I’ve been away all day and just back but have listened to the BBC at several times and the coverage of the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough football crowd disaster was omnipresent. I remember watching the story unfold – it was undeed a terrible event and I feel sorry for all those bereaved families BUT the relentless MOPERY emanating from Liverpool and the BBC’s slavish coverage of it was over the top. Over on A Tangled Web, one of my fellow writers, Mike Cunningham, also picked up on the scale of the BBC coverage. Wondered what you reckon?
96 TEARS.
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Also surprised thet still have the ability to walk. Cowards preventing closure. Thats the real wound that will never heal, it seems to a mere Cockney observer.
This thread has performed a valuable service, in educating readers into some of the unspoken nuances of the events of that day, which is basically a form of manslaughter.
Again I apologise for my crass and inexcusable posting upthread.
Simon.
spot on piggy.
another thing footie fans need to ask is – who the hell caused a situation where fencing HAD to be erected.
you dont see that in baseball or american football grounds.
Bobby Sands’ knife and fork | 16.04.09 – 10:07 pm
fair enough. i understand.
i guess i get mad when discussing this stuff as i have relations in Liverpool and i remember seeing that awful Daily Mirror photo wondering if one of my cousins was in that crowd.
(thankfully he wasnt..)
i guess yer right – the tragedy brings out a lot of raw emotions.
Piggy.. its unspoken of round here.. you do not DARE mention that there maybe two sides to the argument and not just the coppers fault…
i honestly think it has become one of those collective so called ‘trauma’ situations were people have, sadly, genuinely convinced themselves that they are not to blame.. as i hinted at in first thread, its a minority who shout loudest.. media lap it up, love it..
but underneath, people know the real truth, but as i said, irrespective of certain things, suitable and appropriatly well trained crowd control by the coppers could also have prevented a loss of life…
‘justice’ may be a bitter pill for some people to swallow…
its good therapy talking about this – just remembered why i havent followed footie since the 80s and why footie games on the telly turn my stomach.
its was Hillsborough.
was a big a footie fan before that. boycotted the game ever since.
mister ed, same here..used to go all the time (Everton actually)
i havent mentioned this up to now, but my cousin was there and he was part of the crush.. 3 oclock he was waiting to watch a football game, 10 mins later he had a crushed, dead body at his side, he was lucky, he managed to find wriggle free…
he has never been same since..
Bobby Sands’ knife and fork | 17.04.09 – 12:45 am
that liverpool crowd heckling that labour minister is a good example of collective denial.
( and he didnt deserve it – bloke is from Liverpool himself. Everton fan. )
he didnt, Ed, but as i sadi, its a collective denial which runs thru… a so called ‘authority’ fugure is heckeld.. id have prefered to listen to what he had to say, then judge.. but ‘they’ dont want to hear.. they dont even listen, never mind hear… sad
Bobby Sands’ knife and fork | 17.04.09 – 12:51 am
holy mother of god… i bet he and you are always thinking “what if he was 3 or 4 feet to the left or right..” would have died..
woah.. glad to hear he survived. but god damn.. must be tough to live with it.
words fail me.
Ed, as i said, its a hard one.. people want to blame someone, something.. its easy to look for something external… harder to look inwards..
as i said in a few posts up.. mate lost his 2 brothers, cousin had that image which will never leave him.. it was wrong what happened.. who is to blame is a different story…
i guess seeking blame is part of being human. folks want to find closure on their relatives deaths. when in reality there is no reason – it was mindless brain dead footie fans wanting to get into the game.
and i guess thats hard to deal with.
the sheer senselessness of the loss.
folks can deal with heroic Victoria Cross deaths – but we cant deal with the mindless stuff. like going to watch a footie match and being crushed to death by other fans.
In a way its like what we Yids used to be accused of in the “good old days” lol, basically that of not giving our guilty ones up to “Christian justice” but the community punished them quite comprehensively..My lot came and lived in the East End in the 1880s, and Jewish “frontier justice” (in Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, etc) was very real.
we could do with a bit more Yids.
getting sick and tired of the ninja taliban burkas in London.
Alan D:
Superb rebuttal of Red Leopards grotesque arguments upthread B.T.W.
Simon
Mister Ed:
Dont start me off 🙂
Allan D, thanks for making my point about the Black Hole of Calcutta. If you learnt something from it, your misguided efforts on this thread have not been in vain.
I’m not really bothered abouit whether the liberation of Belsen was Richard Dimbleby’s worst day of his life or not; those were the days when the BBC unquestioningly propagated British military propaganda.
Returning to the pertinent issue: nothing you’ve posted contradicts that conditions at Belsen in the last months of the war were the direct consequences of overcrowding and the general breakdown within the country.
The main reason for evacuating the camps had nothing to do with hiding any extermination policies; it had to do with public protection.
As stated, the general health or otherwise of the remaining camp staff doesn’t reflect on the provision of supplies for the camp inmates.
I would like to rent a couple houses in the places where MY fucking family was born (all the nests of Al Quida, “Respect” etc,) and reclaim the area in the name of authentic English Judeo- Christian “multiculturalism”
Would call ourselves Settlers Reclaim. By a couple run down/pissed on churches, reconsecrate one church and one Synagogue. Then let there be a riot. Sort of 21st century cable street. Sod em.
Red Lepond:
You are an intelligent and not too screwed up bloke.
I dont understand why you use such extreme moral relatevism on such indefensible acts. obviously you have read Fergusons “War of the World” and Tooze. It was such an EVIL system. Sorry I believe in good and evil.
relativism
“I’m not really bothered abouit whether the liberation of Belsen was Richard Dimbleby’s worst day of his life or not; those were the days when the BBC unquestioningly propagated British military propaganda.”
As opposed to that of the thankfully-defunct Thousand-Year Reich which you propagate. I prefer British military propaganda. It at least has the ring of truth about it unlike the disgusting filth you peddle. Now go and crawl back underneath whatever rock you came from. This correspondence is now closed.
It would be entirely with police cooperation and with the aim of reaching out to the moslems too. It would be up to them if they met it with tolerence, or hate. Have we sunk so low that permission to set up such religious houses would be REFUSED by various “authorities?”
That would be a litmus test as to the stae of England, and her heritage, verses a grotesque racist P.C.
Simon
What a charming bunch of people on here tonight.
On the existence of evil, I make no judgement. On matters of fact, I must take a stand.
Here are sections of a letter sent by Josef ‘The Beast of Belsen’ Kramer to SS-Bigwig Gruppenführer Glücks at the beginning of March 1945:
“The reception of further consignments is impossible, not only from the point of view of accommodation due to lack of space, but particularly on account of the feeding question. When S.S. Stabsarztführer Lolling inspected the camp at the end of January it was decided that an occupation of the camp by over 35,000 detainees must be considered too great. In the meantime this number has been exceeded by 7,000 and a further 6,200 are at this time on their way. The consequence of this is that all barracks are overcrowded by at least 30 per cent. […]In addition to this question a spotted fever and typhus epidemic has now begun, which increases in extent every day. The daily mortality rate, which was still in the region of 60-70 at the beginning of February, has in the meantime attained a daily average of 250-300 and will still further increase in view of the conditions which at present prevail. […]
When I took over the camp, winter supplies for 1,500 internees had been indented for; some had been received, but the greater part had not been delivered. This failure was due not only to difficulties of transport but also to the fact that practically nothing is available in this area and all must be brought from outside the area. The supplies which were available here were calculated to last till February 20; by the greatest economy it has been possible to have still, at the present time, potato supplies for eight days and turnips for six days. Fresh negotiations with the representative of the local peasants’ combine with regard to further supplies have been started. The same situation prevails with regard to the supply of bread – apart from the supply by Training Area Bergen we received daily one load from a bread factory in Hanover. For the last four days there has been no delivery from Hanover owing to interrupted communications, and I shall be compelled, if this state of affairs prevails till the end of the week, to fetch bread also by means of lorry from Hanover. The lorries allotted to the local unit are in no way adequate for this work and I am compelled to ask for at least three to four lorries and five to six trailers. […]
The supply question must, without fail, be cleared up in the next few days. I ask you, Gruppenführer, for an allocation of transport. The collection of food will be dealt with from here. Further, I need badly an additional supply of boilers. All boilers belonging to the camp are in use day and night. We shall be in great difficulties if one of these boilers fails. There is a field kitchen here with 30 boilers of 300 litres capacity which were placed at the disposal of the S.S. by the D.A.F. […]
When you interviewed me on December 1, 1944, at Oranienburg, you told me that Bergen-Belsen was to serve as a sick camp for all concentration camps in North Germany. The number of sick has greatly increased, particularly on account of the transports of detainees, which have arrived from the East in recent times – these transports have sometimes spent eight to fourteen days in open trucks. An improvement in their condition, and particularly a return of these detainees to work, is under present conditions quite out of the question. The sick here gradually pine away till they die of weakness of the heart and general debility. As already stated, the average daily mortality is between 250 and 300. One can best gain an idea of the conditions of incoming transports when I state that on one occasion, out of a transport of 1900 detainees over 500 arrived dead. The fight against spotted fever is made extremely difficult by the lack of means of disinfection. Due to constant use the hot-air delousing machine is now in bad working order and sometimes fails for several days. At the time of his visit S. S. Stabsarztführer Lolling promised me a “short-wave delousing machine.” To use this I need a more powerful transformer, which, according to information received from Bauinspektion Nord, Wismaerstrasse, Berlin, is awaiting collection. Although I require the apparatus so urgently, it is impossible at the present time to send transport to Berlin to collect it. […]
Now owing to this deliberation a catastrophe is taking place for which no one wishes to assume responsibility. It may be possible to initiate measures from your end so that the matter is put in hand.
Gruppenführer, I can assure you that from this end everything will be done to overcome the present crisis. With this letter I merely wanted to point out to you the difficulties which exist here. For my part it is a matter of course that these difficulties must be overcome. I am now asking you for your assistance as far as it lies in your power. In addition to the above-mentioned points I need here, before everything, accommodation facilities, beds, blankets, eating utensils – all for about 20,000 internees. […]
With that I wish to close my present report. In this connection, Gruppenführer, I want to assure you once again that on my part everything will definitely be done to bridge over this difficult situation. I know that you have even greater difficulties to overcome and appreciate that you must send to this camp all internees discharged from that area; on the other hand, I implore your help in overcoming this situation.”
Does this sound like someone sitting on his hands, listening to Wagner?
Areas of the East End are no go areas for practicing Jews. They will be physically attacked, or at least intimidated brutally.
This is the U.K. in 2009. Yet the police turn a semi blind eye.
Sorry this is seriously O.T.
Rant over.
Red Lepond.. why are you even trying to justify this shite??
wether that correspondence is true or not, which i seriously doubt, what purpose does it serve? why? completely off topic and, well, off site really…
are you seriously trying to take a view that concentration camps werent what they were???
un fucking beleivable
Piggy, we have synagogs round here next to mooslim areas that need security ousite on sabbath, jeez..
im Catholic, not practising, but i sympathise with you and what your faith have to go thru to worhip in this god foresaken shit hole of a country sometimes.. appeasment never won anything…
It’s a remarkable circumstance that the demonisation of the Nazis is the only political and historical position on which Communists, liberals and most conservatives agree. Sorry, but I ain’t playing that game, even if it means getting shot at from all sides.
In the words of Steve Sailer: ‘Truth is better for humanity than ignorance, lies, or spin. And it’s more interesting.’
Cheers mate. Im not practicising but Im thinking of getting involved.
“Im Sparticus..” etc.
Simon
BobbyS, that correspondence appeared in a book published by the British called The Belsen Trial. Singlehandedly it blew away much of the prosecution case, but that hardly mattered as Kramer and friends were dead men walking.
Red, you ever thought that maybe the reason most reasonable people (right wing, left wing, centre…)take up affront againts the Nazis is cos, urm.. they werent really very nice guys??
im afraid playing the sympathy vote wont really win in this case…
Hitler, hes a nice guy really! ooh yeh, can hear it now… why not stick him on Jeremy Kyle.. “i was so misunderstood.. they werent concentration camps, it was just a trial for Butlins..”
fuckin unbeleivable grow up stop quoting wiki and open ya eyes brother
Red, irrelevant.. one letter in one book does not excuse the Holocaust.. or explain how maybe, just maybe one camp Kommandant felt about what was happeneing, it was reprehensible and unforgiveable what happened in that hell hole
Sorry, BobbyS, but the demonisation of the Nazis has less to do with moral outrage and more to do with political capital. The Nazis, though being much more a party of the left than the right, have been transformed into a club with which to beat down any political philosophy to the starboard of right-liberalism. Either you play meekly along or you fight them on the beaches.
BobbyS, try ramping down the emotive tub-thumping and try taking a more reasoned approach. Determing the true extent of what you call the Holocaust is a topic of great interest, though one hampered by certain legal niceties and societal taboos.
Red Leopond:
All Kramers whinings basically centre around his anxieties that disease should spread to the “arayan” population, outside the camp complex. You admitted it yourself.
no, sorry Red, im a reasonable bloke, hell, im even partially educated… i know whats morally right and whats wrong, im a big boy now… i know the ins and outs of Nazi Germany probably a lot more than you realise, and to make political gain from bamboozling peolple with comments like
“The Nazis, though being much more a party of the left than the right”
i mean, what is that? they were a party of the left? left of what exactly? please explain.. then we can discuss your other points…
oh, and your Steve Sailer quote: ‘Truth is better for humanity than ignorance, lies, or spin. And it’s more interesting.’
begs the question… selective truth??
Red Leopond:
You said it was a matter of “public protection” The arayan public.
Red, please explain this:
“Determing the true extent of what you call the Holocaust is a topic of great interest, though one hampered by certain legal niceties and societal taboos.”
which legal niceties are were talking about?
oh, and by the way, i dont “tub thump” just feel pasionate about things i know i can stand up and be counted over.. i would appreciate your answer on my above quote thanks
red: würden Sie mich bevorzugen, um auf Deutsch zu erklären?
Well at least I know what you are.
Somebody who has great difficulty with the historical narrative. lol
It’s a bit fecking rich for a predominantly Jewish site like this place to moan and whine about someone else whipping up emotions over a large number of casualties and deaths.
Just pretend that everyone who was a casualty at Hillsborough was Jewish.
nuff said.
Disgraceful, unnecessary, racist comment Ady.
This is not a predominantly Jewish site
Richard Dimbleby was not spouting British military propaganda in 1945. He was REPORTING vividly on what he saw, what was directly in front of his eyes. Just go look at that report.
Bobby Sands’ knife and fork:
… and to make political gain from bamboozling peolple with comments like
“The Nazis, though being much more a party of the left than the right”
i mean, what is that? they were a party of the left? left of what exactly? please explain..
Bobby Sands’ kife and fork | 17.04.09 – 2:12 am | #
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Heh..if you thought that was bad (it is for the surprising number of people who cannot tell their left from their right),it’s nothing to the bamboozlement by “starboard”.
Wozzat, then, Red?
BobbyS, left of what? Left of centre, what else?
As for legal niceties, I’m referring to the legal repression in certain countries of persons critical of WW2 Allied propaganda.
And, yes, Dimbleby was reporting what he saw; the situation on the ground was indeed terrible. It’s the interpretation he put upon those events which was in line with government propaganda. Understand that this is not a criticism; it was his job and he probably wholly believed in what he was saying.
My point is that, sixty years later, we’re not compelled to uncritically swallow everything whole.
I think I should just point out that Bobby Sands’ knife and fork is totally out of touch with the feelings and the emotions surrounding the annual Hillsborough Memorial service.
At first I couldn’t quite grasp what was motivating you to make this ridiculous comment…
“”but i can tell you all now, 90% of people round here silently groaned this week… “fucking Hillsborough again…” “”
…it is totally untrue and utterly insensitive.
But then later in the thread you drop your guard and announce yourself as a blue, an Evertonian. And then it all became clear.
I think the wider readership of this blog ought to know that for years now the supporters of Everton FC have gloried in making lighte of Hillsborough, and even resort to chanting, at football matches, songs which mock those that dies and suffered.
So please don’t anybody think that this cretin in anyway represents the real 90% of Liverpudlians i.e. those who are respectful and understand the suffering caused by events at Hillsborough.
“fucking Hillsborough again…” might be what was groaned by scum like you and your kind, but the right minded people of Merseyside are much more respectful.
Starboard is a nautical term, I believe.
Red Lepond:
Starboard is a nautical term, I believe.
Red Lepond | 17.04.09 – 12:26 pm | #
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Indeed. I believe it comes from ships!
I wasn’t posing an actual question requiring an answer – just making the point about terminology.
Please, above all, don’t start on ropes and sails.
Fran:
Disgraceful, unnecessary, racist comment Ady.
Ahh, the Jokes about dead Scousers where okay Fran, but don’t bring the Jews into it. (Even if the comment wasn’t Disgraceful, unnecessary or racist)
The BBC and Biased BBC. Two sides of the same coin.
There are a lot of weirdos on this site unfortunately.
Isnt that right Ady?