The BBC’s head of religious programming, a Muslim called Aaqil Ahmed, who was renowned for producing pro-Muslim programmes at C4, has finally struck. He has made the case for lessening the amount of Christian programming on the BBC and is insisting on Islam, oh, and other religions of course, to have a higher profile on the BBC.
Not sure how Muslims and Islam could have a higher profile given that the BBC fills just about every programme with material designed to reassure us that Islam is peaceful and tolerant and that Muslims are marvellous people or to make excuses for them when they aren’t so marvellous.
In March Ahmed put out this programme…
The Battle For Christianity (Tuesday 22 March, BBC One, 10.45pm) examines the reasons behind a rise in popularity in Christianity in the UK in a documentary which shows how confident, assertive faith is replacing traditional churches in the UK.
Now you might think he was just putting out a programme on Christianity and that as a Muslim that shows he is tolerant and inclusive….but what is the reality behind that programme? This gives the clue to his real motive…
Migration to Britain from Africa in particular has brought versions of Christianity that are more assertive than the Christianity that most Britons have grown up with. The assertiveness of these different forms of Christianity are often at odds with more liberal beliefs around issues such as same sex marriage and blasphemy.
Alongside this growth in a more muscular Pentecostalism, immigration from Eastern Europe and from Poland in particular has also seen an upsurge in Catholic numbers, with some Churches now offering services in a variety of languages.
What does this mean for the rest of society?
Well it means Christianity is not in terminal decline as many would have us believe, it’s just different now and it’s growing. It also means we have to confront two big issues. One is our chronic lack of religious literacy in society. If there are more diverse forms of Christianity growing alongside other faiths then can we continue with our blind ignorance and relegation of faith and believers?
Linked to this is the second point: if amongst this growth is a more assertive Christianity with conflicting views with society on homosexuality, for example, then how do we deal with this?
This battle between liberalism and orthodoxy is not just one confined to Christianity, it’s one that involves all faiths and because of that involves everyone whether you are a believer or not.
In other words Ahmed is in fact using Christianity, the advent of more muscular, fundamentalist Chrisitianity coming in with immigration, to lay out a case for the UK being more open to, and tolerant of, intolerant and oppressive religious regimes such as the one that Islam would impose upon you….we are being softened up to accept conservative Islam, an extreme ideology in a liberal, western democracy, as normal.
Warsi, insanely put in charge of ‘faith matters’ by the craven Tories, used the same tactic….supporting and campaigning for more tolerance of more hardline Christian beliefs in the knowledge that if that is taken up then no one can then object to fundamentalist Islam and its adherents being allowed to flourish openly in the UK.
Trojan Horse? Just maybe.
The case might be made for more controls on immigration and the prevention of people with such views from coming here…maybe Trump was right…why allow your country to be overrun with religious fundamentalists who want a return to the Dark Ages?
This is the same guy who blew his department’s budget on a documentary on the Ottoman Empire. He mishandles it so badly, the Current Affairs department had to take it off his hands
There was also another incident when he was new to the department. Instead of the traditional Christmas Eve service, he wanted to repeat the previous year’s. “It’s all the same songs anyway”, was his reasoning. Both incidents reported by Private Eye, but no-one at Auntie sees a problem with him
Even as an atheist, I can see he fails to be even handed in his decision making. Therefore a bad manager
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2013/06/questions-raised-about-the-running-of-the-bbcs-religious-affairs-department
Drip… Drip.. Drip.. The islamification of the Christian lands has up to now been achieved by utterly deceitful and underhand tactics… Not any more it seems. Those who are required by their faith to destroy and subjugate the infidels are now in full control of the dialogue.. In full control of the debate and what topics should be discussed.
Which ever way we try to accommodate or appease Islam… What ever we try and do to make them happy and feel more at home…more accepted…We are destined for domination..For eternity in hellfire. Let’s ask the yhazidis and Syrian Christians what can be done with piplomacy and appeasement. Let’s ask the yhazidis if what we need are more banners showing our solidarity with Muslims.. “LGBT against islamaphopia” or “Islam is peaceful”…
There is only one way of life allowed to exist in Islam and that set of instructions was written by Muhammad. Follow them to the letter or die. It’s as simple as that… To everyone other than those traitorous bast@rds who are actually encouraging the destruction of their own people and the annihilation of every single thing that is not Islamic
Maybe this will help?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/why-does-the-government-want-to-make-the-bbc-even-more-gay/
They are discussin g this right now on LBC.
Nobody but Clive Bull is advocating it, and even he, an atheist, would prefer NO religion on the BBC.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/670544/BBC-Too-Christian-More-Muslim-Sikh-Hindu-programmes
Clearly this is what the BBC want! That is why they put a Muslim in charge of religious broadcasting. How they hate Britain and the British people.
But won’t all this more Gays in the BBC and more Muslims on the BBC reach some sort of clashing point?
And by the way, as a licence payer, why is my money being spent on the Asian Network, there can’t be a lot of Christian stuff on there?
As an atheist I don’t really give a toss, but am seriously thinking about not paying my tv licence in future, why should I?
‘But won’t all this more Gays in the BBC and more Muslims on the BBC reach some sort of clashing point?’
In my opinion, there is going to be BIG showdown over this very issue – it will be the High Noon of western liberalism. Eventually someone will make a stand but it may be too late as I suspect a lot of western liberals wilfully ignore the problem. Eg there was a programme on R4 yesterday which was a sort of Skype phone-in from around the world on whether migration was good or bad. A very camp sounding Englishman proclaimed how wonderful it all was and how we’re all equal citizens of the world, etc. It didn’t seem to occur to him that persons of his (probable) persuasion are being thrown off buildings in some countries, by his fellow ‘citizens of the world.’
As an atheist your life will be in danger if Christian tolerance is replaced by Islam.
“As an atheist I don’t really give a toss, ”
As an agnostic I cannot agree with that view. You dont have to be a churchgoer or even a believer to acknowledge that for better or worse, our history is deeply Christian, and thus any attempt t o replace that foundation is an attack on our British culture.
No surprise the BBC is chaffing at the bit to start.
Aaqil Ahmed produced the risible The Life of Muhammad. This series venerated a man who caused massive death and hardship in his own times, never once stopping to question the death and mayhem he created.
At one point, and I kid ye not, some simpering old bat, with vacant eyes, described Muhammad’s ability to hear voices in his head as ‘truly wonderful’. No darling, people who hear voices in their heads are to be pitied.
It was as reverential as a Sunday School meeting on Jesus given to 5 year olds back in the 1950s.
It made my blood boil that it was broadcast, not in a religious slot, but at peak time, as if it were a thoughtful documentary.
Channel four conducted a more serious examination of Muhammed in Islam: the untold story, written by a real historian Tom Holland – yes, not by followers and acolytes of Islam who made the disgraceful eulogy on BBC.
The difference in reception? The BBC series was watched by Muslims all over the world and can be purchased on Amazon. The Channel four program? The press viewing had to be cancelled because of threats from Islamists, it was broadcast once and then had to be buried to ensure the safety and well being of those brave enough to make it.
Aaqil Ahmed is doing his job.
Yes but its not as if Channel Four arent just as much on board with the Globalist project and keen to spread anti British sentiments as the BBC…
Islam the Untold Story
Let’s put this baby to bed and just say the BBC should not produce any religious shows or programmes whatsoever. Anyone have a problem with that?
Alan, you’re wrong.
“Migration to Britain from Africa in particular has brought versions of Christianity that are more assertive than the Christianity that most Britons have grown up with.”
And southern India too!
Why do you think I keep raising the issue of Creationism in some of my comments? It’s because, whilst you’re preoccupied with Islam and the dangers of that ideology, your so-called immigrant African and Indian Christian “friends” can do no wrong.
There is trouble bubbling under!
The immigrant Christians I work with (African and Indian) are subscribed to American-style Christianity. It doesn’t take long, as an atheist, to realise they dismiss science as an art form rather than a source of facts and that the Earth is only 6000 years old. They intend to rid the teaching of certain fields of science from the school curriculum!
“The assertiveness of these different forms of Christianity are often at odds with more liberal beliefs around issues such as same sex marriage and blasphemy.”
I can’t see why you part-highlighted this sentence because the operative word is actually “assertiveness” which is something I have been warning people about for a long time. The Christian immigrants I work with – even though they know I’m an atheist – continue to invite me to their churches (one in Leicester, one in Derby) and give me gifts which originate in the USA (Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, 1300 Harmon Place, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55403).
They are benign in their approach, but if you (and all the other Christians here) believe that their intentions are purely good, then you are as naïve as the citizens of Troy.
If you fear Sharia Law, then you should fear imported twisted Christianity.
Edward, that post is as good a case, as I’ve ever seen, for reopening the asylums.
And stop voting yourself up, you ‘king moron.
How do I vote myself up? Do you mean ‘like’ my own post?
The answer is to stop importing them , immigrants and their religion .
Simples
If you fear Sharia Law, then you should fear imported twisted Christianity.
Yes, yes of course, all that Christian gender segregation, FGM, industrial-scale child rape, arranged marriages, honour killings, bombings, beheadings, slaughtering other sects of their own religion, driving out religious minorities, head-to-toe coverings for their women etc etc etc
Now take your tablets and drink your cocoa….
I was thinking along the same lines, migration from head choppers or the risk of being invited to church, it’s a tough call.
johnny by sheer coincidence there was a feature on this morning’s Victoria Derbyshire programme about this very subject. American Evangelism is mentioned towards the end of the discussion [1:28:15].
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07bq4jc/victoria-derbyshire-16052016
[@ 1:10:25]
Take a look. You might learn something.
Learn something? From Victoria Derbyshire? What, that’s impartial and balanced and isn’t economical with the truth or historical fact?
I’m sure there might be one or two snippets to be found in her one hour and ten minutes. However, the prospect of sifting through a towering dungheap of vile, stinking bias to find them does not appeal, strange though it may sound.
P.S. Used to listen to her on Five Live – that was my first awakening to BBC bias.
Edward Wood-Wood.
You`re confusing an animist variant of voodoo “christianne E.T” with the thing that we in the West used to know-indeed a few of us still do.
Black African animist and pagan practices on witchcraft is an ancestral cult, as far removed from the Tanakh and the Gospel as it is possible to be…if you`ll do us the courtesy of sticking with what Jesus said( and not what Al Shabab or the nutters in the Lords Resistance Army would tell you,you gull-struck ninny).
No Ed…this Peckham perversion of some syncretist crap that blags from nature worship, ancestor excavations and a wipe of the arse on an old colonial bible is NOT a faith as we`d know it…and the “djinn” aspect of deliverance is a Muslim pretext to abuse and kill kids or women.
So we`re talking Africa meets Islam meets The Exorcist videos meets animism-and if a Belgian or French Catholic passed by, then lob in the Catholics too if you will.
But Christian they ain`t…so aim your fire and ire at Islam will you?
The Church is disembowelled and supinely carving surrender-it`s really no problem to you, even IF its Victoria Derbyshire who insists it is…
After all-she just MAY be wrong…
That’s the longest (and possibly the most incoherent) example of the No True Scotsman fallacy I’ve ever seen.
To you maybe starvin`.
But “No True Christian ” would recognise “witchcraft” as anything to do with the 21st century…we leave that to the likes of Stornoway Social Services and the BBC, as well as Islam.
That`ll be enough for you lad…hopefully a bit more coherent for you…and unless you give me some scriptural basis( Jewish OR Gospel), I`ll just assume you`re an aimless windup in search of a rumble.
Jesus is your answer to all further questions, I`d suggest-but not in Peckham or Moss Side eh?
“But “No True Christian ” would recognise “witchcraft” as anything to do with the 21st century…”
So you are the ultimate arbiter in all matters theological? That’s quite a claim.
Marvin, if you are interested and doubt chrisHs opinion, have a look in the Bible. Replete with warnings against witchcraft, divining, and general messing about with evil spirits.
It’s all to do with the Christian belief that Jesus is true God from true God and thus His teaching of “love the Lord your God and love your neighbour” is held by Christians to be His supreme teaching.
Witchcraft and casting spells to usurp God and to seek spiritual power and control over other people is not in line with that supreme Christian teaching.
Dont take my word for it, a good Bible, some heartfelt prayer and something like an alpha course will be a better source of enlightenment than me.
“Replete with warnings against witchcraft, divining, and general messing about with evil spirits.”
It’s also replete with warnings about what to eat, what clothes to wear, what crops to plant and how to have your hair cut. There is no evidence that ‘evil spirits’ exist so the warnings can safely be ignored.
There are thousands of different Christian denominations. Estimates range from 20 000 to 40 000. They all claim to be the one true way. They can’t all be right but they could all be wrong which is a much more likely scenario.
I wouldn’t be so sure about the absence of evil nor of people whose spirits are evil or are influenced by evil in the world.
Many of the things you mention are the Jewish law, not followed by Christians.
The vast majority of the wolds Christians are either Orthodox, Catholic or Anglican.
The proliferation of sects you mention are Protestant and vary in their interpretations of faith, bible and Christian tradition. Look deeper, with an open mind.
Which rather suggests that god or the writers of the bible believed in witchcraft, divining, and evil spirits.
Of course the writers of the Bible acknowledged the existance of those human and supernatural phenomena. Believed in? No, opposed as harmful to human wellbeing? Yes.
Excellent.
The trouble is that despite Edward’s clear dislike of assertive American form of Christianity, the adherents keep inviting him to church, and probably feeding him as well as they can. That’s what all Christians do. We recently have had a Christian family from Cameroons. The lady makes the most wonderful cakes, despite crying “Amen and praise the Lord”, whenever she thinks the minister has been very good. At first we were astonished at this form of interjection, and assertion of Christian faith.
But she does make the most lovely cakes I’ve ever had. She and her husband are very kind and decent people. Apart from slicing cakes, I’ve seen no evidence to chop heads.
And ofcourse the Chief Constable of Manchester, a Muslim, thinks it should be illegal to offend religious people. He means Muslims of course. Muslims are continuously offending everyone else in the meantime. And not just offending, but killing them in the thousands.
Why are Muslims given such high profile jobs, with power over non-Muslims? By and large, most Muslims are sub IQ, and so qualify for positive affirmation. But that should not apply to people who wish us harm.
I really hope Trump gets elected. It will put a huge strain on our politicians, who have enabled Islam to the point where Muslims can even slit throats of soldiers of the Crown, while in England, and get away with it. They will have to make a choice – America, the West (Australia & New Zealand inc) and Nato, or the caliphate. Cameron is hoping for a Muslim PM. That can only happen in his lifetime, if he does a “Merkel” on Britain.
The very premiss of these appointments is the real problem. The BBC Head of Religious Programming should not be a religious person of any kind in the first place, in the same way that the Political Editor should not be a political activist of any kind, or that the Business Editor should not be a prominent business person.
Aside from the obvious problems of impartiality, appointments such as these lead to religious programmes instead of programmes about religion, political programmes instead of programmes about politics, feminist programmes instead of programmes about sex equality etc. etc.
The problem Joel is that these appointments appear a deliberate and calculated attempt to deny the truth that Christian religion provides the underpinning of the vast bulk of the culture of these islands.
Even the “enlightenment”, modern atheism and Islam itself can only really be understood as reactions to the progressive features of Christianity.
The sources of law, based on Christian precepts, high cultural art and music….Christian….remember music and representations of the human form are strictly forbidden in some religious world views.
Our major universities and schools were originally Christian foundations, much of the science that challenged literal readings of the bible was pioneered by Christian scholars.
Hospitals were also originally Christian foundations preceding the modern welfare state by centuries.
Even the notion that God and state are seperate…..is a Christian concept.
Christianity provides a bed rock, a set of standards of morality and behaviour and a set of merciful releases from guilt and chances to clean the slate, forgiven. Notice the shrill, unforgiving, bullying nature of trial by media? That’s the opposite of Christian justice.
The current “progressives” want to pretend none of this matters, that a nations bedrock can be painlessly reshaped to accommodate both atheism AND Islam….valuing both equally and expecting both to equally respect each other…..in a vacuum created by the pretence that over a millennium of Christian history can be swept away, at no cost or effect to the society standing on that bedrock. And that’s before we consider where Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists et al will fit in to the new Britain…..her indigenous people stripped of their ethnic and cultural identity with the BBC showing the way with its propaganda and appointments made to disrupt as much as possible the traditional fabric of this nation.
What’s happening of course is really an attempt to subvert the old and impose something new.
But do they really know what the “new” will be?
Dangerous, dangerous game, especially when the protagonists include resurgent, aggressive, expansionist worldviews like Islam and culturally Marxist atheism.
Of course the BBCs religious editor should be a Christian. Christianity is at the core of British culture. The British culture that the BBC should be representing…..or should change its name to something more representative of its new direction.
I agree with all your points apart from the first sentence of your last paragraph, and to be honest I’m struggling to think of a good argument against it! I guess it comes down to what we think the BBC ‘should’ be. Personally I believe the BBC should ‘reflect’ rather than ‘represent’ our culture. A subtle difference, but perhaps one that could increase objectivity and reduce bias?
How about it would be illegal to discriminate against someone in a job because of their religion. Game, set,match.
How about it wouldn’t be if the exemptions in the equalities act were invoked, the job description and title specified Christian affairs and a seperate non Christian religious affairs post created.
That exemptions exist is beyond doubt…for confirmation, see the debate on curry chefs, or Imams, or even the post of UK head of state.
embolden
Its not often ones sees the central role of Christianity in Western civilisation put so well. Even Atheism has no existence except as a questioner of Christianity. That is why so many atheists are fully paid up members of Theological societies.
Almost all charitable societies are Christian in origin, or mimic Christian principles. However, without Jesus, they become destructive.
Universities, hospitals, ambulance brigades, Salvation army, universal education, coops, SOBS, Relate, Street Angels, Samaritans, the list is endless. I list these with some trepidation, as Christians should not claim as their own.
embolden, if Britain was a Christian country by consent then I would agree with you, but as it is, Britain is a Christian country by imposition – a label imposed on the people by those in power. Therefore, it is no surprise to find that almost all aspects of British society would carry that same Christian label, simply because there was no alternative. Christian in name but not necessarily in nature.
The idea that agnosticism and atheism did not exist in the past in any meaningful sense is a naïve view and wishful thinking on behalf of the religious. There is no way of knowing historically what proportion of the population were non-believers or agnostics because the state would not have recognised such people. They weren’t allowed to exist.
In the end, logic and reason prevail in Britain. Britain is a democratic and free country in spite of religion – not because of it. Christianity in Britain has evolved in keeping with common sense values rather than values taken from The Bible. For that, at least, I have respect for Christianity; the religion I was born into.
Edward I am afraid you are talking through the wrong end of your torso. I am a Christian and that was not imposed on me by any government.
Most of the traditional values of Great Britain came from Christianity and the bible.
Edward seriously, why do you post on this site ?
“Edward seriously, why do you post on this site ? ”
Is this a purely Christian site? I thought we were opposed to the sort of one-sided “party line” that the BBC is so guilty of.
I think he makes some good points. Christianity might have been the source of some of our founding principles but we’re going to have to find another source in due course because European people are not going to continue to believe in what is effectively superstition for much longer. We’re not going to successfully oppose creeping Islamism by keeping Christianity on artificial life support.
Good luck to those who choose to continue in their belief but, IMO, it’s all primitive mumbo jumbo which appeals to people who can’t cope with the concept of death being final.
Presumably as an atheist Maria you know what you do not believe in.
Apart from self, I would love to know what atheists believe in.
Seemingly from research published widely in the newspapers today a shorter life!
“Apart from self, I would love to know what atheists believe in.”
Education, science, rational thought and, in my case, music. I don’t need a deity to feel that life is worthwhile.
With regard to “self”, which sounds a little snide to me, Christianity and self are not mutually exclusive – I’ve met many Christians who appear to have a very high regard for themselves.
The Christian Faith includes an emphasis on the salvation of individual souls.
Humility is a virtue in Christianity and excessive pride a sin.
non of “education, science, rational thought and music” are incompatible with Christianity….thank God.
Would agree to a large degree here, embolden. But if you`re saying that education, reason , science and music can`t be co-opted by the Christian, I would beg to differ.
Christianity steeps all four above, I myself came to faith via reason alone…Pauls letter to the Galatians being my Magna Carta( along with Luther, so I learned later.
Education has two meanings in the Latin, both of which imply a Christian imperative to learn and lead, seek and sow the seed of trth, faith and that God can be found through the one-off gift of Jesus Christ.
Science of course has the likes of Newton, Hooke, Faraday, Maxwell and near-on all the greatest minds up and until the piracy that Darwin was used for…he himself seemed to have been an agnostic, who came out against God late in life with the death of his daughter-and who could gainsay THAT tragedy. Science turned against us after 1859, maybe.
As for music-whether its Bach or Prince, Bowie or Vaughn Williams…music is Gods extra dimension to something we can only guess at-certainly,the whole culture of arts, music, film and books etc are His, should we require and practice that.
I know this isn`t Biased BBC stuff-but the prophet sees the signs of the times, reads the runes in the light of His revealed word and attempts to create something beautiful for HIm.
It`s all His…we`re just the milkmen and paper boys…MLK and the likes of Szasz, Schumacher, Gove etc are all in that tradition.
Yes individual souls are sought, but I prefer the Billy Graham collective-we really need the numbers, and the likes of CS Lewis are tragic losses to the culture.
Don`t think Gods too bothered about sin or humility-the emergence of Gods emetic, corrective and purgative-call it what you will-means that it`s all hands to the pump and on the deck…we can`t do any worse than being in orange jumpsuits-we need a new creation and quickly(Galatians 6.15).
This site is such a place, sanctified by many of us…and he loves his atheists too-far better to deal with than indifference and agnosticism.
Here`s the atheist ten commandments anyway for our friends above.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/12/19/living/atheist-10-commandments/
Like the fact that the worlds best brains can`t top the Golden Rule…how dare they crib from the Cross though eh?
Mr Mallard, I am an atheist so I can tell you what I believe. I believe in tolerance of all religions, but only as far as they show tolerance for other people’s beliefs. And only as far as they remain moral, decent, legal and not cruel, and if they don’t use “holy scriptures” to enslave, invade, steal or inflict their beliefs on others. I am also profoundly as against extreme atheists as extreme deists.
Many of our charitable heroes and heroines of the past did so from a Christian perspective so deserve applause. Not for their beliefs but for their kind interpretation of those beliefs.
A. My own belief however is that there is no God in Heaven smiling down on us. If there was I would accuse him of causing all the cruelty in the world. If, however, he has left it to man to be evil I would accuse him of again being cruel for not intervening to put man right. And if he doesn’t have the power to do so then He is not the all-powerful God of the bible. To me I can’t believe that he exists and was only created by man to explain things he still didn’t understand and the various beliefs in gods have grown ever since. I believe that when I die my body will crumble and my soul will stop existing at the point of death
Mr Mallard, I realised while I was typing that reply to you that I was listening to a CD of “Locomotive Music”. Works by various Strausses and other Austrian and Danish composers. Appropriate music in replying to you I feel.
Maria, I don`t think there`s any doubt that death is final, what comes after is perhaps a mystery to us all…neither you nor I KNOW for sure….I have faith in one answer, you believe in another..there is no empirical evidence either of us can use for final “proof”, we each walk our own paths.
Yes, Christianity has “provided the source of some of our founding principles”…but globally European non belief is something of an outlier and migration streams being what they are, religious belief is re emerging as an important factor and influence in European and Western society.
Islam is resistant to atheism and Christianity…but Christianity can challenge Islamic theology in a way that atheism simply can`t.
At present we are on course to Balkanisation….enclaves and quarters of cities predominantly settled by groups self defining by faith. I hope I am wrong but as I have suggested on this thread, I think that is a recipe for disaster.
“but Christianity can challenge Islamic theology in a way that atheism simply can`t.”
I don’t think it’s possible to challenge Islam for two reasons. They don’t do debate, and Christianity in the UK isn’t anywhere near strong enough.
IMO, Islam is a cult and should be emasculated or excluded. Call it a forced reformation if you like. IMO, we are heading for serious civil unrest, or worse, and when that happens, something will have to be done. There might have been time 50 years ago to lure people away from Mohammed to the more civilised words of Jesus, but I even have doubts about that. It’s gone too far for that now.
Historically Islam has always been challenged by Christianity, hence the passages in the Quran that specifically deny the essential elements of the Christian Faith….and it will be so again….it cannot be other.
Don’t underestimate Christianity’s power of resurrection……dead and buried by Stalin…now resurgent in Orthodox Russia and Catholic Poland and Hungary.
Refusal to bow to worldly power, death and resurrection are at the centre of the faith, and always will be to the end of time.
Edward, you make reasonable points that I won`t dispute further.
The point that I am trying to make is that it seems to me that a successful, peaceful and tolerant society needs an underpinning set of values that form its bedrock…historically and I would suggest at present that bedrock in Britain and the West is Christianity, with the faith tempered with reason…and vice versa. Look around the world for the contrasts.
Instability and conflict occur when the societies bedrock is itself unsuccessful, aggressive and intolerant, or that the bedrock values are being permanently contested….such as we see in multicultures, totalitarian societies or societies based on amoral market forces taken to extremes.
Build a house on sand and it will get washed away in the first flood….build it on rock and it will stand firm….as they taught me in Sunday school, a wonderfully apt metaphor for the current plight of Britain and the West.
In that respect I completely agree. Thanks for the reply.
Excellent series of posts embolden here…a graduated theology class aimed at mixed ability types ranging from the honourable and engaged-through and down to the gadflies and devils advocate types like marvin.
marvin says that I have some theological authority-not for me to say, but I do have a bible and a willingness to read and discern the “signs O the times”…near-on obligatory these days.
Alpha is as good a place as any for marv-good food, company and way more patience than the likes of me…
“If you don`t stand for something-you then fall for everything”
“Why is the west so happy to abdicate its reason and tradition as lived out in peacetime-only to require and encourage a Muslim alternative whose history has no regard for history…only war and conquest”…both are paraphrases, but you get the points.
Thanks chrisH, your final points are the crux of the matter……..
“Why is the west so happy to abdicate its reason and tradition as lived out in peacetime-only to require and encourage a Muslim alternative whose history has no regard for history…only war and conquest”…both are paraphrases, but you get the points.”
I can only assume that the secularist and/or atheist idea that “all religion is the same” ….despite all evidence to the contrary…..has mesmerised the minds of many in the west.
Embolden – My personal belief is that Western society has generally become fairly decadent in that life in the West is almost ” too easy”. People generally want very little for physical goods and this almost becomes an end or a religion in itself. Thinking about your own mortality probably reduces the amount of pleasure you might gain from your plasma telly!
I think in the past where there were high infant mortality rates, war famine and disease (all the Malthus stuff). Death was never too far away and I think this forces many people to ponder their own mortality and become naturally drawn to religion as this gives people hope in hopeless situations.
I think it is easy to scoff at all the mumbo jumbo/religious symbolism but once you are stripped bare of everything else who are we to judge people if in a desperate situation they take comfort in a belief’s that transcends the usual norms and boundaries of life.
At this point however I believe most mainstream religions (including Christianity) tend to diverge from Islam as it appears that its main thrust appears (even in their scriptures) to be about conquering ( rather than persuading) In contrast to most of the the other religions who I think are more interested in creating a society in harmony. Not blowing themselves up so they can avail themselves of 72 Virgins!
I think on the whole a sense of spirituality (if well directed) is a good thing (I dont currently go to church) And certainly promotes a sense of cohesion within society. It just seems a pity to me that people cannot find this unless their backs are against the wall.
So Edward, please be kind enough to inform us what prompts you to post on this site ?
Thanks .
Don’t worry about going back to the Dark Ages Alan. You’re already there.
Kikuchiyo – what a wit you are. Well you’re half-way there anyway.
Got a programme idea for the BBC.
A remake of Moses leading his people out of slavery in Egypt.
Moses would of course be played by Nigel Farage and Pharoah by either Juncker or Merkel in drag.
The closing of the sea could be portrayed as the inevitable washing away of the EU.
Any one think they might take it up and broadcast it on June 22nd?
Perhaps following a screening of Brexit – the movie, which, if you have not already watched it through I can only ask why not?
60022Mallard
Any comment from Al Beeb’s trolls on this excellent movie yet ?
Over to Al Beeb …………………………………
Thread getting old a bit. Still.
From Lord Sacks lecture “Has Europe Lost Its Soul?”
That is by way of introduction. Let me begin with a striking passage from Niall Ferguson’s recent book, Civilisation. In it he tells of how the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences was given the task of discovering how the West, having lagged behind China for centuries, eventually overtook it and established itself in a position of world pre-eminence. At first, said the scholar, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had. Then we concluded it was because you had the best political system. Then we realised it was your economic system. “But in the past 20 years, we have realised that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West has been so powerful. The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this.”
The Chinese scholar was right. The same line of reasoning was followed by the Harvard economic historian, David Landes, in his magisterial The Wealth and Poverty of Nations. He too pointed out that China was technologically far in advance of the West until the 15th century. The Chinese had invented the wheelbarrow, the compass, paper, printing, gunpowder, porcelain, spinning machines for weaving textiles and blast furnaces for producing iron. Yet they never developed a market economy, the rise of science, an industrial revolution or sustained economic growth. Landes too concludes that it was the Judeo-Christian heritage that the West had and China lacked.
http://www.rabbisacks.org/has-europe-lost-its-soul-transcript-of-lecture-delivered-at-the-pontifical-gregorian-university-rome/
The Chinese scholar, understandably, is concerned only about matters pertaining to industrial and scientific prowess, and the resultant power that follows from it. But the Christian faith, particularly the Reformation gave rise to also the separation of state from the church, human rights movements, liberal democracy, abolition of slavery, the compassionate treatment of defeated and wounded soldiers, the Red Cross, social services, universal education, and much more.
There is this idea flying around that the Abrahamic religions are alike in the broad sense.
Apart from the trivial statement that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are from the common stable of Abrahamic faiths, there is nothing else in common. The most fundamental difference between Christianity and all other faiths is this
All other faiths pertain to life, laws and customs in this world.
The fundamental reason why the separation of church and state, and its attendant child, secularism, arises in Christianity, is because Christianity does not pertain to this world – it is in fact an otherworldly religion. It is because of this, that only in Christianity that separation of the secular from the divine is even possible. In fact it is necessary from the Christian point of view, for this separation to be doctrinally insisted, or any ostensibly Christian nation would fall, devoured by the wolves that prowl. Therefore Christians like Wycliffe, John Locke and others, invented the separation of church and state. Christianity requires a secular state, invented it, and supports its practice. Both Judaism and Islam require no such separation. The same holds for Eastern religions. In Buddhism there is no other world, therefore the distinction does not even arise.
All other religions are very much of this earth, and thus fall prey to the wolves. Islam too will fall. That much is certain, for it is too heavily involved in this world.