The Daily Mail reports that the BBC’s favourite turbulent priest, Giles Fraser, is unhappy with politicians who merely pay lip service to the real meaning and demands of Christianity :
Here’s the problem: no-one was ever crucified for kindness. Jesus was not strung up on a hideous Roman instrument of torture because of his good deeds. If Jesus is just a remarkably good person whose example we ought to follow, why the need for the dark and difficult story of betrayal, death and resurrection that Christians will commemorate this week?
The English, of course, have always been a little bit awkward when it comes to full-throttle Christianity. Traditionally, we like the gentle and undemanding pace of Cathedral evensong and prefer the parish priest who visits the sick rather than the one who corners you and asks you if you have been saved.
These gentle people with wet handshakes are approachable community figures, helping knit together the fabric of society with bingo and Sunday school. And we also want them to be figures of fun because that is how we keep religion safe.
It wasn’t always this way. Thousands were butchered during the Civil War in the name of their different understandings of God – probably the last flowering of popular religious fundamentalism in England. I suspect it was in reaction against the deep political traumas of the 17th Century that the English re-invented Christianity as something to do with kindness and good deeds.
When religious ideology got as toxic as it did, it was an act of genius to redefine religion as being primarily about pastoral care. From the 18th Century onwards, Christianity ceased to be about pike-toting revolutionaries hoping to rebuild Jerusalem in here in England.
Instead, through the Church of England, it increasingly became a David Cameron-type faith: the religion of good deeds.
It served the English well. It was dignified, socially useful and largely undemanding. The big society in action.
But will any politician really have the gall to preach the full story of Christ’s crucifixion? As St Paul himself noted, it is offensive and scandalous stuff. It means being brave, taking risks, standing up to wrong, even when – and this is bound to happen – it is personally distressing for us to do that.
It means real belief and absolute commitment. It is so much more than a brief nod to Sunday school truisms.
It is sad – even if it is understandable – that so much of what we hear from leading figures in politics and elsewhere is a pallid imitation of Christianity, the equivalent of empty-gesture politics. Real faith, like real leadership, means taking hard decisions and standing by them.
Wonder then what Fraser thinks of the Muslim fundamentalists…..they are committed to following the strictures of their religion as close to the letter as possible……and yet we are told these are ‘extremsists’ or they are perverting the real meaning of Islam.
So…is Giles an ‘extremist’ for wanting ‘Real faith, real belief and absolute commitment’?
Ironically a few days earlier he was lambasting Eric Pickles, a politician, for being too emphatically, provocatively Christian…too much religious triumphalism no less….Giles wants less Christian commitment (er doesn’t he?) in case it upsets…well……
When Eric Pickles calls Britain a Christian nation I side with the atheists
For Pickles to talk provocatively of us being a Christian nation at the same time as sending the coppers into a Muslim-dominated council is a whopping misjudgment.
Religious commitment or is it extremism?…….An interesting topic for Nicky Campbell to explore?
You an see why the BBC just loves Giles.
Interested though in Frasers assertion that ‘the English re-invented Christianity as something to do with kindness and good deeds.’
Hmmm…surely that is the basis of Christianity rather than Giles’ preferred ‘pike-toting revolutionaries’ enforcing their Puritan ethics upon the world….
“I Desire Mercy, Not Sacrifice”
Maybe this sort of thing seems familiar and attractive to Fraser, so modern and yet centuries old……Cromwell’s Puritans….a Reformation ‘Trojan Horse’?…..
Puritans were dissatisfied and bent on the destroying of the dregs of popery. They were a group of literate and often highly articulate people acting like a fifth column to undermine and radically change the Church of England through sympathisers and activists in parliament. some aimed to reform by peaceful means others wanted to turn England to their religion completely and join their co-religionists in europe. Up and down the country they took over parishes and imposed a new belief…that they were the chosen ones and everyone else was excluded and was damned. Where the godly would get a foothold in a parish they would often tear it apart. They disrupted peaceful communities with their preaching and efforts to discipline those they regarded as godless resulting in bitter divisions and denouncements of sinners.
….of course the puritans eventually had to leave England and sail off to a place where they could live by their own beliefs.
No such thing as ‘Muslim fundamentalists’ there are Muslims and Apostates That’s it! Nothing else nothing in between and this naming of Muslims into different groups is a Fascist construct to protect Muslims from criticism. If they can say “Oh they’re not all like that” then they feel they have a justifiable excuse.
If in fact they are “all like that” then they would be forced to admit there was a serious problem!
Rant over on that score, but I stopped going to church when I realised I was attending an unopposed meeting of the socialist workers party with a few songs thrown in. Vicars these days often have no belief in God, but a belief in all the Liebour party values, and use their privileged positions in the pulpit to spread their twisted belief unopposed and protected by the law of “indecent behaviour in a church”, contrary to section 2 of the 1860 Ecclesiastical Courts Jurisdiction Act, formerly part of the Brawling Act of 1551.
“this naming of Muslims into different groups is a Fascist construct”
Or maybe it’s just that pigeon-holing makes it easier for you to vent your hatred. If the world is not blank and white, then you may actually have to engage your brain instead of just tarring as many people as possible with a badly aimed brush.
Thankfully, the majority of people in the real world aren’t quite so stupid as to believe the sort of batshit crazy, binary world that Biased BBC commenters insist we all live in. Are there truly heinous people in the world? Absolutely. Is every devotee of the Muslim faith evil? Absolutely not.
Not a particularly difficult concept for people of average intelligence to grasp. But there will always be people who refuse to admit it, because indulging in their own bigoted little fantasies makes them feel marginally better about themselves.
You don’t know much about Islam do you Scott?
What you have done in your crass ignorance is to insult and blaspheme against your brown eyed boys and favourite religion. Under its laws the penalty for that is death. Under laws attempted to be enacted by your mates in the Labour party you could have been sent to prison!
A batshit binary world? Living in or describing one?
For Islam, the world is indeed binary. The Qur’an is the very word of God, to deny it is blasphemy. You either believe in all of it or you are an apostate – and the penalty for that is death!
Thankfully for us most Muslims learn the Qur’an in the classical Arabic in which it is written and do not understand it. They have to be told by others what it says, and they in their turn have been told it by someone else!
So we have established that you know nothing about the subject which you preach. You have gratuitously offended the entire Muslim community, and because someone has dared tell you the truth about something you hold very dear, but don’t understand, you start name calling.
Were you bullied at school Scott? You seem very keen to bully other people who simply know more than you do.
Bless.
I’ve read the Qu’ran, just as I’ve read the Bible. I’ve met many Muslim people, many Hindus, many Sikhs, many Jews, many Christians.
Your description of Muslims seems to be based on what you want the facts to be.
You seem very keen to bully other people who simply know more than you do.
You seem very keen to present yourself as knowledgable. And yet you hide behind a ridiculous pseudonym which your words demonstrate to be false. Why are you too cowardly to put your real name to your bigotry? Why are you scared to admit how prejudiced you are under your real name?
You have heard here that there are many people who have spoken to Muslims who have said exactly what I have.
By your logic there must be an awful lot of religious Muslims who are Bigoted (did you learn nothing from Gordon Brown?) and who know little about the religion they practice.
I think the Muslims you’ve met are the ones in a working environment where they are careful what they say.
You don’t seem to be able to counter the theology though. Because the book is believed to be the word of God believers are required to believe, accept, and submit to all of it. This is not bigotry, it is simply a statement of fact.
If I am wrong then kindly point out where, and how the religion is as you see it. I doubt you will be able to do this though, reading the Qur’an is not understanding it (if you have actually read it). Again, you say that my assessment is wrong, and – ‘bigotted’ but you are unable to say how or why.
So it’s back to the bullying and the name calling.
Why don’t I use a real name? How would you know it was real if I did? Besides having seen two recent court cases where the useless brigade have wholly over reacted, I do not believe the UK is a place where freedom of speech is allowed any more.
You and your bullying ilk have done that Scott, you must be very proud. Can’t be far away from the re education camps now, and following that the death camps. Can’t have anyone deviating from the one true belief can we? After all they’re just ‘hate filled bigots’ exterminating them could only be a good thing, couldn’t it ?
I’ll leave Mr. T to his thoughts and as always pass on those I don’t hold with.
But I can admire someone moved to address a claim they don’t agree with.
However…
‘Or maybe it’s just that pigeon-holing…
Hold that… thought.
‘…tarring as many people as possible with a badly aimed brush.’
The very idea.
‘….the sort of batshit crazy, binary world that Biased BBC commenters insist we all live in’.
That may indeed be some, but again you seem to have rather forgotten you too are a commenter and simply lumping all together, again in another logic failure mind dump.
If you are going to take on extremes fine, but maybe target them properly if seeking to score a sniper hit on an actual foe vs. pulling the toggle on the suicide vest in the nearest marketplace.
It’s not a particularly difficult concept for people of even your intelligence to grasp.
Eviscerated…. petard, hoisted…..job nicely done.
“I’ll leave Mr. T to his thoughts and as always pass on those ”
Her thoughts !
Sincere apologies for the (clearly incorrect) presumption.
It’s not a particularly difficult concept for people of even your intelligence to grasp.
How would you know?
Scott the question isn’t whether all Muslims are evil clearly their not , the question is whether the ideology of Islam is evil .I’m sure you don’t think the fact that most Nazis loved their mother redeemed them do you?
And I,m not sure how you feel qualified to continual appeal to majority consensus when on most issues you seem to be at odds with it Are you a member of common purpose you know “leading beyond your authority” and all that?
Is Islam a religion of peace?
http://www.faithfreedom.org/is-islam-a-religion-of-peace/
Scott, you are the perfect illustration of the head in sand brigade….so desperate not to offend that you put aside all logic and common sense.
Thoughtful is perfectly right…The once head of the MCB, Iqbal Sacranie, stated quite clearly that ‘There is no such thing as moderate or extreme Islam, there is just Islam.’
Guess he might know.
You have also ignored what Giles Fraser said…those of a religious persuasion must be fully committed to that religion and its teachings…you can’t pick and choose the bits you like….all or nothing.
Lastly you are obviously ignorant of the origins and teachings of Islam.
God revealed Islam to the Arabs because Christians and Jews perverted their own revelations and split into many different sects…..see Monty Python’s ‘Life of Brian’.
Islam, the final revelation, insists you do not do this…….
NO SECTS IN ISLAM – WE ARE ONLY MUSLIMS (THOSE THAT SUBMIT)
‘Muslims today have regrettably divided and subdivided themselves into numerous sects each one labeling themselves by diverse names such as Sunni (e.g. Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi, Barelvi, Wahabi, Deobandi) or Shia (e.g. Twelver, Ismaili, Jafri, Zaidiyya, Khwarij), or Sufi (e.g. Chishti, Naqshbandi, Mawlawi, Qariyyah) and many others.’
‘The Quran strongly forbids divisions of any sort or to associate with those that break away into sects.’
006.159
“Indeed, those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you have no part with them in the least: their affair is with God: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they used to do”
Once again, I’m guessing they know what they are talking about…and you don’t, despite your incredible self professed intelligence.
Interesting that you think labelling a true Muslim as one who actually follows the tenets of Islam is to ‘tar them’.
From that I take it you think Giles Fraser is also ‘stupid and batshit crazy’ for suggesting such a thing for Christians?
Shia’s, like Mehdi Hasan, and Amahdis…..are not Muslims according to Sunnis.
so desperate not to offend that you put aside all logic and common sense.
Sorry Alan, but I was too busy laughing at that comment from you to properly concentrate on what I’m sure was another meandering bout of copying and pasting of which you are so ardently a fan.
If you are such a fan of logic and common sense, how come you cast both aside so frequently? For example, how come people who report on climate change are easily dismissed as “morons with arts degrees”, but you gleefully link to James Delingpole (an English Literature graduate)? It surely can’t be solely because his prejudices match up with your own – that would mean putting aside all logic and common sense. Oh, wait…
If you want me to treat you seriously, try not being such a blatant hypocrite. Try and behave like a serious adult. Try and behave like someone who doesn’t need to rely on a group of liars, idiots and bigots to back you up for your own validation.
Or do you what you always do. Pretend you’re being a man, while behaving like a spoilt little boy. Hide behind your nastiness and hypocrisy. Hide behind the commenters who will verbally abuse me and threaten me with physical violence, and then delete my posts if I show that I’m not going to be intimidated by their abuse.
You, Guest Who, “Thoughtful” and the rest can tell yourselves that you’re better than everybody else. By all means, keep on doing so. Just don’t be surprised if you hear laughter wherever you go. Just remember that you’re not being laughed with…
Alan,
“Thoughtful is perfectly right…The once head of the MCB, Iqbal Sacranie, stated quite clearly that ‘There is no such thing as moderate or extreme Islam, there is just Islam.’ “
No Alan, you are just being as typically duplicitous as always. “Thoughtful” was talking about Muslims; Iqbal Sacranie was talking about Islam. See what you did there?
You then go on to to say;
“Islam, the final revelation, insists you do not do this…….’NO SECTS IN ISLAM – WE ARE ONLY MUSLIMS (THOSE THAT SUBMIT)…’ etc.
Once again, I’m guessing they know what they are talking about…”
Yes Alan they know, but unfortunately you do not; seeing as you tragically copied the above direct from the first site you found on Google:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/no%20sects%20FM3.htm
The author of which says:
“I personally do not claim to be an authority over any particular speciality, discipline or thought… Please do not follow me or my work blindly” [his emphasis, not mine].
And yet here you are claiming that he speaks on behalf of 1.5 billion muslims.
How strange…
You’re not a uni lecturer by any chance are you, Dez – you know, the sort who are keen to appease Muslim sensibilities by implementing gender segregation in our universities? Sounds like you kinda bag you seeing Islam as being beyond criticism an’ all.
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/12/universities-uk-legal-gender-segregation-equality-human-rights
Scott – You applaud the hounding of Christian B and B owners by gay zealots yet where are you when homosexuality is openly condemned and classed as a crime punishable by death by Muslim preachers? The same imams who are given public forums to spew their intolerance and hate in front of segregated audiences in our once-civilised country? Where are you and your fellow gay rights protestors when that happens?
You’re a laughing stock, mate.
Hmmmm. How would you classify Raheem Kassam?
It’s understandable that people want to have the world as black and white, makes short term thinking easier, but the colourful reality makes us richer in the long run.
Re: Thoughtful says:
April 14, 2014 at 4:45 pm
No such thing as ‘Muslim fundamentalists’ there are Muslims and Apostates That’s it!
This would be the same Raheem Kassam who tweeted a pic of himself drinking strong beer would it?
You sure he’s really a practicing Muslim because he looks an awful lot like an apostate !
I know he’s from a Muslim family and while he’s clearly an enlightened human being, I’ve never heard him explain his present religious stance.
Thoughtful, I know what you mean, about a vague ‘socialism’ masquerading as Christianity. I don’t know where you live but I think you’ll find there are freer more independent and less establishment churches which emphasise personal responsibility and community and that don’t look to the State to provide.
these words keep on ringing in my ears what anjem choudary said on bbc newsnight after the lee rigby verdict,he said there is no such thing as a moderate or extreme muslim,you either a muslim or your not a muslim he said simple as that, i cant stand choudary, but i agree with him on that score,choudary also said on newsnight that the majority of muslims in the uk agrree with him when it comes to sharia law and the takeover of the uk by muslims but are to scared to say that because they fear being branded extremists,we all know choudarys disgusting and dangerous views which he spouts out on a regular basis,he does not hide that,what should worry us all is the muslims who pretend to be moderate muslims but agree with choudarys idealogy who smile at us then when are backs are turned call us dirty kaffirs and filthy infidels.
My copy of the Qur’an was given to me by an Imam who I used to have some friendly debates with. His point was the same though – there are no fundamentalists, extremists, hard liners etc etc, only Muslims and non Muslims.
The trouble is that the Fascist left who are some of the most subconsciously racist people in the UK view & judge everything from their own Western perspective. They are incapable of understanding that different cultures see life in a very different way, and they run into conflict when dealing with concepts they can’t understand.
I hesitate to make any comments at the moment, given my last attempt. Nevertheless, on the subject of Christianity in general, I have to repeat what I’ve said many times; namely, it’s not enough to be a bit nice. Only those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will stand a chance of getting to Heaven. If I remember the Bible correctly, those who have no knowledge of the Bible and of Jesus’ coming, they can’t be condemned, but those of us who have been told of his coming and his sacrifice to give us, yes give us, salvation, then those who reject him, those who vilify him, those who plot against him, are unable to reach Heaven. Just don’t say on Judgement day you didn’t know. For what it’s worth, I’m not confident I’ll be one of the fortunate, but I really hope and pray I don’t have to spend eternity with socialists and muslims.
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
John 14:6
‘If Jesus is just a remarkably good person whose example we ought to follow’ According to CS Lewis, this is the one thing about Jesus we cannot say.
‘A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice.’
Lewis was speaking from the perspective of a believer so the choice he is referring to is. Either he (Jesus) was mad or he was god manifested as man.
Surely the atheist should ask.
Is the message ,ie ‘turn the other cheek’ ,made less valid by the messenger believing he is Napoleon or does it remain the same?
Congrats. on making a meaningful contribution by the way.
The perspective of a believer couldn’t be that he was either mad or wicked could it?
Surely mad or bad both fall in to the category ‘not the son of god’.
I think the point that Lewis was making was that Christianity was more than just doing good deeds, including a belief in the supernatural and an acceptance of the word, which would be at odds with the BBC’s preferred (vicar of dibley) style of Christianity
I could be wrong though I’m no expert on C.S.Lewis ( I read the ‘Perelander’ trilogy many ,many years ago) or a Christian.
Bono has recently said the same about Jesus. Reported in the Daily Mail though, not on the BBC.
I have to say I’m not a fan of Bono either musically or as a person. His tax ‘efficient’ schemes while expecting governments to spend our money on projects he won’t is disgraceful.
Brian Johnson was very funny when he had a go at him, and he’s right – who goes to a rock concert to be lectured and Hectored?
But the funniest of all is a story about Bono writing to his hero Frank Zappa and inviting him to record a duet with him. Back came the reply, and you can imagine the fevered opening of the envelope to find:
Dear Bongo
No.
Will INBBC take this up, or keep quiet about the Muslim Brotherhood and its al-Jazeera connections?
“Tony Blair’s Faith Foundation charity advisors ‘linked to Muslim Brotherhood’ – a group he himself condemned as pursuing ‘values that contradict everything we stand for’”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blairs-faith-foundation-charity-advisors-linked-to-muslim-brotherhood–a-group-he-himself-condemned-as-pursuing-values-that-contradict-everything-we-stand-for-9259397.html