Nick Clegg has finally done the right thing. He’s sacked Jenny Tonge!
The BBC reports this as though it was a quick decisive move by the Lib Dem leader. But this was done after considerable equivocation and hesitation, and protestations that she is not anti-Semitic, and is still worth listening to. Something must have got to him. Maybe Jenny Tonge was right all along about the Jewish Lobby getting its evil grip on ‘our party.”
Unfortunately, it can’t be much of a grip because Nick Clegg wants to halt Britain’s arms sales to Israel and persuade our EU counterparts to do the same, and suspend the proposed new cooperation agreement with Israel till ‘things change in Gaza.’ etc etc etc.
From what I’ve read about Nick Clegg’s policies on the Middle East, some lobby or other might have had a hand in forming his ideas, but it certainly wasn’t the ‘Israel’ one.
The Lib Dems really are a joke of a party, with idiots like Tonge, Teather, Limpdick Opec, Alcoholic Charlie boy, no wonder the one eyed mong wants to be friends they make HIM look normal (almost)
Outtakes: US Presidents BBC3: Reading the Sky planner comments shows you what it’s about “…includes the best Bush-ism’s, Clinton Catastrophe’s and the comedy duo of Palin and McCain”
Needless to say would anyone like to guess who nearly of of the clips were about? oh and which President didn’t get the piss taken out of him (or his VP)
Nick Clegg wants to halt Britain’s arms sales to Israel and persuade our EU counterparts to do the same.
The IDF are better equiped than than our military from rifles to tanks. Its they who should be providing us with weapons. Clegs nuts.
Britains arms sales to Israel are almost insignificant. Britain supplies less than 1 percent of Israel’s military imports.
My understanding is that a considerable part of this is from Israeli owned British companies. Apparently there are financial incentives to doing this and the business advantage that certain states can pretend they are not dealing with Israel. Consequently banning arms to Israel would do little to hamper the IDF.
Clegg is no doubt aware of this. He no doubt hopes for some credit for symbolism without much, if any real costs. It’s hard to find up-to-date figures but the 2004 figures illustrated show that the Israeli trade isn’t even large enough to mention.
Tonge seems to still have plenty of support from the loonies in her Liberal Dhimmicrap Party:
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/02/13/defending-jenny/
Like many other MPs Nick Clegg is lamentably ignorant about the complexities of the I/P conflict.
He takes the Palestinian narrative at face value, paying no more than lip service to the case for Israel. Recent articles he has written show what a childlike superficial grasp he has, and in the rush not to appear anti-Semitic he blurts out illogical and inconsistent statements, first defending Jenny Tonge, then saying Israel has every right to defend itself – but not by the overwhelming use of force. Probably prefers the underwhelming one.
Then he says he can’t be racist because his wife is Spanish, which is baffling to most of us, then he sacks Tonge, but no doubt will have to think up a way of appeasing those rogue “lib dems.”
I told my Lib Dem MP that it’s far more important to me that Clegg gets to know what he’s talking about, even if he sides with the Palestinians, than he continues to allow bigotry and lack of rigour to inform his judgments.
For a party leader it’s just not good enough. At least Gordon Brown says he supports Israel. That’s his one saving grace.
Imagine the type of horror and outcry the BBC would whip up if Tonge’s comments were aimed at any other race of coloured complexion. They would howl the word ‘racist’ from the rafters till the culprit was as unpersoned as they could possibly make them.
Make a Nazi style blood libel against the Jews and its all just some unfortunate misunderstanding. Clegg denying the patently obvious about Tonge’s anti-semitism is not worthy of scrutiny.
The BBC is an anti-semitic news organisation and it has reported her anti-semitic comments the way you would expect.
I’ve just had a double-take at Tonge’s picture. Put a bit of black paint under her nose and you’d never know the difference.
Vile woman
‘Imagine the type of horror and outcry the BBC would whip up if Tonge’s comments were aimed at any other race of coloured complexion.’
She didn’t aim at a race. She merely stated an inquiry should be set up to prevent such allegations going further and to clear the names of the rescue teams in Haiti. And of course whilst this disgusting blood libel is as old as the day is long, Tonge’s alleged suspicions are not helped with the lunatic fringe of Judaism, like Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh.
Of course she was being racist, she’s a fat ugly dyke.
How was she being racist?
By attacking Jews, or perhpas you think she wasn’t?
Given Tonge’s record it’s hard to take seriously any claim that she wants to clear Israel’s name.
Indeed, much easier, to label her an anti-semite.
Tonge’s record speaks for itself. You are being disingenuous. To suggest that an investigation is needed into this abhorrent blood libel is in itself an attempt to gain traction and publicity . Tonge would be happy to see Israel vanish from the earth and her alleged concern for Israel’s good name is as worthless as the rest of her worthless utterances.
Where did I say an investigation is needed? And how does Tonge’s record speak for itself?
RepublicanStones: I’m going to assume you haven’t been following the news when you ask about Baroness Tonge’s record. It’s full of controversial statements about Jews and Israel. She denies that she is antisemitic but no one has every heard her utter a prosemitic statement, even when trying, however clumsily, to get out from the mess her ‘antisemitic’ statements and actions have landed her. My comments in Italics.
In March of 2009 Tonge joined a six-person delegation of British politicians which met with Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal in Syria. [Then and now Hamas was a proscibed organization]. Tonge told an interviewer that their goal was to force the British government to talk to Hamas and pressure the United States to do likewise. She stated “You don’t make peace by talking to your friends. You make peace by talking to your enemies,” and said she knew that her meeting with Meshaal might be considered illegal and lead to her arrest. “That is one of the risks that you take,” she said. [Risking gaol to force her Government to hold discussions with an organization recommending genocide against Jews as a religious obligation].
In January 2004, while still a Member of Parliament, Tonge was asked to step down as children’s spokeswoman by Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy after saying of Palestinian suicide bombers: “If I had to live in that situation – and I say that advisedly – I might just consider becoming one myself.” [She’s hedging her words but that’s far from condemnation]. Tonge refused to apologise: [Not even an insincere, “I may have been misinterpreted“]. “I was just trying to say how, having seen the violence and the humiliation and the provocation that the Palestinian people live under every day and have done since their land was occupied by Israel, I could understand …” [This parrots the standard Palestinian claim that actions otherwise considered terrorism are excused by frustration – an excuse unaccepted in any British court].
continued
Tonge said in 2006: “The pro-Israeli [Even if we reluctantly accept that pro Israel doesn’t have to mean Jewish lobby Tonge ignores a century of Liberal suport for Jewish claims] has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they’ve probably got a grip on our party.” In response, Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell chastised Tonge, saying her remarks were “unacceptable” and had “clear anti-Semitic connotations.” An all-party group of lords led by the former archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, said her “irresponsible and inappropriate” comments “evoked a classic anti-Jewish conspiracy theory.” In response Tonge said that professors Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer’s article “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” that appeared in the March 23, 2006 issue of The London Review of Books supported her assertion that the “‘Israel lobby’ had a disproportionate voice in Anglo-American foreign policy.” She also emphasized that her comments “were about the Israeli lobby in politics. They were a big distance from being about Jewishness or anti-Semitism.” [The Vanessa Redgrave approach: If one repeats a classic antisemitic trope it isn’t antisemitic if the word Jew is replaced by Israeli]
During November 2008, Tonge, along with Lord Ahmed, Clare Short and some MEPs [all with form], broke through the Blockade of Gaza by boat and visited Gaza. They were there at the invitation of the ‘European Campaign to lift the Siege of Gaza‘. [Here Tonge is possibly risking her life to make propaganda for Hamas. This is a step or two further than risking gaol to encourage dialogue].
On 12 January 2009 Tonge in the House of Lords Tonge asked about investigations into alleged Israeli war crimes in the Israel-Gaza conflict. [Eight years of Hamas rockets aimed at Israeli civilians was probably, like suicide bombing, an understandable result of frustration].
Finally finishing.
On 12 February 2010, she was sacked by Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg after lending credence to allegations of organ harvesting [Yet another Medieval antisemitic trope that expert after expert has debunked as impossible to do under the conditions and supported by zero evidence] by Israeli Defence Force medical teams after the 2010 Haiti earthquake by suggesting an independent inquiry should be established. Nick Clegg said the comments were “wrong, distasteful and provocative”. The allegations were originally printed by the news website The Palestine Telegraph, of which Tonge is a patron [Just a coincidence?].
Given Tonge’s record for ‘Destroy Israel’ activism one can hardly take the claim she wants to protect Israel’s name seriously.
Thank you Deegee for taking the time to go back to square one on this.
However, RepublicanStone’s comment history
“ Unfortuantelt for zionism, the desert was blooming long before they concoted their little lie ; )”
indicates that he/she will carry on regardless, or should I say regradsels.
Do you troll here often?
Took them long enough didn’t it?
Tonge is a woman who on Question time does her best to shout down other members of the panel. This says to me that she is a woman who is deaf to other views does not like criticism and on Israel she is totally bias against this country, but like a bad smell she keeps popping up on the BBC. Just because she is a Peer does not mean is has any sense.
Two planks come to mind..
She denies that she is antisemitic but no one has every heard her utter a prosemitic statement
The term you are looking for is philo-semitic. And I didn’t realise an absence of philo-semitic statement was indictment of anti-semitism. Hamas were a democratically elected party. Whatever their charter states, looking for engement with them is again not evidence of anti-semitism. As regards her understanding of palestinian terrorism, it is a fair statement. You cannot expect to ethnically cleanse a people from their land and expect no resistance. Even Ben_Gurion himself admitted Israel and Zionism were the agressors. Former speaker of the knesset Avraham Burg was able to articulate such understanding…
“Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger forever, it won’t work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself . . .We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks . . . Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centers of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated. We could kill a thousand ringleaders a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below—from the wells of hatred and anger, from the “infrastructures” of injustice and moral corruption.”
Again her statement is no evidence of anti-semitism.
the Israel-lobby is an excellent analysis of the influence which the various pro-zionist/Israel lobby groups have on western politics. Its not anti-semitic to have read it, or even agree with it. There is no claims of a secret cabal, this lobby conducts its business out in the open just like the gun and tabacco lobby. I recommened you read it before passing judgement on it or Tonge’s support for its conclusions. You may not like it, but as Rabbi Lerner of Tikkun states..
‘We at Tikkun have been involved in trying to create a liberal alternative to AIPAC and the other Israel-can-do-no-wrong voices in American politics. When we talk to Congressional representatives who are liberal or even extremely progressive on every other issue, they tell us privately that they are afraid to speak out about the way Israeli policies are destructive to the best interests of the United States or the best interests of world peace—lest they too be labeled anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. If it can happen to Jimmy Carter, some of them told me recently, a man with impeccable moral credentials, then no one is really politically safe.’
Again no evidence of anti-semitism. breaking the blockade on Gaza is also no evidence of anti-semitism, and you are really grasping at straws to try and portray that as such. Asking for investigations in possible war crimes is also NO evidence of anti-semitism. Now as regards her request for an investigation into possible organ harvesting, as I’ve stated, it doesn’t help Judaism’s case that some loonies come out with this nonsense…
“If a Jew needs a liver, can he take the liver of an innocent non-Jew to save him? The Torah would probably permit that”
(Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh)
And if you think empathy with the palestinians and pro-palestinian action makes one guilty of ‘Destroy Israel’ activism and by extension, anti-semitism, then I am guilty as well. Of course what such ridiculous assertions are evidence of, is the pro-Israel’s crowd lacking the ability to offer any kind of reasoned critique and rebuttal to those who side with Palestinians. You do not hear the pro-Palestinian side of the debate crying long and hard about anti-semitism (as palestinians are a semitic people) or anti-arab hatred emanating from the pro-Israel crowd. Why? Well for the very simple reason that we are backed up by history, facts and morality. We have no need to go down the slur route to try and achieve support for our cause.
However, RepublicanStone’s comment history
“ Unfortuantelt for zionism, the desert was blooming long before they concoted their little lie ; )”
indicates that he/she will carry on regardless, or should I say regradsels.
Are you claiming there was no ‘bloom’ before zionism? Unfortunately history disagrees with you. And sue, its best not to engage in peadantry, particularly when you’re not up to scratch on little things like punctuation yourself 😉
It is a mark of the BBC’s antisemitist streak that they use Jenny Tonge so much on the airwaves. Just like they use Galloway.
I’m gonna walk straight past the troll.
Good man Mr Anderson, keep walking, much easier to slur, which gives us on the side of morality, a right a laugh 😉
I’ve seen your comments elsewhere, so I get your drift..
Look, we all take sides, and you and I are on different sides. You think Hamas has the moral high ground, possibly mistakenly identifying their ‘struggle’ with the Irish Republican one.
Your method of argument typifies the pattern followed by pro Palestinian bloggers.
Select quotes from known anti Zionists, revisionist historians and left wing human rights protagonists.
Ignore the virulent anti-Semitism inherent in Islam.
Ignore the virulent repressive and misogynistic ideology inherent in Islam, and in so doing create a naïve unrealistic moral equivalence.
Make light of the existential threat to Israel and underplay its precarious position, namely being surrounded by hostile nations hell bent on destroying it..
Proclaim the innocence and good intentions of yourself and others. Pretend not to recognise any anti-Semitism short of the gas chambers.
This history that you say “disagrees with” us. Whose history would that be?
Anyway I don’t see what you’ve got to complain about, the BBC is 99% with you on this, so why bother trolling here or on sites like Oy Va Goy? I suggest you return to CIF or HYS where you fit in; and it’s not really pedantic to joke about the bucketful of typos that rendered your original comment almost incomprehensible..
The BBC lobbies for the ‘Arabs’ of Gaza in the Middle East, but Egyptian Christian Copts are victims of some perennial Islamic persecution, which gets a rare BBC mention here:
“Egyptian Coptic murder trial opens and is adjourned”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8514705.stm
Some historical background which is missing from BBC reporting:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/br0nc0s/managed-mt/mt-search.cgi?search=Egyptian+christian+copts&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20
That’s the scariest-looking tranny I’ve seen in some time. I wonder if it was attractive it’d hate Jews less. I guess we’ll never know for sure.
You think Hamas has the moral high ground
Where did i say that?
The Palestinins have the moral high ground as they are not the agressors. Which Ben_gurion himself admitted.
Your method of argument typifies the pattern followed by pro Palestinian bloggers.
This sounds awfully like an attempt at dimestore pysch is going to follow, not a critque or rebuttal of points i have raised.
Select quotes from known anti Zionists, revisionist historians and left wing human rights protagonists.
Ignore the virulent anti-Semitism inherent in Islam.
Ignore the virulent repressive and misogynistic ideology inherent in Islam, and in so doing create a naïve unrealistic moral equivalence.
Make light of the existential threat to Israel and underplay its precarious position, namely being surrounded by hostile nations hell bent on destroying it..
Proclaim the innocence and good intentions of yourself and others. Pretend not to recognise any anti-Semitism short of the gas chambers.
And i was right. So care to refute the quotes are just label them with names you think carry a bad connotation? Why is you equate the Palestinians with Islam. And for that matter, should you worry yourself about the anti-gentile stuff to be found in jewish scripture?
Should you worry yourself about the anti-arab rhteoric from some Jews? Do you consider these questions? i doubt it somehow. It seems you think that an honest look at the history and the facts should be shunned for fear of encouraging ‘anti-‘ anything feeling. what kind of history teacher did you have at school?
And Israel is surrounded by hostile countries exactly like the British knew she would be, when they began supporting zionism. You cannot ethnically cleanse a people, and just expect them to forget about it.
I did toy with the idea of rebutting your comment point by point, but I decided not to. You haven’t rebutted any of my points either, so we’re even.
I’ll just deal with the bits from your post above that I understood.
“Palis are not the aggressors?”
Do you mean in the original war against Israel in 1948 instigated by Arab anti-Semitism, or were you referring to Israel’s recent reply to eight years of aggression towards Israel from Gaza, instigated by Islamist anti-Semitism?
You ask if I worry about various things.
I don’t worry about anything in any scripture unless it’s being taken literally and evangelised as a lifestyle choice.
Anti-Arab rhetoric is generally reactive. Anti Semitic rhetoric by Muslims is pro active and based on medieval myths, so I worry about that, yes.
I didn’t learn history at school as it happens. I learned what I could as an adult. I do consider some of these questions, since you ask, but you are free to doubt it.
In your last paragraph, are you saying the Jews knew what they were letting themselves in for, poking their noses in where they’re not wanted? Are you saying anti Semites should be able to live Judenfrei in ‘Muslim Lands? Do you think the Jews were asking for it, disturbing the poor anti-Semites who were happily living in their Jew-free moral high ground?
Then, having advocated Jew-free land for Arabs, you accuse Jews of ethnic cleansing, when there are over a million Israeli Arabs living happily in Israel.
I’m tempted to say you couldn’t make it up. So I will.
I see you’ve been trolling on CiFWatch too. I suppose you know what you’re letting yourself in for, but why not practice what you preach, and keep your nose out?
Top of the “See Also” links on the BBC’s report on Tonge’s sacking is this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7719880.stm
You have to get right to the end before you find mention of Tonge.
Do you mean in the original war against Israel in 1948 instigated by Arab anti-Semitism, or were you referring to Israel’s recent reply to eight years of aggression towards Israel from Gaza, instigated by Islamist anti-Semitism?
I mean since even before the creation of Israel. BTW 1948 was a war begun by zionists when they refused to accept the indigneous peoples perfectably legitimate decision not to accept partition of their land. the palestinians were under no moral or legal obligation to accpet 181, a famous jurist of the time Hans Kelsen (himself a jew) highlighted how resolution 181 held only recommendation status, not enforcement. Furthermore, the surrounding arab nations came at the request of the people who held sovereignty in Palestine, namely, the palestinians. Of course you’ll say they invaded Israel, but as the indigenous people held sovereignty and were also protected by the UN charter and also the minor fact that pre-Un the league of naions had classified plaestine as a Class A mandate, means that as the higher committe of palestine requested assistance from the surrounding arab nations as their sovereignty was under threat from mostly immigrant paramilitaries who were being armed by outside elements – such as Czechslovakia for instance. the legalities surrounding this period make for very interesting reading.
Perhaps you are unaware of ben-Gurion’s admission – here let me post it for you 😉
“When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves —- that is ONLY half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.”
Anti-Arab rhetoric is generally reactive. Anti Semitic rhetoric by Muslims is pro active and based on medieval myths, so I worry about that, yes.
Actually Ahad Ha’am, a cultural zionist writing in 1891, lamented the literature of some of the earliest zionists which was grossly racist in its tone. furthermore, there is a direct correlation between the rise of zionism and the rise of anti-semitism in the arab world. So if it’s reactive hatred you are looking for 😉
And some of the awful anti-arab rhetoric comes not just from jews but from other gentiles as well. So it seems you care only about hatred to one group of people, which i think the term sectarian can be applied to.
In your last paragraph, are you saying the Jews knew what they were letting themselves in for, poking their noses in where they’re not wanted? Are you saying anti Semites should be able to live Judenfrei in ‘Muslim Lands? Do you think the Jews were asking for it, disturbing the poor anti-Semites who were happily living in their Jew-free moral high ground?
No I am referring to Sir Ronald Storrs famous ‘Little loyal jewish Ulster’ quote. And his and other british politicians friendship with famous jewish zionists of the time. And it seems you are painting all arabs as anti-semites, and unfortunately for you, it seems you are also unaware that there were palestinian jews living there before zionism, and were also suspicious of zionism, and rightly so as it turned out. So your contetion that Palestine wea free of jews befpore zionism is again not backed up by history. And i suppose the palestinians must have been the laziest anti-semities on the planet if they didn’t bother to remove their own indigeous jews, and indeed the samaritans as well come to think of it.
Then, having advocated Jew-free land for Arabs, you accuse Jews of ethnic cleansing, when there are over a million Israeli Arabs living happily in Israel.
happily? have you asked them? Sectarian property and marriage laws, nevermind grossly unfair distribution of tax money on services, amenities etc. And you seem to think because the zionists didn’t get rid of all the arabs, they therefore got rid of none ! unfortunately yet again, you are at odds with historical reality and indeed not backed up by Israeli admissions. furthermore, statements by some Israeli politicians in recent years inidcates perhaps the job is indeed not finished.
I see you’ve been trolling on CiFWatch too. I suppose you know what you’re letting yourself in for, but why not practice what you preach, and keep your nose out?
I see now, you prefer not to debate, not to learn, merely to have an echo chamber full of yes men who agree with your every misinformed and false belief.
I didn’t learn history at school as it happens.
Or at all it seems. would you like me to contiue with your education?
There is an old Indian saying – when you let the monkey keep climbing up the tree, in the end all you can see is its backside.
“would you like me to contiue with your education?”
I’ll decline that offer. You’ve already educated me enough, thanks.
Indeed Mr Anderson, a monkeys ass is a good description for some peoples attempts at debate.
It is not worth debating with ranters like you. And this thread is about batty old Jenny Tonge, not you.
Ranters ? Why is it people you disagree with, when incapable of refuting them, you merely resort to name calling?
“Ranters ? Why is it people you disagree with, when incapable of refuting them, you merely resort to name calling?”
Because you are trolling – the thread is on the subject of Tonge.
Trolls are those who try to hijack the debate onto another subject completley. This is the Biased BBC blog not a soap box for your rants.
I would suggest that this person be ignored and I don’t mean because his views cannot be refuted but becasue he is leading the debate off the subject.
Has he gone…?
🙁
Just noticed this mind numbingly bland article from the bbc. Can you imagine how the article would have looked if the reporter in question had been taken into custody by the IDF?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8515546.stm
“His arrest happened abruptly during a military tribunal in Gaza on Sunday. Martin had been called to testify on behalf of Mohammed Abu Muailik, a Gaza man accused of collaberating with Israel. Martin had just begun to speak when the prosecutor ordered Hamas police to take him into custody. Ehad Jaber, the attorney representing Muailik says police were rough with Martin.
There are indications that the impetus to even turn attention to Martin came from statements Muailik made in his confession. Jaber says the confession was coerced. “Anyone was under such torture would say the same,” he said.”
http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/02/15/hamas-arrests-british-journalist/?test=latestnews
A mouthful from Tonge, on Ahmadinejad’s ‘PRESSTV’, still operating its propaganda from its LONDON HQ, courtesy of Labour government:
“With champions like these”
http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/02/15/with-champions-like-these/
Are chunks of the so-called ‘British left’ comfortable political
bedfellows with their Iranian Islamic regime chums in uniting against Israel?