/#460870
Google ‘Black Hole Calcutta myth’ and you’ll wish you hadn’t drawn the analogy.
Yes, these were the final few months I was speaking of.
Auschwitz and other camps to the East were evacuated because of the Soviet, i.e., Allied, encroachment.
So, again, we’re in fundamental agreement over the facts.
I’ve never seen any actual documentation on the levels of food stores, but many of the guards who were present at Belsen at the time of liberation had only recently arrived themselves. Besides, sickness and not hunger was the major killer in the final analysis. Indeed, when the British soldiers compassionately but unwisely tried to feed up the survivors suffering from dysentry many perished.
The pertinent question is whether the German camp authorities tried to maintain conditions in the camp as long as humanly possible. The answer to this appears to be yes.
Hmmm, I didn’t realise that Allan’s quoted remarks would disappear (can’t we get some decent site software?) but I’m sure he’ll be able to fill in the blanks.
Biased BBC is Biased! | 16.04.09 – 4:36 pm |
Then perhaps you could help me. Did the BBC edit and splice their report to show the crowd applauding when Burnham mentioned Brown’s name.
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8000635.stm
I was led to believe that they booed.
TPO
_____________
thats funny cos I watched in on BBC news, again later in the evening, and they mentioned the booing. So i don’t know what you think they are hiding. care to help me on that.
Or maybe you think that the few tits who booed should be the focus of the whole story rather than the thousands who didnt boo and were respectful. would the BBC be called sensationalist if they focused on the boos and nothing else? interesting, id love to hear your comments.
Belsen was a well-run concentration camp until it was overwhelmed by inmates transferred from other parts of the Reich as the Allies encroached in the final months of war.
Red Lepond | 15.04.09 – 11:18 pm |
If I’m right by what you’re saying, it was the fault of the Allies?
Your whole understanding of the Nazi concentration camp system seems bizarre. Did you use the word “humane” in connection with BB?