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‘how do you make agreements with people who blow themselves up ?’
From a distance.
when you think about the lost opportunity the Pali’s had – i mean, without any terrorism, they seriously could have had a go at making Gaza the “monaco” or “Dubai” of the Middle East – zero tax for inward investing companies, zero tax for banks, blah blah etc etc etc.
the real estate there is right next to the sea – a prime location.
instead, they were so consumed with Jew hatred, they voted for Hamas.
Killing Jews seems to be a higher priority than economic development.
‘Killing Jews seems to be a higher priority than economic development.’
Or perhaps they’ve realised that if the stop killing Jews then all the aid will stop too.
details on those Pali women prisoners
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2006/06/some-of-those-female-prisoners.html
Rick
Extradition agreement with the US: “and the ECHR refused too”. Actually no: the ECHR is prepared to hear the case BUT it is not prepared to hold up the extradition. All credit to Liberty for supporting this one and all shame to the Law Lords committee for refusing leave to appeal to the House of Lords.
Funny – if you’re a failed asylum seeker and probable terrorist you can go right through the judicial process (at our expense), get a hearing every time and, whatever happens, stay here ad infinitum. If you’re an indigenous Brit you can f*** off (sorry Natalie but I think it’s justified this time) as far as our judiciary is concerned. BTW I cannot find which judges constituted the Law Lords committee refusing leave to appeal – it’s not on the House of Lords website.
Yes but it is not “The House Of Lords” but the Law Lords within the House of Lords as such. The Govt nobbled it because they did not want a test case made of this which would set a precedent.
Apologies if this has already been commented upon
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/index.html
An article from the editor on choice of language, but he couldn’t resist a gratuitous dig at Israel in the first paragraph. Absolutely nothing to do with the thrust of the article.
makan,
You beat me to it, I was just about to post about Alan Johnston Superstar!
The Editors’ blog
Why careful language is essential when reporting on Gaza
Our credibility is undermined by the careless use of words which carry value judgements. Our job is to remain objective. By doing so, I hope we allow our audiences on radio and television to make their own assessment of the story. So we try to stick to the facts – civilians are “kidnapped”, Cpl Shalit was “captured”; since troops don’t usually make “arrests”, the politicians were “detained”. Doubtless some will disagree. But that’s, in essence, the heart of the story – two competing narratives.
Ah yes, the “two competing narratives”. No mention of Jews being ‘killed’ or ‘found dead’.
I think the real reason they’re so careful is because if they don’t toe the Hamas line they wouldn’t be safe.
More gratuitous reference to Gaza, and Iraq, further down the page here.
So we try to stick to the facts – civilians are “kidnapped”, Cpl Shalit was “captured”; since troops don’t usually make “arrests”, the politicians were “detained”.
So how do they justify this?
KEY STORIES
Israel seizes Hamas legislators
Seized Israeli settler found dead
…So we try to stick to the facts – civilians are “kidnapped”…
Except when they’ve been ‘seized’.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5125256.stm
I think they are making it up as they go along.
… since troops don’t usually make “arrests”, the politicians were “detained”.
Really?
So explain this headline Mr Editor!
Israel justifies Hamas MP arrests
Shouldn’t that be Israel justifies Hamas MP detentions
The BBC’s hypocrisy knows no bounds…
TheCuckoo – anything to avoid calling a terrorist a terrorist, or to be seen to support Israel and the rest of the civilised world.
Re the Robert Stewart enquiry:
Umbongo, the reason why the BBC and other liberal left-wing media have so eagerly anticipated the 600pp long inquiry findings, and can’t wait to discuss it is because they know that the plumbers will get very good mileage from this, and they can attack the ‘racist’ prison service. This was from September 2005:
“The chairman of the Zahid Mubarek inquiry, Mr Justice Keith, said in a note to inquiry delegates that Muslim prisoners are now more at risk of attack.
“The position of Muslims in prison is now high on the agenda – not simply because Zahid Mubarek was a Muslim, but also because of the significant increase in Muslim prisoners in recent years, and the possibility of reprisals against them by other prisoners in the wake of recent terrorist outrages,” he said.
“What steps, if any, are being taken to afford Muslim prisoners adequate protection from other inmates?”
http://society.guardian.co.uk/youthjustice/story/0,,1581176,00.html
They have a new mantra “institutional murder” of a Muslim prisoner, all the usual suspects, Imran Khan, lawyer (remember him?). I wonder if Mr Justice Keith ever considered that Stuart was a Christian, if he had been baptized for instance, what it actually says on his birth certificate (always a good indicator?). So, JK speculates on BBC radio “An end to forced sharing of cells” …. Does that mean new prisons? would that mean Muslim only wings? Should the white English underclass (all of those those dirty white-van driving dangerous bigoted sun-reading racist psychopathic football hooligans, bless em) be put in the same cell as clean Koran reading Muslims?
Do they have a policy of putting Hindu’s in with Muslim’s? Would they put a Jew in with a Palestinian? Notice the rather bland generalization by Justice Keith “reprisals against them by other prisoners”, without ever being ethnically or religiously specific, as if the whole prison service was Islamophobic, as if the rainbow-coalition of the entire prison service were all against them.
The US Supreme Court has decided that without Congress approval Pres Bush cannot have military tribunals to try certain Guantanamo prisoners.
The ruling is undoubtedly a setback for Bush. (and many see this as yet anothewr example of liberal judges re-writing the constitution and stripping the Pres of his wartime powers).
But there are likely to be moves in Congress to grant him the approval he needs – which would clear the matter. (People will be offended by the court’s intrusion on the President’s legitimate powers as Commander-in-Chief, by failing to observe the separation of powers that is core to the US constitution.)
Alternatively, he can just keep the prisoners without the military tribunals proposed – the judgment explicitly allows this, while hostilities continue.
But watch out now for the BBC to stretch the judgment every which way – to suggest that it somehow means that Gitmo itself is illegal – which it isn’t; or that all the Gitmo prisoners will now be brought to civil-style trials – which they won’t and which the judgment does not require ; or that the Geneva Conventions apply in total to the Gitmo detainees – which the judgment does not even imply.
The BBC now has a dilemma. Does it lead with this story – to bash Bush ? Or with the Feltham story – to bash the prison system ?
The BBC now has a dilemma. Does it lead with this story – to bash Bush ? Or with the Feltham story – to bash the prison system ?
dumbcisco | 29.06.06 – 5:00 pm
Spoilt for choice!
(Adapted from a joke on ISIHAC.)
The US Supreme Court has decided that without Congress approval Pres Bush cannot have military tribunals to try certain Guantanamo prisoners.
It has taken them a long time to get around to that, but it is clear that applying military disipline to civilians without any legal basis is dodgy.
I cannot see how the Supreme Court could rule any other way.
Does that mean new prisons?
Well John it should do. We have been paying record amounts of tax to Gordo in the expectation that they would have enough prison spaces for the collapse in law and order that has taken place since 1997.
If Labour can spend £1.000.000.000 on The Dome and lose £2.000.000.000 a year on Tax Credits plus spending £7.000.000.000 on Foot & Mouth – I reckon they can give every remand prisoner their own personal cell with flush toilet.
Now….why haven’t they done this ?
Hi Guys,
Very interesting debate and you all know much more about this than I so I don’t feel qualified to say anything about the main issue here.
But on two minor points;
Makan, I think the editors blog mentions the Israeli bombing of the power station to try and get across the difficulties of reporting in Gaza. I read it as being central to the post.
John, The Stewart Inquiry. I think the reason this report is getting so much coverage is the fact the young man that was killed was about to be released and had expressed remorse for his crimes. Which makes his death and the manner of it even more tragic. That’s what makes it more newsworthy than some of the other apparently similar stories others have mentioned here.
PS But you seem to have good points about picking up some inconsistancies on the BBC website following on from Jon Williams’ blog post. I’d mention them in the comment section and see what happens.
re my previous http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/115149720855118858/#291363
I should have made a screen capture.
It now does read “Israel justifies Hamas MP detentions”
To whom do I send my invoice at the BBC for my proof reading services?
Buffoons! *
So we try to stick to the facts – civilians are “kidnapped”, Cpl Shalit was “captured”; since troops don’t usually make “arrests”, the politicians were “detained”.
‘Kidnap’ is good enough for Kofi Annan and the Pope. Can we look forward to more stealth editing and another climb-down?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5128368.stm
Kofi Annan, United Nations Secretary General
Of course it is understandable that they [the Israelis] would want to go after those who kidnapped their soldier but it has to be done in such a way that civilian populations are not made to suffer…
Pope Benedict XVI
I pray that every person kidnapped be quickly returned to their loved ones.
http://blogcentral.jpost.com/newsItems/viewFullItem$1017
Reporters on the Job: Sderot under fire
Now this reporting by the Jpost is the kind of stuff that the BBC ought to be doing.
On the extradition treaty with the US, I was careful to state that I didn’t have enough info to comment but the fact that Liberty are being mobilised by the BBC as ‘impartial’ advocates on the side of capitalists is worthy of note. Also noteworthy is the fact that Liberty have made no attempt to protect the employment of a bus driver who was sacked because he is a member of the BNP. I would have thought that dismissal of a person from work for membership of a legal political party is a dangerous precedent and is what organisations such as Liberty, Amnesty and indeed the BBC should be countering.
Rick
How can you call the Gitmo prisoners “civilians” ?
And the decision could well have gone the other way. Three of the Supreme Court justices gave individual oppositions to the judgment, and Roberts had. The judgment was written by an 87-year-old !
My main point is that the judgment is narrower than the BBC is likely to report it. They will stretch the news item to suggest that Gitmo must close, and give the impression that everything is illegal, yada yada yada.
Dumbcisco: Just to mention I heard Justin Webb say very clearly on 5 Live just now that this doesn’t mean Gitmo must close. He basically said exactly what you did!
I’m re-posting this comment here since it has been part of your discussion on this thread. Thanks to Biodegradeable.
————
Kerry B:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ theed…#commentsanchor
BBC editor fisked by commenters
If you visit the Editors blog, the subject of the latest post –“Gaza stories”– is on the so-called ‘careful’ use of words by the BBC. However, the bulk of the commenters take Jon Williams to task over glaring BBC inconsistencies and bias which has been pointed out many times in many ways by B-BBC and commenters here.
Kerry B | Homepage | 29.06.06 – 5:17 pm | #
How can you call the Gitmo prisoners “civilians” ?
Well they are not soldiers or they would be POWs under the Geneva Conventions – they are in fact “irregulars” and as such any civilian area where they fight becomes a legitimate battlefield according to the Geneva Conventions
I don’t know how else to describe them……….the IRA always demanded POW status as “soldiers” and we denied it them
The BBC report on its website says that the US will have to try the Gitmo prisoners in courts martial or as civilians.
This is simply not true.
It looks highly likely that Bush will seek Congressional legislation to provide the power the majority of the Supreme Court thinks he needs to set up military tribunals. That is the get-out in today’s judgment.
The other clear option is to do nothing whatsoever. This is a war – there is no need for any trials at all until hostilities cease – when they could simply be released.
The US is already trying to ship a lot of them home. The pressure for this will increase – and even though quite a few detainees have said they like being at Gitmo, some of them will face a far more hostile reception in their homelands.
Of course the webpage has umpteen references to other Gitmo stories, reflecting the BBC’s obsession with it.
BBC HYS – should Murdoch be allowed to influecne etc. Top comment just now:
“Isn’t it strange that the B.B.C. only asks this question when Murdoch threatens to stop supporting Blair and start supporting the Conservatives? We should not be surprised, given the left wing bias of BBC news
brian moore, morpeth ”
Added: Thursday, 29 June, 2006, 14:28 GMT 15:28 UK
Wonder how long it will stay there?
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=2363&&&edition=1&ttl=20060629183725
“I think the reason this report is getting so much coverage is the fact the young man that was killed was about to be released and had expressed remorse for his crimes. Which makes his death and the manner of it even more tragic. That’s what makes it more newsworthy than some of the other apparently similar stories others have mentioned here.”
Thats a complete load of crap and you know….how desperate can you get…..?
It’s a huge story becasue the BBC gets to shout “RACIST” every 5 seconds………the story is NOT about how this is all so tragic becasue a former low life crim felt guilty…
Get real……lolol….
“BBC NEWS HEADLINES: A man who admited his former crimes were wrong, and who showed remorse, has been found murdered in his cell”…….???
thats what you think the main story is???…..
Ha Ha……
Sorry, this is only a main story becasue it was a “Racist” murder and the PC Brigade get to bleat on about their favorite subject…
Meanwhile, as women are forced into Burkas, Marriages, and face Gential Mutilation in the UK…….the BBC and the PC Wimps remain silent…….
http://counterterrorismblog.org
Prediction: Bush & Congress Will Override the Supreme Court’s Gitmo Decision (updated)
By Andrew Cochran
The news networks are proclaiming that the Supreme Court handed the President a “strong rebuke” in the Hamdan case by declaring the proposed Gitmo trials are illegal under U.S. law and international Geneva conventions.
Oh, really?
The decision is actually a huge political gift to President Bush, and the detainees will not be released that easily. The President and GOP leaders will propose a bill to override the decision and keep the terrorists in jail until they are securely transferred to host countries for permanent punishment. The Administration and its allies will release plenty of information on the terrorist acts committed by the detainees for which they were detained (see this great ABC News interview with the Gitmo warden). They will also release information about those terrorist acts committed by Gitmo prisoners after they were released. They will challenge the “judicial interference with national security” and challenge dissenting Congressmen and civil libertarians to either stand with the terrorists or the American people. The Pentagon will continue to release a small number of detainees as circumstances allow. The bill will pass easily and quickly. And if the Supremes invalidate that law, we’ll see another legislative response, and another, until they get it right. Just watch.
UPDATE: Michelle Malkin quotes a statement by Sens. Graham and Kyl: “We intend to pursue legislation in the Senate granting the Executive Branch the authority to ensure that terrorists can be tried by competent military commissions. Working together, Congress and the administration can draft a fair, suitable, and constitutionally permissible tribunal statute.” You bet they will!
June 29, 2006 12:04 PM Link TrackBack (7)
The “Editors blog” is turning out to be as much of a joke and as “transparent” as (D)HYS. Several of the most critical posts seem to have been deleted, and that’s after they were vetted before publication.
The page refered to here has now been removed from the BBC server. What did “John Reith” once say about not deleting everything but leaving it there for history’s sake?
Bah and humbug!
2. At 03:36 PM on 29 Jun 2006, Ilan wrote:
I don’t mind if BBC is consistent, but check out this (there are others) clip from a search on BBC relating to “kidnapped” British soldiers:
Monday, 28 August, 2000, 06:26 GMT 07:26 UKKidnapped soldiers dominate papersThe fate of the 11 British soldiers kidnapped in Sierra Leone finds space on most front pages.
So what is it. British soldiers are kidnapped, but Israelis are captured? Don’t pretend to be “unbiased” in your use of language please. It strikes as fascetious.
Rick
I was just about to post that blog piece by Andrew Cochran. A superb piece.
Why is it that a simple blogger can get the story ten times more right than the BBC and its billion-a-year on the news division ?
Anon at 7.17pm was me
Falling asleep about the BBC News 24 droning on and on about the prison case.
How is that case more important than developments in Gaza ?
Absolutely amazing!
ALL of these pages found in the search results have been deleted, apart from the last one, James Reynolds obviously hasn’t received the memo yet.
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=kidnapped+soldiers&x=0&y=0&scope=all&edition=d&tab=all&recipe=all
Page 1 of 118 pages for kidnapped soldiers
LATEST BBC News & Sport results for kidnapped soldiers
News – Kidnapped soldiers dominate papers
Monday, 28 August, 2000, 06:26 GMT 07:26 UKKidnapped soldiers dominate papersThe fate of the 11 British soldiers kidnapped in Sierra Leone finds space on most front pages.
28 Aug 2000
News – US says kidnapped soldiers were beaten
The US soldiers were released after the human rights activist, the Reverend Jesse Jackson, went to Belgrade on a goodwill mission.
7 May 1999
News – Israel hits back after killings
An Israeli military spokesman, Major Yarden Vatikay, told the BBC that the kidnapped soldiers were reservists who were “lynched by Palestinians inside the police station”.
12 Oct 2000
News – Officer meets Sierra Leone hostage
On Monday the UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said he expected the kidnapped soldiers to be released “in the near future”.
29 Aug 2000
News – Mid-East press sees Gaza on brink
COMMENTARY IN ISRAEL’S MAARIV Even if [kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit] returns home it is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of yesterday’s event.
26 Jun 2006
News – Israeli reservist captured
Originallly the Israeli cabinet was told that no soldiers were missing from operations on the Lebanon border though the allegation was being checked.
15 Oct 2000
News – Fear in Gaza as Israeli forces strike
Hamas finds itself being in the position of being an elected government which is meant to be responsible, but having its armed military wing responsible for the fate of the kidnapped soldier.
28 Jun 2006
Plus:
Results from BBC Audio & Video »
3 of 3 results for kidnapped soldiers
Israel warns of ‘extreme action’
Israeli tanks have continued to shell Gaza as the hunt continues for a kidnapped Israeli soldier.
28 Jun 2006
The BBC’s Dumeetha Luthra
Real Media
“Two soldiers who disappeared from their posts are now believed to have been kidnapped”
27 Jun 2003
The BBC’s Nick Childs in Jerusalem
Real Media
“Kidnapping of its soldiers is a nightmare scenario for Israel”
15 Oct 2000
The Dutch Government has just resigned over the Hirsi Ali case.
Now THAT is real news.
Yes! Now maybe the Dutch will get a chance to really debate the issues and the way their own society is being undermined by both Islamic fanatics and their own home grown liberals!
dumbcisco,
Where did you spot this resignation news? I’m looking around & nobody else is talking about it yet. Dutch folk at FFI are pretty fast with home-grown politics. Can you give a link?
barker john -> it was mentioned at the tail end of Channel 4 news tonight.
google search – top headline:
http://www.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=dutch+government&btnG=Search+News
Things go from bad to worse in the BBC’s Gaza coverage. They have Lyse Doucet on the case now.
The Dutch story is NOW on the BBC
Thanks!
Newsnight has our old friend Mo Begg being interviewed by Wark. After a tendentious pice by Peter Marshall. Wark says “will this hasten the closure of Gitmo” – complete with staring eyes, horrified by the prospect of Gitmo continuing.
Biased idiot. And what poor journalism.
(Mo Begg looking very sleek. Yet another appearance fee from the BBC. Or he must be selling a lot of books. As usual, no mention of why Begg was held at Gitmo.)
(D)HYS “Should Murdoch stay out of British politics?”
It’s difficult to get a submission accepted & yet this possible libel sails by the moderators
Added: Thursday, 29 June, 2006, 12:05 GMT 13:05 UK
Murdoch is self-serving and corrupt. He will ignite racism and support injustice for profit.
Tony, Edinburgh
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@ Biodegradable
All those stories have gone into the memory hole. Minitrue’s job is to promote Ingsoc among the proles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5128186.stm
Press furore over Gaza offensive
Full of out of context quotes to create the impression that “Israeli papers disagree on the methods the government should use to free an Israeli soldier currently being held by Palestinian militants.”
Note that the lead paper chosen is “HA’ARETZ” which is the israeli equivalent of the Guardian.
Note that the three other Israeli papers are full of hangwringing about the problems of “pidayon shivuim”. I.e the firm willingness to try and recover all hostages at almost any cost.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5129410.stm
Israel’s army and national psyche
Again, enough bias to choke a horse.
“And for many, in Israel and abroad, the army’s role in maintaining the occupation of territories captured in 1967 compromises the institution. A small number of Israelis, refuse to serve in the army in the occupied territories.”
Thos is wrong, the concientious objectors are a very small sub-sub-sub minority. Most Israeli’s care more about the army’s role in providing security, the “occupation” does not compromise institution.
“Nachshon Wachsman, 19, was killed with his three captors during a rescue operation by Israeli special forces.”
Who were his captors? Hint: H.A.M.A.S
BBC delenda est !!
melanie philips, god bless her, tried her best to explain the genocidal aims of Hamas in tonights QT. seemed to go over the heads of everyone, including the Tory.
shades of Orwell 1940, or Churchill 1933. a lone voice shouting against a misguided consensus.
MP was on QT??? I guess I should have watched it again (for once) – how did the ‘bbc crowd’ react to her?