Anyone catch Justin’s love-in concerning Obama’s 100th glorious days? Truly nauseating stuff. Like the way Justin misleads on the polls as well. He seemed to miss the recent one that suggests that US confidence that it can win the war on terror has hit a low since Obama came to power or the fact that the US economy has slumped disastrously since Obama ascended to on-high. Just too in love to see the blemishes, I guess. (P.S Didn’t Churchill, whom Obama quotes to Justin’s delight , also believe that you had to utterly destroy your enemy to achieve peace?)
JUSTIN HEARTS OBAMA
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Obama’s comparing himself with Churchill seemed to miss the fact that 1) we were at war with an enemy that (at least at that stage of the war) observed the Geneva Conventions and whose soldiers therefore were subject to their protection and 2) spies were not thus protected and after interrogation were hanged. To death.
What’s the comparison, anybody? Or is it just morre Obamaising?
The Obamateur in full empty headed flow – to the delight of his media fan club.
So why did Obama return the bust of Churchill which Blair gave to Bush ?
Maybe Michelle thought it didn’t fit in with the White House decor.
Was watching Sky News’ adoration of the Wonderful One’s first 100 days with Adam Boulton.
I’ll give Boulton his due. Glenn Beck, Fox News, was given quite some air time on the opposite view of Obama. More or less accusing Obama of taking the US down the road to communism – well, French communism, maybe.
Beck didn’t make too good a job of it to tell you the truth. But, at least Sky gave an opposing view.
Obama compared his attitude to torture as being akin to Churchill during WWII. On this Obama is right. The Webb pieces on the News at 10 last night and on Today that morning were full of views that dissented from David’s “glorious days”, including very prominently John Bolton on both occasions. See too here for a balanced appraisal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/04/100_days_in_100_words.html
Just because David says it’s so, doesn’t mean it is. Always consider the source material for yourselves and try to form your own opinions. You will want for instance to read the Iwan Morgan link I posted (but David ommitted to post) in an early thread. Not quite as David paints it.
Twizzle
You can’t give Sky its due for asking Beck for a view. He is clearly a joke and an embarrassment to the Right thinking people, as Charles Johnson has exposed so thoroughly. Indeed you would only ask him for a view if you wished to discredit the anti-Obama view. If however you wanted to feature a cogent and articulate anti-Obama view, you would ask someone like John Bolton to opine. And this is what the Webb has done.
“Obama compared his attitude to torture as being akin to Churchill during WWII. On this Obama is right.”
So why doesn’t he just lock up the captured enemy, combatant and non-combatant for the duration of the war, just as Churechill did? Somewhere nice and sunny and well-defended, like Guantanamo, for example? Let them go once the war’s over, keep ’em nice and safe in the meantime, just like Churchill did.
I think Churchill’s definition of torture and that of Obama may well be different. Churchill was, I imagine, not the type to be terrorised by a caterpillar. Obama may well be, for all I know.
I for one do not regard waterboarding as torture. Harsh interrogation yes – but not torture in the Nazi style.
And waterboarding was applied to only 3 important suspects – and Khalid was NOT waterboarded on 183 sessions, it was a far smaller number of occasions, with medical personnel in attendance. 183 is the number of actual “pours” of water for a few seconds, many pours per session.
None of the other treatments sound remotely like torture.
Obama is trying to blacken Bush’s name – is still running the campaign. But we have already seen that the CIA were very concerned to get full legal advice on what they were allowed to do, in face of possible recurrence of 9/11 with the mastermind of that day. No prosecution could succeed either against CIA personnel or against the lawyers who gave their honest legal opinions.
And Obama has deliberately tried to hide the fact that very significant information was obtained by waterboarding.
Most Americans – and I expect Brits – could not give a fig about Khalid being waterboarded, and would doubt whether this ranks as torture anyway.
Maybe that is why the latest Rasmussen poll shows that the proportion of Americans who feel confident in the protections against terrorism has plummeted in the past few weeks.
Obama is a spineless morally-equivocating pacifist – and more and more people are waking up to this.
RR – Read about Camp 020 and Colonely Stephens. That is what Obama is talking about.
flapjack 11:12
That too was a war !
Yes, the point is even in war you need to maintain a set of civilised standards to retain any sort of honour or standing when you have won it. More practically, Stephens adopted the approach he did because torture did not in his experince work. And the incredible success of his approach suggests he was right.
See here
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article729216.ece
Reading that piece, it looks like Stephens would have been condemned by Obama as a torturer. None of the Gitmo stuff involved inflicting pain, as far as I can see. No, the whole deal with Obama is to smear President Bush retrospectively.
Would that be the same Colonel Robin Stephens who ran Bad Nenndorf in postwar Germany, flapjackdavy?
For almost 60 years, the evidence of Britain’s clandestine torture programme in postwar Germany has lain hidden in the government’s files. Harrowing photographs of young men who had survived being systematically starved, as well as beaten, deprived of sleep and exposed to extreme cold, were considered too shocking to be seen.
As one minister of the day wrote, as few people as possible should be aware that British authorities had treated prisoners “in a manner reminiscent of the German concentration camps”…
The commanding officer, Colonel Robin Stephens, was cleared of a charge of “disgraceful conduct of a cruel kind” and told he was free to apply to rejoin his former employers at MI5.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/apr/03/uk.freedomofinformation
and it is exploding in his face – Obama is increasingly seen as a vacillating poseur. His trick of flying Air Force One at low altitude over New York shows his White House does not give a damn, it is all posturing.
“Obama is increasingly seen as a vacillating poseur.”
True enough, but you won’t find that out on from listening to Justin Webb.
Wonder if Webb’s at all related to those two great fans of Stalin, Sidney and Beatrice Webb?
Here’s a screenshot from the BBC’s Dear Leader page today. One could be forgiven for thinking that the BBC had won the contract to run the official Obama fan club website.
http://freebornjohn.blogspot.com/2009/04/complaint-to-bbc.html
Anyone hear Justin Webb’s tender Song of Praise to The One on the Obamessiah Toady Prog today? Hilariouys at first, but then after describing him in a shaking, awestruck voice as “preternaturally calm” I hadto make for the basin for a good vomit.
Ah well, at least there is no longer any shred of pretence at journalistic objectivity… which can only hasten the crappy BBC’s demise. So it’s all good news in the long run.
Michael,
I too struggled past the “preternaturally calm” – vomit inducing indeed.
flapjackdavey,
Did you see the sign that reads No Trolls here please? I don’t feed them anymore.
Glenn Beck on foxnews comes across as mentally insane. If there is a worse poster boy for the post-Bush conservative movement, I’d be shocked. The Republicans would do well to distance themselves from paranoid lunatics like him, otherwise they might alienate more than they ever hope to win over. John Bolton would be a better choice in some respects – he is sharp, but he’s rapidly partisan too, and a bit of bully, but he’s not bonkers like Beck.
FFPS,
Just what did Glen Beck say that upset you so much?
Did he tell lies about Obama, did he rant and rave?
The Times article about Colonel Stephens that flapjackdavy links to is getting some play in the leftie blogosphere because it was cited by Andrew Sullivan on his blog last week. The Huffington Post thinks Obama was referring to Sullivan at his press conference last night.
As I’ve pointed out, flapjackdavy’s argument (and therefore Sullivan’s and Obama’s) falls to bits when one knows that Colonel Stephens was actually quite prepared to oversee the use of torture. This deserves to be better known.
More powerful than the Axis in World War II:
The confluence of Beeboidery, left liberaloid thinking, Obama worship and Ecoloonery in:
“Costing the Earth. Obama’s Green Dream”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00jrpvs
Listen and weep as the BBC crow about the new concensus. More dangerous than Jonathan Ross’s megasalary.
DB | 30.04.09 – 1:47 pm
He was cleared on all counts. The point holds.
Dave V – Didn’t take you long to resort to the Troll nonsense. I think it’s a public service to point out the holes in your arguments.
Justin at his arse-licking best. By the way did anyone notice his little comment regarding the criticism of Obama’s torture position? You shouldn’t use torture, says Justin, “even if you suffer a bit”
EVEN IF YOU SUFFER A BIT!!!???
Tell that to the families of 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the London tube bombings, the Bali bombings, etc etc
“Even if you suffer a bit” should be remembered and thrown back at this elitist snob’s face.
He was cleared on all counts. The point holds.
flapjackdavy | 30.04.09 – 1:55 pm
There was a ticking time bomb of a possible third world war. Against this background Stephens ran a prison where torture was rife. He was let off, and quite right too. Your point holds nothing now, I’m afraid.
JohnA 11:11
Well said !
I believe that this story justifies a mention on this web site.
This is nothing less than the economic genocide of Coptic Christians in Egypt. It has nothing to do with health concerns. But because Muslims are the instigators and Christians the victims, the BBC is presenting it as a “health issue”.
Your site should be leading with this bias (and would be if it involved Isreal)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6193785.ece
Odious chairman (“Sir” Michael Lyons) of Britain’s Pravda being interviewed in today’s Spectator. Give him hell in the comments:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-m…ecting- it.thtml
Abandon ship,
Their ‘green dream’ will be our nighmare for sure, as with all socialist utopian mumbo jumbo ordinary people will suffer, this time the suffering will be huge and lasting.
There are no green jobs at the end of the eco rainbow, its a fantasy to suggest a green gold rush, the only growth sector will be the socialist state.
The sheer scale of the Obama regimes stupidity and ignorance based as it is on childish plastic marxism will sabotage the US economy so quickly that he will become a one term turkey(I hope!).
lets clear some things up shall we folks? To call Bush stupid was seen by many on the right as disrespectful of the office of the President, but its ok to do it when Obamas there? Come on … have some perspective. Bushy wasnt thick, it was a media invention. Barry O’bama isnt thick either. Neither are exactly intellectuals, but most people would agree that Barry is more articulate, and his worldly knowledge adds perspectives that little Bush didn’t have. Only time will tell in the end. Bush’s presidency was a mixed bag – the social conservative stuff was over reach, but he was sound on foreign policy, and the economy was ticking over fine until the 07 collapse. O’bama has done okish so far, but he has had events dictated to him so far. Wait and see methinks.
and stop calling O’bama a commie/marxist!! thats as misguided, and simplistic, as those who called Bushie a facsist.
Dinosaur Alan:
Without his teleprompters, Obama is even more inarticulate than Bush.
The man is a narcissist of the first order, everything is about him.
Did you see the 300 photos of his first 100 days? He’s in ’em all.
oh if only that were true cassis clay, ever see obama on the stump? like he was in st louis last night ? (st louis, by the way, is a dump of a city.) no teleprompter. he walked around, spoke pretty articulately. same during the presidential debates, again where was this teleprompter he suposedly depends on? sorry cassius, youre repeating a lame GOP myth there. gotta think through your attacks bit better.
Dino,
Its payback…you know, whats good for one is good for the other and all that.
I do agree with you that GW wasnt thick…but I have my doubts about Barry (oh, is that blasphemy I just committed?:)
flapjackdavy,
The only objective in a war is to win. I couldnt care less if we have to wipe out the entire civilian population of our enemy…as long as we win, thats all that counts.
After all, there is no prize for coming second in a war (although perhaps Japan and Germany might actually argue this point given their power house economic performaces since WWII ended!).
Re
David Vance
Please, please. Could we have the general thread at the top.
Commentators, me included, tend to use the first thread available, thus diluting whatever specific point is being debated.
Pretty please!!!
DB | 30.04.09 – 2:16 pm
The point Obama was making refers to WWII and Camp 020, where torture was not officially sanctioned and indeed stamped on very heavily. I am afraid the points holds very well indeed! whether torture (as opposed to bad treatment) happened in Germany after the war is moot.
The Obamessiah is an empty suit who has spent his entire life preparing for his ascent to the ultimate office. He has never had a proper job – at least Jesus was a carpenter for a couple of decades ….
“Didn’t Churchill, whom Obama quotes to Justin’s delight , also believe that you had to utterly destroy your enemy to achieve peace?)”
And didn’t Obama recently remove a bust of Churchill from the White House?
Can’t somehow see how getting banged up with a caterpillar is in the same class of torture as that practiced by the admirable Stephens.
Dinosaur Alan:
Oh the teleprompters (usually one to the right and one to the left) are there – it is when they fail you understand what a complete sham the man is.
Here is an example and there are many, many more.
In fact he’s on now on Sky, looking to the right and looking to the left.
Notice the number of times he says “I” and “me”.
Cassis – that teleprompter clip is funny shit. Although, ‘funny’ is also ‘scary’ and ‘alarming’: this man is POTUS and his excuse for stumbling and bumbling incoherently is that ‘he hasn’t had much sleep in the last 48 hours’ ……. What a jackass.
flapjackdavy | 30.04.09 – 1:55 pm |
All you’ve done in the direction of pointing out holes in David Vance’s argument here is say, “No, it isn’t.”
As usual. And you can’t possibly expect anyone to take you seriously when you come here with an alias that’s an obvious dig at your host.
David Vance is talking about the specific Today item he linked to. Your attempt to shift the argument to your own terms by linking to Webb’s latest blog post is not the same thing as proving that DV is wrong about the Today item. Webb’s post, incidentally, is total praise. You’re being dishonest if you claim it’s not.
The News at 10 item is not what DV was talking about, either. Another distraction, and an attempt to stifle real argument.
I heard nothing whatsoever about views that were full of views that dissented from David’s “glorious days”, including very prominently John Bolton on both occasions. Further, Webb lies about the polls, just as DV says. It seems like you’re the one being dishonest. Yet you insult everyone’s intelligence once again.
Let’s see you poke one hole in DV’s post. Pick something and explain where he got it wrong. You must go beyond, “No, it isn’t,” or nobody will take you seriously.
flapjackdavy | 30.04.09 – 4:50 pm
Obama was referring to an article which cited Colonel Stephens as an example of someone who didn’t need to use torture to get the info he wanted. The evidence of Bad Nenndorf, where Stephens was the commanding officer, indicates this was far from the truth. Even he realised the need to use any and all methods when required. The fact that Stephens was held up as an anti-torture hero by Sullivan – and by extension Obama and you – when in reality he was nothing of the sort undermines your argument far more than if he’d never been mentioned.
Yes, the Western Allies beat, starved and generally maltreated many German soldiers but not half as many as the Russkies did.
And is John Bolton that fat guy with the walrus moustache? Talking of keeping a distance from Glenn Beck – he was on Beck’s show last week. What can you do with these people anyway? They’re Americans.
Frankly, had I been one of those British soldiers who liberated a concentration camp, I would have found it very hard to resist decorating the wall with a hint of SS brain, let alone beating and starving them…
Matt Frei’s latest effort: Fapp fapp fapp fapp spurt
“The Obamas Do Not Look Awkward Doing Ordinary Things…”
Like screwing up Western Civilisation as we know it?
From the pic I thought she was the help at B&Q. Or doing 160 hrs community service on the city farm.
TPO/ David Vance
Yes, general threads should be more regular !
flapjack 4:50
Do you think we should judge actions in the past, by the Western standards of today ?
My late father was part of the Control Commission in Germany .
Have you any idea what it was like there, then ?
It was not 2009 Hampstead Heath.