This is a major issue, one that the BBC are not to my mind not covering very well.
As always the devil is in the detail and the BBC don’t do detail when it conflicts with their agenda, so I though I would open a major talking point into its own space, it is deserving of such. The BBC keep saying that David Davis is a habitual quitter. In fact in 22 years he has only walked away from just two jobs, this being the second.
So why did David Davies leave the cabinet?
Firstly, the Prime Ministers policy was to go into negotiations having already made a series of concessions to the EU on what is described as the Common Rule Book (all our businesses, manufacturing, agribusiness) all of which will be written by the EU. Our future negotiations mean that the EU influence on the Common Rule Book will be further enhanced.
The typical tactic of the EU is to take what is on offer and ask for more. At some point you have to have an argument over this, and we have already offered way too much before we start negotiating.
Secondly, although the PM has said that Parliament will have the vote on each rule/law that it accepts, in truth if they -the EU, say no to, for example for a regulation on cars, all of the cars start being inspected at the border, so the so called ‘frictionless border’ has immediately been evaporated. In some circumstances it might even trigger the so called Northern Irish fall back option. That means that N.Ireland is effectively in the Single Market.
Thirdly, there is to be a customs arrangement whereby Britain will have to collect the EU taxes,. The EU have insisted that the EU Court of Justice will oversee it. Therefore, the EU still maintain control of our laws.
Treason May has effectively sided with the Anna Soubry (husband a Director of Morrisons) and Dominic Grieve (of French extraction) group of rebels who put multinational business interests ahead of the 17.4 million people who voted to leave the EU.
In effect we have only partially left the EU. We are being betrayed.
Pedant’s Corner: it’s Davis.
I do think that if he thinks the plan is unworkable, he needs to be putting forward his own plan. He has, after all, been at the heart of the negotiations and must know what is legally possible and indeed possible in practical terms. Boris too needs to be involved in putting a plan forward.
It’s all very well to carp from the sidelines but the Leave side now needs to step up to the plate.
‘ he needs to be putting forward his own plan’
Roland, he did. May/Robbins rejected it. It is being published this week. This came up in PM Questions yesterday.
Glad to hear it. I didn’t pick up on that on the news at 10 last night.
Roland
Department for Exiting the European Union -DEEU have been given permission for a full rewrite of the David Davis report being published this week.
Now I really begin to understand why Americans voted for Donald Trump.
The swamp in the UK and Europe is far worse then in the USA.
No wonder the swamp dragons in the USA are doing their best to unseat Donald Trump – including lies of all sorts. But King Donald, like Arthur of old, seems to relish slaying dragons. If he manages to appoint another dragon slayer to the SCOTUS round table, Sir Donald would have won, regardless.
We need a Kind Donald in the UK. I wonder who will take up Excalibur here.
Wonder how Trump would go on if – after his adventures in the US – he set up a libertarian/low tax/right of centre party in the UK? (with the attitude that equality/diversity/human rights laws was nothing more than a bit of irritating shit that needed scraping off the boot).
The Chequers meeting, I had thought, was going to be a meeting where the Minister for exiting the EU, Mr Davis, would present his plan and Mrs May would then endorse it.
If my understanding is correct, what happened is that Mrs May presented her plan to her colleagues, including Mr Davis and demanded that they endorse it.
If this is correct, my conclusion is that Mrs May had prepared her own exit plan without telling Mr Davis what she was doing. She must have colluded with her fellow plotter in the Civil Service, Olly Robbins, to produce a Brexit in name only plan, which must have been her objective from the outset, while using Mr Davis and his team as a façade for her underhand, nefarious deeds. If I’m correct in my analysis; and even if I’m not, the results are just the same; she has betrayed our country to a foreign power. She’s a traitor and so is her pet Civil Servant, Mr Robbins, and they must be punished in a court of law.
May also ran the whole thing past Merkel before presenting it to the Cabinet.
I simply cannot understand Mrs May‘s justification for agreeing the plan with Mrs Merkel before presenting it to her cabinet. Had it been Juncker or Tusk, I wouldn’t have liked it, would still have thought it would weaken our negotiating position. But choosing to discuss the plan with just one of the heads of government of an EU country and one we have twice defeated in war, showed utter disrespect for our history and why we voted out.
There is no point in any ‘plan’ as Barnier will not negotiate. No deal and let them come to us when the German car industry and French wine and cheese producers start squealing blue murder.
WTO , no money, no nothing
unless the EU has a better idea to protect all their exports
I thought this was an interesting thread.
https://twitter.com/PeteNorth303/status/1016357078401736704?s=20
I don’t feel sufficient informed to judge how correct it is, but it makes some interesting points.
It might have been nice to get some objective facts from the BBC, but then again I probably wouldn’t have paid them any attention as it wouldn’t for a second occur to me that they might actually be impartial.
As is this, if no real surprise.
The bbc shark pack scent blood and seem unconcerned about who sees their frenzy for what it is.
Impartial it certainly is not.
The North family pretend they are anti-EU but in reality they hate ‘populists’ like Nigel and believe that we need something like the EU but designed (and run?) by them. They are just another pack of intellectuals that know better than us.
Of course international trade runs on ‘rules’ but the difference between being in the EU and out of it is that our objections to a rule are already lost at the EU stage, the EU representing us at the WTO level. Out of the EU we at least get a chance to make our case at the WTO and possibly to opt out.
The ‘clever’ Norths know full-well that many ‘rules’ are made at UN level and then the EU picks them up. I don’t know if it is the case at the moment but at one time Norway had the chair on the UN fishing committee, so they directed the rule making, that directed the EU, that ‘faxed’ it to Norway to ‘obey’! The poor UK, in contrast, only got a say after the UN pushed the ‘rule’ onto the EU, by which time it is too late.
The ‘snakes’ claim that we have ‘pooled sovereignty’ but in reality it is like the way in which the plebs get to choose the PM, i.e. we don’t get to choose at all except in so far as we might get the political party of choice.
The Norths are good , very very good and the Referendum blog is worth reading for insight into the problems of extracting ourselves from the EU .
The trouble with RAE North is that a lot of sycophants write to praise him and he believes them and his ego overtakes his credibility . Then he falls out with everyone but his acolytes .
But like President Trump , don’t let the personality get in the way of a useful tool .
I used to read the EURef blog and found that what Richard North said generally made sense. However his oversized ego and, as you say, sycophantic followers who inflated it drove me away.
He couldn’t abide anyone disagreeing or asking for clarification and made it clear he thought anyone who did so was stupid.
However how many of us here actually know what leaving the EU for WTO terms means? Until this morning I didn’t know that if we offer the EU zero tariffs, we must also offer zero tariffs to everyone. Unless that was fake news too.
I think many of us who just want out of the EU are going to have to accept that some sort of compromise will need to be made and treat it as a first step.
and why should we offer the eu zero tariffs on our massive trade deficit
No reason. But you’d have to charge that tariff to everyone, not just the EU.
Roland, my understanding is that we can have reduced/abolished tariffs if they are part of a Trade Agreement. What we can’t do is say that we are trading with everyone under WTO rules and then make exceptions. We have to make those exceptions official with a Trade Agreement.
Pete North’s blog is good value, but that comment is over simplistic. Any country that is party to an international agreement is a “rule taker”. The key question is who is making the rules. Under May’s surrender document we will be obeying the rules from the EU without having any input. On the other hand, if we decide on the WTO option we will have to abide by the WTO’s rules, but we will be represtented in the meetings that make those rules. At the moment lots of the EU’s rules are just rewrites of WTO rules, but we’re only 1/28th of the EU’s input to the decisioin making.
(I posted this after reading Roland’s post of 8.49, and before I’d read the replies).
Firstly, what is an “issue illiteracy” – that’s a new one on me.
Secondly, anything that is to be sold into another jurisdiction has to comply with the rules of that jurisdiction. You won’t get far trying to sell a 240v toaster in the U.S.A., for example. Anyone selling stuff to the E.U. has to comply with E.U. rules. But most people don’t sell stuff to the E.U. Anyone selling to Japan/India/Russia/Malaya/… has to comply with their rules; that’s understood.
Some people may be aware that the F.M. spectrum in Japan starts where most of the rest of the world’s leaves off. This goes back to the days when they were breaking into the global electronics market and it was worth their while making radios compatible with external standards, but it wasn’t worth while for other countries to make special radios just to be sold in Japan. They effectively blocked off their market to foreign competition while selling overseas like crazy.
‘Corbyn mocks PM’s cabenit crisis’
That is what the BBC have to say about it. The only view they have is that it is so bad that Corbyn is taking the mick out of it.
Why are there resignations? Not because Davis and Bojo do not agree with the proposals and wish for a ‘hard Brexit’ but instead it is just ‘Tory infighting’ and you never get that with Corbyn’s Labour!
So we already know that the BBC see the whole thing as one big joke and of course are putting their spin on things.
Meanwhile a new poll is published, it is a tie which looks worse for Labour than it does the Tories.
Chances are a new PM is still on the cards and if they turn out to be better for the Tories then I would like to see the BBC try and mock that!
Left wing biased, the lot of them!
Another interesting thread:
https://order-order.com/2018/07/10/87-guido-readers-oppose-mays-brexit-deal/#disqus_thread
Though, as one poster points out, paying attention to the majority seems so last week for too many in politics and media.
I have watched David Davis debate a motley crew of remainers and have been impressed with his calm, reasonable and civil style.
And now we have the bizarre spectacle of him being shoved aside by the weak, appeasing, PeeCee Theresa May as she curries favour with the dictators at the EU and their sly propagandists at the BBC.
What a travesty. The weak really are leading the strong in today’s Britain.
Speaking of principles and convictions, here is a bunch with none and who should end up with some.
Next week, are they creating one which asks, “are you happy to lie about and spin women’s economic contributions to justify closing the gender pay gap?”.
Top = Yes, am very happy to lie, distort facts & try and silence opposing views
Middle = Its good to promote women, but should stick to facts and have a debate
Miserable facist = No, we should acknowledge the pay gap is down to choice and pay people on merit & experience, irrespective of gender.
Ok, it’s just another poll, but…
Maybe the bbc’s Finest Analytical Reporting Teams could assess what this suggests?
Oh dear more people are still voting Tory than Labour so far! Obviously more people are voting for ‘other’ which might be a jump to UKIP but I feel that might be temporary for some people if there is a new Tory leader. A lot of calls for Mogg to be PM. I hope that it happens!
It all hinges on how grass roots Tories will react to Mrs May’s ‘Peace in our time’ paper.
NOT on the beebistan:
“Iranian Woman Gets 20 Years in Prison For Removing Her Headscarf in Protest”
-Time
Will Farage take up Excalibur.
Kind Donald is here in a few days. Apparently the swamp does not want him to meet Kind Donald on UK territory. Why?
Farage & Donald, you are our only hope.
“The return of control to parliament is more illusory than it is real,” he (DAVID DAVIS) told the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg.
“The return of control to
parliamentDEMOCRACY is more illusory than it is real,”“The return of control to
parliamentTHE PEOPLE is more illusory than it is real,”“The return of control to
parliamentTHE UK is more illusory than it is real,”The BBc’s Head peroxide sink chooses an interesting tweet to respond to with an equally interesting comment.
She seems keen to keep this going.
This endless talk of concessions and ‘deals’ is driving me insane. You can’t or rather shouldn’t go into a negotiation without being aware of your own strengths. We are a huge economy, we represent a massive market to the countries of the EU and despite endless guff about Frankfurt and Paris, London is still one of the major financial hubs of the world.
I hear all this talk of Theresa being tough and fighting for her leadership, well how about fighting for this country, how about remembering who we are and what we offer to the world. Seeing you grovelling up to Merkel and the likes for approval on your plan before presenting it to the cabinet, is sickening.
Why did anyone think that having a remainer PM wouldn’t bring these kind of problems. It genuinely makes me furious at the endless capitulation and grovelling by the likes of her and Sourbry and Hammond.
I love what this country has done for the world but the elite, the media and an endless slew of handout chasing immigrants are killing this country and turning us into an apathetic, insecure and spineless country.
If I could only win the lottery and emigrate to a proper blue USA state, buy a big truck, a big house and a selection of guns.
Always had time for David Davis – particularly in the contest with Cameron for the leadership of the Conservative party which the wrong one won.
I would enjoy the irony of him becoming the leader of the Conservative party one the current new labour woman has become lady may of Brussels.
Payne, that worries me. The blue states are Democrat, and you want to take guns there?
Yeah sorry, my bad, got my colours mixed up.
I have an old friend who lives like that in Montana. Breeds horses and from his house you can see clear to the mountains of Idaho. Very few people and no trouble. They are all armed and could defend their way of life it it comes to it.
About as different from the progressive US of the coasts as you can think of. They all support Trump.
Sounds like bliss, just the image I was thinking of.
Could it be that the system is working, Mrs May has been given enough rope and next step is the hanging? I think it’s very possible.
Let’s hope Olly Robbins career is now also in tatters; I suspect no MP will ever want to have anything to do with him and after March next year they’ll be no cushy EU job for him either. That’ll teach him to treat his postmasters, we the people, like sh1t.
As the Labour Party has elected a socialist as leader why don’t the Tories elect a conservative as leader ?
Anyone happen to know the numbers of remain voters – leave voters currently in the cabinet after the 2 leavers resigned.
If you want to see leftwing puerile humour at its worst and glimpse the underlying leftist groupthink underlying the entire bbc machine then look no further than the bbc’s Have I Got News For You facebook page, both the posts and the pathetic lefty comments. Lost count of how many times ‘gammon’ is used by the middle class self-loathing white hipsters on there and the infantile Trump jokes are truly embarrassing and utterly pathetic. I utterly despise the middle class leftists if this country. They are scum.
Are these middle class lefties the so called ‘traditional working class Labour voters’ as they call themselves?
They have taken over nearly every working class community. I was in London in March and ventured through the East End to Victoria Park, a park for everyone and to give the working class something to enjoy. There is a café in there which is modern, expensive and very hipster centric. Not quite the working class burgers and chips you used to get in the café in the park in Poole when I was younger. That place has also become a ‘bistro’ and these are popping up all over the place!
Remember the definition of COMPROMISE:
Everybody gets what nobody wants. Unfortunately the word when used by EUrocrats is a synonym for “others surrender to us”.
My reasoning behind of a spoiled vote post Brexit in one sentence
I’d rather be unrepresented than misrepresented
As we have all known from the start of the Brexit move, the Remainers have been intent on murdering Brexit through the polictical equivalent of death by a thousand cuts.Delay has been their great ally and there have plenty of individuals-Politicians, Media heads, academics, lobbyists, pressure groups, business men and other s of the great and good who have been willing to the play the role of quislings in the service of the EU. Already as we are seeing there are the ominous signs that despite the vote to leave attempts are being made to stitch the UK back into the EU. It is difficult just now to know what the H’ is going on, this Government is teetering on the brink of falling-but who will bend to pick up the pieces?
The Telegraph is reporting that when DD wanted to make changes to Treezer Chamberlain’s piece of paper last Friday he was told ‘we can’t change it because it has been agreed by Mrs Merkel’!
At 70 years I’ve never voted other than Tory, but given my MP is Treezer’s mate Grayling I’m damned if I will ever again.
It’s outrageous isn’t it. Running an agreement by a foreign leader before our own cabinet. The actions speak louder than the empty words. She has no spine and this country is just bending over and taking it from the EU and ultimately Germany.
It looks increasingly likely that Treezer and her Cabinet will want to continue with EU freedom of movement, albeit by another name. We are always being told our EU migrants ‘contribute’. I’ve done the calculations and those on Living Wage ‘contribute’ a damn sight less than they take out. A single man on LW (£14,250 for 35 hours weekly) pays £98.26 monthly in PAYE/NHI or £1179 pa. The cost per head of the NHS alone was £2069 in 2014/5.
An EU couple, both working and earning LW with one 5 year old child, paying rent of £700 pm, childcare of £180 weekly and council tax of £1431 would be entitled, entitled mind you, to £152.85 pw, or £7948 pa.
So by ‘contributing’ £2358 this immigrant couple would receive £7948 in tax credits, get NHS treatment costing £6207 and primary education for the child costing £4900 pa.
So I calculate £16697 contributed by me for this family. Good game, eh!
(Calculations from ‘entitledto’ website.)
I forgot to add that according to the ONS there were more than 500k EU27 born children in the UK last year.
That is almost 50% of the (self-supporting because working/retired and we pay their healthcare costs) Brits in the rump (ass??) EU.
Oh why oh why cant there be a decent right wing libertarian party to vote for. Its like going to a supermarket and not being able to buy bread and milk… only spam, squid or alcohol free elderflower wine.
tony1234
Croeso! 🙂
You have been spending too much time paying attention to Al Beeb.
Just join/vote UKIP, and voice your frustration here. Simples!
Thanks! I just feel UKIP are missing a huge calling at the moment – i.e. to step outside even the UK independence issue and stand for radical, unashamed, digital-powered direct democracy. Define, say, 12 key policy areas – hold open national debates in each – consensus prevails. The biggest enemy of the Left is open debate, where its forced to faced rationality amd facts and their sentiment is challenged by the implications.
UKIP should become a conduit where people both gain and share the confidence and motivation to be politically active…. to rectify the outdated duopoly… to realign laws and policies with consensus values. i.e. Be about a big idea. I’d indeed love to vote for UKCP instead (aka The UK Consensus Party). Alas, I see own goals and astrategic identity crisis. Really hope we see reinvention with a purpose soon.
tony1234
Tell your mates .
According to Al Beeb Mrs May is hoping that the Trump visit will boost US / UK links . Who are they trying to kid?
The first thing she should do is to pop Khan’s ridiculous, childish balloon before the media swamp exploit
It . This nation needs a leader now more than ever.
There are signs that we will be facing water shortages shortly. Of course, it will be nothing to do with too many people in the country.