Middle of the week and the BBC excelling itself on pushing the “Remain is ahead in the Polls” and “Vote Remain for Jo Cox”. The floor is yours!
MID WEEK OPEN THREAD
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- JohnC Nov 17, 01:11
Weekend 16th November 2024
Woman found dead in car boot named by police https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c39nwjygjgro ‘Harshita Brella, 24, from Corby, Northamptonshire, was found by officers… - pugnazious Nov 17, 00:10
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https://x.com/darrengrimes_/status/1857550474548809985 - StewGreen Nov 17, 00:10
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@pugnazious did you get that the BBC reporter could have opened her report by saying she had had a pervert… - StewGreen Nov 16, 22:35
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The Beeboid reporter seems to bury that the pervert has a Muslim name “He had an accent I didn’t recognise,… - Loobyloo Nov 16, 22:27
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The Telegraph is odd – almost like it wants to wind up its readers – has done hit job articles…
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Two Brits ordered to leave France for “orchestrating” violent clashes between migrants and police in Calais
Another news item that seems to have slipped past the BBC. The Daily Telegraph reports that two British activists have been ordered to leave France after their involvement in the ongoing riots in Occupied Calais – the riots that have been deliberately under reported in this country. The two are accused of being activists with the notorious No Borders group, which has previously received free publicity puffs on the BBC website.
An interesting comment from one of the accused:
Outside court, Mr Jones warned that if Britain voted to leave Europe on today’s (Thursday) referendum “will make the situation ten times worse” in Calais among migrants. “If they suddenly sense that their rights of abode (sic) in the UK are affected by this, then the position of desperation that they are in will only be exacerbated.”
When big business, international bankers, currency speculators, anarchists, discredited former prime ministers, President Barry and dead Labour MPs are all singing from the same hymm sheet… well, it sort of tells you which way to vote, doesn’t it?
A little piece of non-referendum bias for you.
Toady R4 around 7.30am this morning.
Within 5 minutes of each other we had
1. A trailer for a 30 min documentary about Sylvester, who had a minor top 10 hit once over 30 years ago. But the key information is that he was black and gay. Tick tick.
2. News of a poll that a large % of LGBT people ‘hide their sexuality’. Whatever that actually means. Tick.
Yes, its just another LGBT propaganda fest day on the biased BBC. Funny thing is, I am old enough to remember ‘You Make Me Feel Mighty Real’ on original release. It was a pretty good disco track. And he/she was a bit odd. But straight/gay/anything in between, nobody gave a toss. We danced to it anyway. Yet 30+ years later, the biased BBC student reporters do. Obviously no agenda, then.
Do they ever have programmes about people BECAUSE they are straight?
With you there sluff.
A great record with a weird video-we all knew he was gay/tranny or a drag act…New yorks discos scene and how blacks manifested it all was a curious byline in the NME over here…it was NOT…repeat NOT a political cause to be co-opted by confused and condescending liberal oafs who`d not have been fit to lick his thigh highs.
Am sick of this-his politics were of no interest to anybody-we loved the record, were reflective when he died to little fanfare-and for the liberal elite to dig him up and create yet another surfboard of their privileges to put a sticker on is truly disgusting.
If Marvin Gayes estate(who are they then?) can pimp off ” Got to Give It Up”…if Randy Californias pale descendant of a relative can force Page abd Plant into a courtroom…how come Sylvesters old chiffon sweeper can`t coin in copyright claims against ripping off the dead for entertainment-the BBC have NO right to do this.
Grave robbing, cadaverous bastards who`ll take a corpse and dress it as Barbara Cartland for a few dappa laffs…NO!
I have asked a lot of people why they are voting exit. The ones I know well ,very working class, tell me they are voting so ‘they can get the blacks out’.
I would suggest this is entirely the sentiment that Farange is attempting to Capitalise on with his posters showing refugees who have absolutely nothing to do with membership of the EU. They ,as Im sure you know , have a specific status under a global 1953 Convention.
Although it is a separate issue, we would be able to leave the cursed Human Rights Act, which has caused so many problems for us in the UK.
The problem is not necessarily with the Act itself but the way the wholly corrupt Tony B Liar implemented it into UK law.
Remind me again, what does his wife do for a living ?
“we would be able to leave the cursed Human Rights Act”
WE could but we would first have to vote in a Government with the courage to face the opprobrium of th e self righteous, and not only withdraw from the ECHR, but review our OWN 1998 Human Rights Act .
Vote Leave. Remember Bob Crow, Manon, its what he would have wanted.
Who cares about Bob Crow hypothetical vote. Was he important?
Refugees have a special status – yes. The problem is that the European Union’s laws for the protection of the Schengen area and the claiming of asylum in the first safe country are not being carried out, so genuine refugees are not receiving the help and support they need. Indeed, countries who attempt to enforce European law in this respect, such as Hungary, have been condemned by other states, notably Germany. This is what I assume the ‘breaking point’ poster refers to, but perhaps I’m reading too much into it and it’s just ‘racism’.
A sure sign of BBC bias. The omission to discriminate between refugee status and economic migrant has not been at issue in this charade.
“The ones I know well ,very working class”
Are some of them your best friends?
Manon : ‘The ones I know well ,very working class, tell me they are voting so ‘they can get the blacks out’.’
– I don’t believe you. Either your initial statement about you working class contact is a lie or your subsequent revelation of their supposed views is a lie – or both. No one believes any brexit vote will have that effect and nor do you. No one really speaks that way these days and very few ever did. One wonders the reaction of your imaginary working class racialists, whom you know ‘very well’, when you pipe up about the special refugee status under the ‘1953 Convention’ – must spark quite a ruckus – in your own imaginary dream space.
I don’t believe you either. If they knew you as well as you say you know them, they certainly wouldn’t be saying that to you.
No actually they dont believe we should take refugees. Somewhat dumfounded that Boris wants to cut European migration in favour of African and Indian migration and legitimise illegal imigration.
Still voting for Brexit though and like the site clueless as to the outcome.
Manon, people vote for all sorts of reasons, good or bad. Is it not possible that some Remain voters will also not like Black & Minority Ethnics but be very happy living among Poles and eastern Europeans?
Fair comment.
Manon, I suggest you publish your research on working class attitudes in a peer reviewed journal.
Or just tell Laurie Taylor c/o The Corduroy Court of Public Opinion at Brokeback College.
That sad poltroon believes anything like this-you could be a Doctor with matching elbow patches and a whiff of old dope if you use a few bigger words…say racialist to racist…immigrant to migrant.
Not gimmiegrant though…one letter too many.
Nice to have helped you Doctor Mocca…now about that pain in our necks!
I grew up in an area which had a fairly large West Indian community and many years on I still keep in touch with quite a few of my mates who came from that community. Without exception they are all voting out – perhaps they all “want the blacks out” as well.
To busy researching something else at the mo.
It would be ironic if, in your dedication to maintaining a constant stream of ‘research’ here all day, you ran out of time to vote. Still, stamp foot hard enough and Dave may make an exception. Too.
Interesting. Manon is normally one of the night-shifters. Amazing that today, of all days, is the one he has come into “work” during the day – now who would require him to do an extra shift to push their propaganda? Hmmm, the BBC comes to mind. Rather proves the point.
You regard it as propaganda because it doesnt fit in to your worldview which is essentially religious. I just use facts , which whilst at times is incovenient for some, nevertheless proves in the end to be a more valuable yardstick. Ill leave it to you to pray at the alter of Boris now!
You libel the working classes.
Just like the Labour Party.
Not really. I could only libel the working classes if I suggested all working class people were the same as the ones I spoke to. As it is the sample size was very small to generalise ,notwithstanding the difficulty in defining what working class actually is. As for the Labour party, Im not a member or a follower. Good to see the issue of class being dicussed though.
You’ve just made that up. Or maybe they were winding you up. Either way, I’m not interested in your childish opinions.
I have asked a lot of people why they are voting exit. The ones I know well ,very working class, tell me they are voting so ‘they can get the blacks out’.
Utter bollocks, the vast majority of poor white people in the UK have black family members, and plenty of half cast children to boot, so take your f-ing biased views and stick them where the son don’t shine. Here is what your beloved bBC had to say on the matter in 2009:
Mixed-race family rise ‘dramatic’
Nearly one in 10 UK children live in a mixed-race family, a study suggests.
It said mixed-race partnerships were now so commonplace that some ethnic groups, such as Afro-Caribbean, were expected to virtually disappear. Researchers said they believed future generations would “not see race in the way we see it”, the Observer reported.
The only person preoccupied with race on here is you , yer racist prick.
So when they say they want the blacks out they didnt really say it. Strange because i was there and you werent. But hey lets not let any facts or bumps in the road get in the way shall we.
As to your high and mighty tone I would remind you that racism on this site , particularly in respect of Muslims is legion. Funny you havent come across that either.
You sound like every other left wing sanctimonious twat that I’ve ever come across Internet wide, and quite frankly, you bore me to tears with your predictable drivel…
What race are Muslims ?
If nothing else betrays that he’s a dopey twat,’racism rowards muslims’ nails it right there
I once asked a Guardian writer why it was racist to criticise Islam. She replied that it was because many Muslims are of darker skin. I did not want to upset her by pointing out that there are many black, asian and oriental Christians who are criticised by the left.
Bring back Grammar Schools!
“It’s what Jo Cox would have wanted”.
She being a former pupil at Heckmondwike GS.
No?
reports coming in are of an almost biblical deluge in the remain heartland of London !
Roads difficult to drive down and B&Q selling DIY arks ! Might well affect the turnout there. We can only hope.
Looks like the weather in London is also putting off the Nans from voting:
Voters hampered by floods
Posted at 11:04
“Barking in east London has been badly affected by the storms. Resident Jodie Rose, 37, says her children have been unable to go to school because their house is surrounded by water contaminated with sewage so they cannot go out.
I’m sure it’s going to have a big effect on Barking voters…. My Nan is 89 years of age and she’s already said that she won’t be going out to vote.
Josie Rose
Mrs Rose said the water was knee-deep around her grandmother’s house and that the 89-year-old would not take the “risk” of going out to vote and that her disabled neighbour was similarly affected. ”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-36604817
Perhaps “Dave” will extend the voting by two days, after all a precedent has been set.
Project Fear predictions coming true – expect a plague of locusts next
Unfortunately, I imagine the Remain vote in London is largely represented in postal form, which is obviously less affected than the ‘live’ vote.
Why is it always a Biblical deluge! Surely it should be a Koranical deluge!
If at the end of all this bun throwing, if the result is that we have to remain in Europe, it is my belief that we should embrace this, and endeavour to show those who voted remain just what they have done.
We should support the formation of a European army and offer our own to it. We should abandon our nuclear deterrent and let Europe decide. We should abandon our legal system and adopt the Napoleonic code – which has in truth always had incompatibility issues.
We should rejoice over TTIP and enjoy the partly privatised NHS.
In fact we should push the thing so hard on the issues which are controversial we begin to make the remainiacs realise they voted the wrong way.
Perhaps then the gold which the government stuffed their mouths with, will begin to lose its glitter.
Thoughtful, I want a really good turnout Union-wide, because I think it is the best way of both sides accepting and being reconciled to the result. It also shows a whole-hearted commitment to democracy. Democracy wins over dictatorship or a form thereof. That’s an important message to send to the EU and, especially, worldwide at the present time.
If as it seemed to me yesterday that Remain will win (replaced by relief and hope today that Brexit may prevail), I think that we need to accept the result and play our part in Europe. Maybe not pushing for all the possible downsides that we have glimpsed (that continuing membership will entail) and that you list, but arguing debating & voting – as far as allowed – and accepting that The Project goes on.
To put it another way, Nigel Farage is going to have to turn up a lot more in Brussels & Strasbourg and be nice to his colleagues and those on the Commission and its Presidents. Let’s be good Europeans as well as Brits but don’t let us be a pushover, a mere doormat to be walked over.
All we can do then, is hope that David Cameron and the leaders of the member States are as good as their word and provide us with the agreed opt-outs in a Treaty amendment. Then, should a future UK Government seek to do away with one or more, we get to do this all over again.
What a delight that will be.
Absolutely not!
When the Conservatives won the general election did labour, LibDems, SNP etc. say “Fair cop, we’re all Conservatives now!”? Of course not!
Nigel Farrage was elected as MEP to oppose the EU, his mandate doesn’t change whichever way the referendum goes.
I doubt if more than a few percent of the ‘remains’ are in favour of ‘The Project’ – for crying out loud most of our MPs don’t know that they have no control over VAT, trade and transport and politics is supposed to be their business.
If the referendum goes to ‘remain’ then the chickens will come home to roost, the slurs and lies by Cameron make him unelectable. The public won’t forget and we may well get a new government which, as a matter of policy, will opt to leave the EU. It will have the mandate and it will leave, there will be no need for another referendum.
I’m back. Modest queue at the PS but haven’t seen one that long for some time. Would not normally reveal who I vote for in a secret ballot but it was for Leave. Woke up this a.m. and an early thought was ‘Referendum Day – are we voting to actually help save Europe?’.
In the event of a Brexit, Europe will eventually be free of the fidgetty, troublesome, quarrelsome UK
– and/or –
we will cause a process of small or greater reforms
– and/or –
we will trigger other EU Referendums in member States that may well cause ‘The Project’ to be completely abandoned, possibly to be replaced with better, more workable alternatives for the 21st Century.
Could be Win:Win all round. I hope so.
No queues at my Polling Station but I think both of the eligible voters here in my Londinistan area have already voted. I await the postal vote count.
My polling station is in a church, but what struck me as odd, is all along the road toward and past and past the polling area, each and every house had a “Remain” poster in the window….I’ve never seen that before in any election, anywhere….
That’s seriously scary. Is your area heavily populated with Europeans who are not eligible to vote? A friend just told me that he has an Albanian FaceBook friend in London who posted to all her friends that she would delete anyone who voted LEAVE! Now I’m sure we have laws about undue influence!
“My polling station is in a church, but what struck me as odd, is all along the road toward and past and past the polling area, each and every house had a “Remain” poster in the window….I’ve never seen that before in any election, anywhere….”
I noticed that outside my polling station (An old peoples home) this morning at 0730.
My Nans: Sadly no longer with us.
One lived in Wales and her husband went to work in Africa as a construction supervisor. She brought up a family on her own and was extremely lucid until she died at 96.
My other nan came from Austria in the 1930s having to leave one of her sons (my grandfather was a 2nd Marriage) to escape Hitler. She was lucid as well and said one thing I still get told by my mother. We think we have freedom because you can go to Hyde Park and say whatever you want but you Only have freedom if you can live how you want. My grandfather’s first wife was bombed during the Blitz was dug out after 3 days with a lot of dead bodies around her. She sadly died shortly afterwards.
That generation and their children (probably current nans) went though things we can never imagine. Right or wrong, they have the right to vote how the hell they want. They did’t inherit it. They earned it.
Here, here, gb! Good post.
Maybe Nans should be calling their gullible brainwashed grandchildren and persuading them not to be herded into the corral?
There is a disgusting ageism in the message that the wishes of young people matter MORE than the wishes of the older generations! They may be around for longer, but they are also naive, idealistic, ignorant, susceptible to bullying, lack historical perspective, short sighted and self centred (will this mean I cant do an Erasmus year, better vote IN)!
Wondering who to vote for at the next General Election?
What sort of qualities are required in an MP?
I was looking at the National Careers Service for some information about the daily work routine involved
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/memberofparliament(mp).aspx
attend sessions in parliament
debate issues and raise questions in parliament
vote on new laws and policies
sit on committees and attend meetings and conferences
hold surgeries and advice sessions in your constituency
take up constituents’ issues and concerns with relevant ministers
visit people in places like schools and businesses to get insight into local issues
study reports and research on relevant issues
make speeches
give interviews to the media
All seems reasonable. Mind you, I was watching the BBC coverage of the personality of the late Jo Cox and now it looks as though we need latter day saints in the role. Sadly Ghandi, Mandela Mother Theresa and now Jo Cox are no longer available. Gosh, where will we turn?
Malala perhaps?
This is the latest from political commentator Peter Kellner
“We have a mid-point prediction of an 8.5% lead for remain, or a majority of around 2.5 million of votes cast. But don’t be surprised if the gap is less than one million – or as much as four million. And if the phone polls have been systematically overstating support for Remain throughout the campaign, then a victory for Brexit is perfectly possible.”
Or he could have just said ‘how the flying f**k do I know?’
Meanwhile , Mystic Meg has come back from the grave and given her predictions: It could be leave or it could be remain. Or, the giant marshmallow sailor from Ghostbusters could trash all the ballot boxes thus nullifying the vote. Along with this her weather forecast for the day is maybe rain maybe sun maybe both. All just as valid as Kellner’s current statement.
Meanwhile , Mystic Meg has come back from the grave and given her predictions: It could be leave or it could be remain. Or, the giant marshmallow sailor from Ghostbusters could trash all the ballot boxes thus nullifying the vote. Along with this her weather forecast for the day is maybe rain maybe sun maybe both. All just as valid as Kellner’s current statement.
Kellner is, of course, married to the EU’s Baroness Ashton. So he’s bound to be impartial ……
Shouldn`t we be reclaiming this one today?
Fuck the SNP-CAP in Hand is very much how I see our self abasement under Junckers tablecloth, sniffing for crumbs.
I’ve just been to get my hair cut (some say it should have been my throat!) and my barber was telling me that over the last couple of weeks he has been tactfully asking people how they intend to vote. Out of the dozens and dozens of customers he has found ONE who intends to vote to stay in the EU. Where this 50/50 split is God alone knows.
Lobbie,
Which part of the country are you in ?
Hi Grant – I live in the West Midlands – The Black Country to be exact.
Lobbie,
I would have thought most of the indigenous there would be pretty solid Leavers !
Most definitely – and also my Indian Hindu next-door neighbours. They currently have a “Leave” poster on display and usually have a “Help for Heroes” poster around Rememberance Day.
They are pretty well integrated as you can tell! They don’t much care for you-know-who (clue = M word).
Lobster – some of the most ‘robust’ comments on Muslims I have heard have come from Hindus. I suspect that may be why they are not on the BBC very much, despite being the third largest religion in the UK.
My barber said exactly the same.
It is barber day ! Here, visiting sunny, rural Perthshire, amazingly my barber , Selcuk, is Turkish and a few weeks ago he told me he was voting Leave ! I asked him why. ” I don’t want all these bloody Turks here ” !
That must have pleased you enormously. A Turkish Delight!
I’ll get me coat …….
Lobbie,
He has a poster of Sweeny Todd on the wall and is a dab hand with a cut throat razor ! I was at the dentist today. Dentist, Keith is 40 years old and his assistant, Steph is 21. Both voting leave ! Neither SNP supporters !
On another tac – how many on here have been asked to take part in a Poll – any Poll ? No-one has ever pitched up to me or phoned me to ask my views, or anyone I know, so where do the figures come from ? I do get phone calls from India, S.Africa, the Phillipines trying to flog me products, but the phone goes down as soon as the word Global Solutions is mentioned.
Brissles – I’ve never been asked, EVER!
That is funny, I was going to post similar. I have never ever been contacted about an opinion poll. And I do not know anyone who has. Do they just make them up ?
No, never. And no-one I know has to the best of my knowledge.
Lobster, think you are the fourth on here to bring info like that with another one presenting the opposite. Then there is Manon’s poll offered earlier on this Thread. Said more about Manon, perhaps, than the EU-R outcome.
Wish I could bring good news to this party. The only place where I can offer stats from is a hobbyist web-site where it’s approx 61% Remain, 39% Leave. However, it’s a very liberal group with a handful of strong/Hard/Far Left members two of whom are quite domineering and bullying to the point of being abusive and hostile to those who do not share their views.
Of the friends I have spoken with, one a former Councillor is voting Remain, two very close friends likewise and their children will. Slightly more distant friends, again the majority are for Remain, that’s another three. I’m a bit of a standout, I think.
Wonder if More Or Less would care to look into how the BBC chooses to present its data over population rises.
Todays TWATO with Shaun Ley managed to tell us that the population rouse by half a million-again-last year.
But they chose their areas carefully-conflated the rise in the number of elderly with the number of migrants…managed to hide the birth demographics in amidst the elderly dying faster than babies are being born…but, funnily enough not in Birmingham, Bradford or Luton…but in Redcar and Durham etc.
Note too the mix and match between percentages and raw numbers-all slanted on this day of all-all designed not to frighten we giddy and skittish horses in the Augean stables, preferring instead on how well those EU doctors are looking after us in the care homes.
Utter duplicitous lies and slanting as ever from the BBC…cue More or Less…still, if we`re thick enough to vote remain, then they can stick our manure into our mouths as opposed to cleaning out the barn can`t they?
So now that Jo Cox has served her purpose to be more use dead to the political elite that she`d ever been when breathing…and the BBC can only obliquely keep the population growth in the UK quiet…and Calais remains the no-go that Jude Law and Benedict Cummberbund won“t say that it is…we`re left with -well no news really.
But we can enjoy Russell Brand, Eddie Izzard, Simon Schama manic shoutings in the Senate over all manner of protocols and procedures over there-but , hey passion has its victims…and if a load of lefty `tards can feign tears of rage and sadness for Hillary, then the BBC will happily suck on that.
Next up on TWATO-we men forcing the girls into high heels…except for the bald prat on the Money Supermarket ad who`s only doing it for Sharon Osbrone-so that`s OK…go bunion boy!
The above two stories took up at least twenty mins surely…maybe we`re better off as they strut as the rabid poodles of Brussels-because this crap over heels and not shooting in Orlando is probably even MORE brainmush and news slush puppy than their usual diabetic pus of polity.
“Bunion Boy “. LOL !
I’ll start by admitting I am a pessimist by nature. I love seeing the optimism on here but I don’t share it. I will be disappointed enough if Britain loses the vote, but if expecting a win it would be indescribably awful. I believe that with all the repeated lies from the Innards, the full-on government propaganda campaign using our money to disseminate their lies. With the BBC (and other channels) using the switch up the mics for the liars and down for the Outers trick during almost every debate. With the scum using the terrible death of one of their own unknown campaigners to push their lies. With all that and the fact they will falsify results if not going their way, I am convinced that Britain is lost, history, destroyed. I think tomorrow will be a sad day for humanity.
Demon, I understand your pessimism, and to a certain extent share it. However, all a Bremain will be is the loss of a chance, probably the last one, for an ORDERLY exit from the wreck of the ‘SS European Union.’ I don’t see it as the end of Britain as we know it. I believe Britain will still eventually leave and/or the EU will collapse anyway, it’s just that it will involve a lot more damage if we vote Remain.
Tend to agree, Demon. All the battering the people as a whole have been subjected to will probably take its toll. Then, in addition, a lot of people may well reason that ‘I don’t know which way to vote but all those people say we should stay and it will be bad if we don’t, so we might as well stay. After all, we might be able to improve things from the inside.’
A (foolish, in my view) triumph of hope over experience.
I’d agree up to a point Demon. But a win for Remain, which I expect, won’t be the end of the story. In fact just the beginning. As it did in Scotland, I think this referendum could fracture long-term party loyalties with many Leavers going to the only party that really represents them.
A lot depends upon what Leave Tories do, such as Michael Gove. (I don’t include Boris, because Boris will do what seems best for Boris.) If they go back to business as usual in the Tory party, I’m not sure those who supported Leave and watched the disgraceful antics of Cameron and Osborne will forgive them lightly.
In addition to party loyalties, a lot of other institutions may wake up with a hangover.
My FaceBook timeline is currently packed with amazingly well-funded ‘guides’, ‘Q&As’, ‘Fact Checks’ etc, all ‘complemented’ by posts discretely labelled as ‘sponsored’ or ‘suggested’. Near all seem to feel Brexit is a bad thing, so best stay safe, and stay ‘In’.
The BBC lost me years ago. But if the FT or Economist, or my MEP, expect me to go near them ever again, they are sadly mistaken.
What about the men forcing the girls into hijabs? Oh sorry, forgot that Beeb agitprop says that it their free choice, albeit mandated by the religion that believes that men will become so aroused at the sight of an ankle or a nose that they will be overcome by insatiable lust.
Just had a discussion with someone about referendums and would be grateful if someone could shed some light on this.
Several years ago, Cameron said there would be no further transfer of sovereignty to Europe without a referendum. Ignoring his lies for the time being, can anyone tell me if this promise will still be in force for future transfers, or is today’s referendum all that we are going to get, regardless of what happens next.
I’m pretty sure it is the latter, others disagree. Anyone?
Maria, have a listen to Dave on TODAY yesterday via iPlayer. He was in the 8.10am slot. I’m fairly sure in his continual babbering between the Humph trying to get simple, clear answers, that he said that if there was a UK move away from the exemptions that the EU leaders gave him there would be another referendum.
The Humph was in there like a shot and pointed out that those ‘reforms’ have not yet been legally ‘written up’ (my words). As I understand it, there has to be a formal Treaty Amendment that includes them, the most important one being that the UK is excused from being drawn into a single European State.
I also assume that a change in that opt out would involve a prior application and preparation to join the Single Currency. Unless there has been a change then that, too, would generate another Referendum.
That’s interesting. Thanks.
Sorry Maria, a politician’s “promise” carries about as much weight as the other two famous promises:
“the cheque’s in the post” and (sorry to be vulgar) “I won’t *** in your mouth”
I fear today is all over bar the shouting, so any vestiges of sovereignty & democracy we had yesterday are now already lost to Brussels. What any present or future PM says counts for nothing.
I only hope for one thing now – the youngsters who have sold us down the river get constantly reminded that when Europe burns again, as it surely will, they could well still be of conscription age….. BASTARDS!
I know about Cameron’s lies, I’m just asking about the official position, regardless of whether or not it is likely to be implemented in practice.
Well, reading between the lines that IS the official position.
The first fault line, after we know for sure if Remain have won, will be the Heads of State meeting (in the autumn?) where the UK’s ‘reforms’ are formalised. Will that happen? For the meeting: we have to get past another hiccough in the Greek debt crisis first. For the formalising: will the other Leaders try to welch on the agreement? Don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me.
Of course, if we get a miracle and it’s a Leave vote, there are even more immediate things to wonder & worry about. Who will be PM? Will Dave resign or will there be a traditional Tory coup? Will Dave try to legislate to overturn the 5year Parliament Rule and call – and try to win – an Election? Life could get quite exciting.
Forgot to mention that I would not even be surprised if, in the event of a Brexit vote, that the Conservatives immediately unify behind Dave and thumb their noses at a smouldering heap of Labour MPs on the other side of the House.
There would still be the difficult question of “What to do about George?”.
There’s always the Chilterns for him to visit, so to speak.
If it is Remain, political attention will turn to the Spanish general election on Sunday, where the King had to call another election called as they have been unable to form a government.
Financial attention of the “markets” is likely to turn fairly quickly to Italy, which has the potential to make the Greek and Cypriot crises look insignificant. Their economy has gone nowhere since 2008 and the banks are sitting on billions of Euros “worth” of non-performing loans.
your correct.
Despite the whole weight of the government and its institutions running project fear, smear and grief
the expected massive resounding confirmation of our membership is not going to happen.
The ever onward march of the EU towards its stated aims, its future failures and the realisation of remains broken promises will persuade lots of people they voted wrongly this time.
The establishment will never take the risk again.
on the up side the tories will never again be able win an election by falsely cutting the legs out from under ukip.
FT 100 soaring up by over 1 % today !
Thought it would and out of principle I refused to take the ‘free’ money on the currency market.
Be nice if the ‘city’ got a ‘bloody nose’ and Leave win.
Instead I’m looking at the retracements when reality kicks in.
Interesting article on R4 today about the unidentified corpse found on Saddleworth Moor. We were told that over 700 Britons are in mortuaries waiting to be identified. The representative of some missing persons agency was shocked that there could be so many people without relatives concerned for them. Two things sprung to mind immediately: 1. If they are unidentified, how do we know they are ‘Britons’, and 2. Could it have anything to do with record numbers of illegal immigrants entering the UK, without any form of identity papers and no relatives around to identify them? Of course, the BBC reporter didn’t ask such questions.
I listened to that Cranmer and was surprised that John Manel does not appear to know about Anglo-Indians or that people of Caucasian origin can be born & brought up on the Indian sub-continent.
Up2snuff, indeed – the detective interviewed said ‘he did not look like he came from Pakistan’ or words to that effect. Imagine if he’d said that about a Briton of Pakistani origin!
Cranmer,
Worth checking if any copies of the Beeg Eeshoo were left near the bodies
At around 6.45 today, Today sent one of their cub reporters to interview Russia’s top shock jock for 10 minutes. He reckoned that it was like being in a boxing ring with Casius Clay (how the hell would he know? Jeez, what a pussy!) Anyway, when Cub Reporter accused Shock Jock that his show was biased and inflammatory, Shock Jock retorted that the BBC was biased and inflammatory or something. Cub was bewildered! It’s stuff like that that keeps you going!
I am not too sure if this has been posted here. Please accept my apologies if it has.
Guido Fawkes Quote of the Day
David Cowling, the BBC’s head of political research, in an internal memo…
“It seems to me that the London bubble has to burst if there is to be any prospect of addressing the issues that have brought us to our current situation. There are many millions of people in the UK who do not enthuse about diversity and do not embrace metropolitan values yet do not consider themselves lesser human beings for all that. Until their values and opinions are acknowledged and respected, rather than ignored and despised, our present discord will persist. Because these discontents run very wide and very deep and the metropolitan political class, confronted by them, seems completely bewildered and at a loss about how to respond (“who are these ghastly people and where do they come from?” doesn’t really hack it). The 2016 EU referendum has witnessed the cashing in of some very bitter bankable grudges but I believe that, throughout this 2016 campaign, Europe has been the shadow not the substance.”
A very interesting quote, actions though speak louder than words especially hen from the soundings of the BBC.
The man has looked at reality but it is too late now. In truth it was always going to come down to this discord and divide. Whatever the result today the divide is there and will grow. If we stay in the EU then those that oppose this will not be reconciled. How can a honest man reconcile to the loss of his freedom even if our resident cynics think that all a people is can be delinated in terms of money.
When I was quite young I learnt that the most important thing I had was my sense that I was a free man. Free to speak my mind and free to decide who ruled and how.
Our many brainwashed young seem to have forgotten this but there are enough who have not and it is those who will fight on.
No people in history have voluntarliy ceded land or freedom to another without struggle.
For centuries my ancestors looked at those Norman castles and hated them .They knew why they were there and eventually the ruling class who relied on them became nearly as English as the rest of us.
The elite of today is different and events move so much faster. This elite Cowling frets over will have to choose soon. Become like us or become oppressors. There is no other way.
Two reasons in todays news to vote Leave
Poppy Day knife attack plotter jailed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36609694
BBC missing out the “M” word again.
German cinema complex ‘attacked by gunman’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36610068
I’m predicting the “M” word will be reported later today by other news agencies.
If you want free, unbiased, comprehensive reports tomorrow instead of the TV-tax-funded biased, selective propaganda, for one day only The Times will be free online.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/anjem-choudary-backs-remain-campaign-as-eu-protects-against-depo/
Anjem Choudary backs Remain campaign as EU protects against deportations
The bbc appear to be obeying the rules for reporting on referendum day – nothing that will influence the polls – just plenty of bubblegum journalism (in fact not much change from a normal day)
The Guardian however appears to be being a bit naughty as for some time they have had a reference to a poll, the source of which is unclear, which apparently gives the remain camp a boost?
EU referendum voters brave deluge as polls hearten remain camp
The link is still up but gives no information about the mysterious poll but if the earlier text is anything to go by it was not as poll of how people would vote but more one of if people are going to vote and a rather questionable deduction of how that might affect the result. It’s a complete crock of sh!t of course but arguably it’s not a poll of voter outcomes it’s a poll of logistics.
The sad fu@kers that they are.
Do none of you right wing `outers` not realise that if Corbyn is elected in 2020 and Britain is not in the EU it will extremely difficult for anyone to get out of the country unless they have special skills or a lot of money stashed abroad whereas if Britain stays in the EU there is a choice of 27 other countries to emigrate to
Anybody who is frightened of a marriage of the politically correct hard left and extreme Islam leading to an extreme authoritarian govt under Corbyn/Mcdonnell then a major reason why that might happen is because of the marginalisation of the right in the UK.Take out eurosceptisism and how many Tory mps would define themselves as `right wing` anymore.
I doubt it is more than 30:Davies ,Dorries, Rees Moog,Lilley,maybe Redwood,Fox,Paterson………who else?
Whereas Right Wing parties are doing very well in many EU countries because the Right have been not been stigmatised by their education,tv media and arts brigade as they have in the UK
The fact that Corbyn would have carte blanche to wreck the economy even sooner than normal if we were not in the EU makes it all the more surprising that the hard left have not recognised the possibilities of ending “Neoliberalism” (hat tip to Manon there) here in isolation to show the world how to do it and are therefore voting Leave!
‘….if Corbyn is elected in 2020’
Ha hahahaha
In a democracy parties put forward a manifesto at elections.
If enough people vote for that party usually the leader of the largest party becomes Prime Minister and they generally set out to follow their manifesto.
You may feel certain that JC will not win in 2020, but a week is a long time in politics, as we have just seen.
7C, do you really think all the lifelong Labour supporters who vote for Brexit will go back to supporting Labour for a GE?
I would thought that if Brexit lose narrowly, they will blame Corbyn. If Brexit win narrowly but UKIP stick around and bolster a Conservative vote up front pre-GE, they will blame Corbyn. And how will Stewart, Hoey & Field (sounds like a firm of lawyers!) do in their constituencies prior to a GE? In the event of a narrow Remain win or a Brexit miracle, I imagine there might be some proverbial ‘political knives’ out looking for backs and revenge.
Is not a Corbyn leadership challenge likely whatever the result? Wouldn’t put it past the Beeb to start stirring later if not sooner.
PS. I am not a Right Wing Outer. Besides, I used to play centrally or on the left in my younger days. 😉
Should the worst come to pass and we wake tomorrow to find ourselves prisoners of the Democratic Socialist Superstate of Europa it’s worth remembering who got us there. Of course, Cameron and his motley crew of mealy-mouthed betrayers share some of the blame, but reserve your greater ire for the hypocrites of those political parties that still – somehow – regard themselves as ‘the left’. Specifically, Labour, The SNP and the Green Party. This bunch of duplicitous, unprincipled morons have shown how ready they were to line up with every major City Investment firm, hedge fund, banker and financial think tank to press us towards Remain, even as the working class youth of Greece endure an EU-enforced 50% unemployment rate.
This is worth remembering. This worth never letting them forget. They sold us all out, as well as their principles, their very reason to exist. When, tomorrow (god forbid) their smug faces adorn the endlessly fawning BBC and other msm make a vow to never let those charlatans and fakes ever escape the responsibility they share for the coming catastrophe about to engulf Europe. Ask them if their 30 pieces of silver were worth it?
Labour, The SNP and the Green Party: political frauds, hypocrites and professional liars.
Is this the same Labour party that campaigned for a minimum wage for years and have done nothing but moan about it since it was introduced?
Worker’s rights my arse.
And the same Labour Party that opened the floodgates to Poland and the other succession states so that the “skilled” workers could earn that minimum wage and put our young people out of work, unable to leave home because the 8-10 Poles in a one bed flat also pushed the rent out of a normal person’s reach.
The very same Labour Party which will, immediately after the referendum (which I greatly fear Boy Dave and his ragtag bunch of hypocrites have won), start baying for more money to build more houses, schools, hospitals and roads to accommodate the gathering, growing, glowering hordes who will sure as eggs are eggs descend upon us like a plague of scarab beetles.
Laugh of the day, the BBCs essential news for young people:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/36605999/swedish-footballer-sent-off-for-farting-on-the-pitch
A gun man has been shot dead in Germany, BBC has reported it.
I wonder if I am alone in immediately ignoring the BBC report and looking immediately on the internet for other sources?
We assume that the BBC report will have been filtered.
http://www.thelocal.de/20160623/police
“Security officials told DPA that they do not currently suspect that there was a terrorist motive, and that the man was psychologically disturbed.”
Maybe not-but if Brexit-the Movie had not been made,then maybe this vulnerable young man would not have done what he is alleged to have done.
EAW issued to Martin Durkin if we remain shackled to the EU corpse.
I have just been asked a question about the referendum, and I honestly don’t know the answer.
When the results are announced, will they be broken down by area or will we just be given a grand total for the whole country? Does anyone know? Thanks.
They’ll come in, as they do in a general election, I.E. regional, with somewhere like Sunderland declaring first..
Dazed – Thanks for that!
We may have camera shots of Corbyn going/coming out of the Polling Station, and judging by his lack of enthusiasm on his Remain speeches, I wouldn’t mind betting he put a cross next to the Leave !! whose to know ?
Very bland BBC report in the ONS figures on population increase to June 2015. 500,000 in one year but in line with increases in last 10 years. So no need to worry then ! No real news story there! 335,000 of tbe increase due to net migration. A 5 million increase in 10 years is crazily high for a small crowded country. And if course many of these people have no buy-in to our culture or national story . I hope it sways people to vote Leave.
Two customers today with whom I discussed the referendum; one was a consultant who surprised me when he said he was voting Leave. I asked him what he thought about the line: “The NHS would collapse without all the eastern europeans who work in it.” His response: “It’s complete b@ll@cks.”
The second asked me which way I intended to vote; I told him and he replied: “I was going to vote Leave, until that wee lassie was murdered and I just thought things are going too crazy.” FFS!
Could an early move by Cameron be to try to form a Central Democrat Party comprising the ‘Conservative’ wets, the right-leaning and Blair Labourites, and the LibDems? That would make him very comfortable, as he would then be with his natural partners, and also sideline true Conservatives and the Corbynites. Actually, I think Cameron has already started the process by co-opting Blairites as ‘Tsar or heads of inquiries – Adonis being the latest. It would mean permanent office for the CDP. Hmm. I wonder?
Whew, what a relief. The referendum result makes my suggestion much more unlikely.
We have to remember that even if we vote Leave we still need a government to deal with the Muslim enemy within that reflects non EU migration from the past . In the Midlands the BBC (yes) reports two disturbing stories . First we have the trial of two Muslims who met one of the Brussels based Paris bombers in a park in Birmingham and gave him £3000. Then we have a Muslim who stabbed his non Muslim girlfriend 24 times in March in Sutton Coldfield when she was 37 weeks pregnant. The assailant had been goaded by his mother because of his relationship with a non Muslim . What a lovely set of people we have let into our country !
It’s not just the Midlands. National news reported the Muslim who was an Isis inspired idiot who wanted to bomb the 2014 Rememberance Day Service in London.
We never seem to get this trouble with Sikhs, Hindus or Buddhists, do we?
No, a straightforward point that defenders of the disgusting death cult seem unable or unprepared to address. The one mainstream “religion” that is unable to reform, learn or adapt.
As Mark Steyn said, I’m Islamed out. They dominate the news but nobody seems to ask why. Muslim pathologies are never out of the news but when are people going to finally decide that “enough is enough”.
We’re not there yet. Too many wets. Sooner or later it will happen. I fear for my family.
All I asked is why unlike other media outlets the BBc didn’t report on Geldoff Making abusive hand gestures.
Your Reference CAS-3877848-NWTJJ5
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In other words, “F**k off and stop annoying us with your stupid questions”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-36610409
According to his defence barrister, Babur Karamat Raja, repeatedly stabbed 40-year-old Natalie Queiroz after ‘being forced to choose between his Muslim mother’s faith and the “love of his life”.’
Well, I am sure we have all felt like that at some stage. However, it’s not the fact that this Muslim gentleman thinks the answer to his pressing dilemma is to savagely stab someone, her unborn baby and the brave souls who went to her aid, it’s more that you should go to the BBC link above.
You will see that he attempted to disguise himself by stuffing a rucksack under his jumper. Go on, have a look, is it Islamophobic to laugh at this nutter?
OT, but related, I have just had my ‘news’ update from Ch4, who seem to have grasped the default BBC subbing technique in certain cases:
Germany shooting: man killed after cinema siege
Note the early mention of the usual defence of Islamic insanity right at the top in para 3, and then again in para 8.
This comes before the impact statement of the victim who said she felt “destroyed” (para 12) and the comments of the judge who called the attack “merciless” (para 15).
Simple bias by precedence.
Let’s compare it to other similar assaults, say (just for a random example here) Mair on Cox. Was his inanity, and what “literally drove him mad” mentioned in para 3 of the BBC articles about it? Hardly.
Is this the start of the referendum fix?
All day people have been advising not to use the pencils in the polling booths but take a pen to prevent them erasing your vote.
Cops are alerted to this and have paid a visit to one UKIP supporter for lending her pen.
And we have the well known fiddle of the postal ballot – don’t menton that it might be racist..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3656171/Usepens-Brexit-backers-urge-voters-pen-polls-case-pencil-markings-erased-MI5-plot.html
I’m not sure if this has been covered already as I don’t get the chance to read every post, but I find this article from last year’s Mail quite interesting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3298572/New-charity-scandal-Save-Children-executive-quits-women-s-complaints-inappropriate-behaviour.html
Now, if I was a detective type, in the light of this article, I would be looking into the state of his marriage, and what sort of company he was keeping in the last few weeks.
Something about this sat very uncomfortably with me right from the start, but now I’m even more intrigued…..
I’m with you on this one ‘neilw’. Something just doesn’t sit right. It didn’t with me concerning the dust cart “crash” in Glasgow and before all the CCTV footage was pulled, I know what I saw. It didn’t sit right with me concerning the photo of ‘Aylan’ who was supposed to have “drowned”. The person who uploaded the picture was running a refugee charity that had run out of cash. Later, in fact 4 days later, a hapless BBC reporter photographed the same infant in the arms of a Serbian Police office, of which the photograph has been posted on this forum. I still have that image on file. This tragedy of MP Jo Cox, doesn’t sit well at all. The reaction of the husband is all wrong. Yes I know we all treat death of our nearest and dearest differently, but as has been pointed out on here, he shows no emotion whatsoever, it is almost as if her death served his purpose. If I was plod, I really would be looking hard and long at this.
The Old Bloke
‘it is almost as if her death served his purpose. If I was plod, I really would be looking hard and long at this’.
If I were the plod I would be keeping my cowardly nose clean and not asking questions, like a good collaborator
In three days time it will be one year since the Jihad murder of 30 British people on a beach at Port El Kantaoui by terrorists.
I can’t recall, from then, anything like the reaction by the media or the Progressives or Parliament in response to that massacre; compared with the overblown theatrics which we have seen, from them, in response to the murder of one MP in the street by a mentally unstable individual.
I doubt whether that anniversary will get even the most cursory of mentions by al beebus; as with the killing of Lee Rigby.
However I feel certain that Saint Jo of Birstall’s martyrdom will live indefinitely in the al beebus and progressive memories; so we can be sure we won’t be allowed to even think of forgetting her.
On a related point; didn’t Camerscum say he was going to bring those ultimately responsible for the Tunisian attack to account? I wonder how that’s working out? Another of his cast iron promises? “No ifs and no buts.”
Vermin!
Al, Dave also promised that everyone involved in the ‘Horsemeat Scandal’ would be tracked down and prosecuted (and serve prison terms?) and that there would be successful prosecutions for FGM.
I think there was one trial of three people alleged to have been involved in food corruption and one Doctor was tried for FGM but I think the case was thrown out. I do not feel happy being asked to trust David Cameron; on the EU, on pretty much anything, especially by him.
We live in interesting times. My hope is to wake up tomorrow to news of a shock Referendum victory for the Leave campaign of an average of 60% with as many as 7:3 or 7.5:2.5 votes cast in a couple of countries of the Kingdom.
It will be a miracle.
Miracles happen.
It will happen. Maybe not tomorrow tomorrow, but it will.
It would have been nice if the UK could have continued its long standing role as the awkward squad, standing up to continental excess. Unfortunately I think some other member state will have that distinction. Still, you never know.
this is what the remainers really think
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-polling-station-england-flag-enfield_uk_576ba65be4b0b1f1704ff5e9?t73nmi&
Click on the link and then look through those he follows….The Labour party, the Guardian and plenty of employees of the BBC..
https://twitter.com/christopheral/following
I might be wrong, but it’s my understanding that electoral rules state that there should be no photographs inside a polling station. What sanctions will be imposed against this rotten piece of filth? If there are no sanctions then what’s the point in having rules? Same goes for the scum who were handing out remain literature at the door of a station in Tower Hamlets? That said, it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference there when you take into account the muslim block vote for remain.
“there should be “no flags belonging to any side ”
That sums it up in less than 10 words. Remainiacs despise the English flag, which is why they say it belongs to the other side. These filth make my piss boil.
You’re not going to donate the steam off your piss are you? 😛
Meaningless statement which indicates nothing.
It indicates everything sonny, but treacherous little cunts like you have no understanding of anything outside your condescending, sanctimonious, regressive, left-wing bubbles.
We’ll let you know the result tomorrow, it’s long gone your bed time.
Possibly the comment of the day.
Go out and vote! This time, every vote counts.
Give the smug, self satisfied elite a savage shock.
They know it’s on way.
Make it count.
Cry God for Harry! England and Saint George!
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers!
So Boris Grayling and IDS ,who incidently makes a ton of money from EU set aside grants arent part of the elite. Such stupity is breathtaking.
Yes, I am stupid. Thanks for letting me know. Is your job done now?
Where are their set aside lands ?
Out of interest , would I be right in saying
If Brexit wins , sales of champagne will double over the next week .
If Remain wins , sales will dip slightly .
.?
You are being ironic yes?
Well know the result when Sunderland declares…..A working class area with growing UKIP support….If that goes for “Remain”, it’s goodnight and God bless….If Sunderland votes “Leave” then it’s ‘game on” suddenly..
Indeed. We are on the cusp.
No, Sunderland would have to be at least 10 points in favour of leave for it to be “game on”. If Sunderland is close then we can forget it.
Th BBC seem horribly confident that Bremain has won, given that not a single result has come in.
It reminds me of the ‘suspected suicide of Dr Kelly’ within just a few hours of his body being found…
Whatever the outcome, we can take solace in the fact that the Labour party will be utterly devastated tonight, outside of London at least. Millions of what should be their core support will have voted against their multicultural liberal regressive bullshit.
The far-left commentators, and even the centre-left, will spin it that the poor working class simply don’t understand the complex economics, or that they are just plain xenophobes and racists. How patronising and insulting. However, we all know the reality is very different in the vast majority of cases. The working class are savvy enough to understand that it’s the folk at the bottom who have been shafted the most by the EU. Not only have their wages been driven down (if they have a job at all) by the millions of immigrants that have come to seek a better life, but the double-whammy of having the additional scrounging parasites foisted upon their communities. My elderly father is from solid working-class stock, but he is neither a xenophobe nor a racist, but when it comes to politics, he’s as sharp as a tack. After the first Blair term he has been scathing of the Labour party and has for many years been a UKIP voter. He is not alone, as tonight will reveal.
We might lose this one, but this is not the end. If Cameron and the political establishment think the EU issue will go away they are in for a rude awakening at the next general election.
Excellent pot, neilw.
Should have typed post rather than pot.
That’s a relief. For a minute there, I thought he’d passed you a reefer.
I’d sooner pass him a pint of Spitfire. Point taken 🙂
Mine’s a double (pint, that is)! 🙂
Let’s raise a glass to a great campaign well fought – and to the remote possibility of a miracle by tomorrow morning. As someone else already said, miracles do indeed happen, and boy do we need one now.
In any case, in the longer game, as others have already said, the political landscape is changed. UKIP is polling around 20% now, and its easy to see why.
From someone who thought he’d never vote UKIP in his life, I’ve now been converted to an “I’ll vote UKIP until we leave the EU” kind of guy, solely as a result of this referendum campaign – and I doubt I’m the only one.
Every BBC jumior reporter at the ‘counts’ seems to be black or Asian!
Their latest intake of ‘trainees’ through their racist appointment system I suspect.
Counting has stopped for a minute’s silence for an MP who has allegedly been killed.
I have heard two accounts today of strange things. One from a Chinese friend that EU citizens, (not British) he knows have voted. Another from a young person that her friend recently arrived in the last year from Poland has been given a vote also.
This election is one the elite must win. They will do so of course so nothing can be reagrded as beyond them. What is certain is that the election has split the country especially England and that things are never going to be the same
We in the shires will learn our lesson. This is what the metropolitan elite really wants. Dream on is my answer. As with all real revolutions the start difficult to pinpoint at the time. This is the start of something and what it is I do not know but the unreal worldview of the last 60 years that has been imposed upon this old land is going to crumble.
The potential for large-scale gerrymandering is rife, and something needs to be done about it to tighten things up. There is no checking that people on the register actually exist – or has they are of the nationality they say they are – and all a landlord would have to do is fill in a form and hey presto, ready-made voters, along with convenient postal votes.
Hear, hear!
And this:
Laura Kuenssberg
bbclaurak
Sources suggesting Sunderland might be as high as 62% for Leave, that would be quite something
10:39 p.m. – 23 June 2016
Interesting indeed – maybe I should switch on the coverage (sick bucket at hand, of course).