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Open thread – for comments of general Biased BBC interest:
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imli | 25.12.06 – 6:16 pm,
Anat was probably referring to Anonymous as the troll.
Anonymous 25.12.06 – 1:00 pm,
I think we’ve met before on the pages of this blog, around the time of Irving’s sentencing. Unless it was someone else back then who was urging me and others to read Irving’s books.
I’ll give you the same answer I gave then: life’s too short to wade through the crap that goes by the name of Irving’s alleged historical research. Far greater minds than mine have done it and I trust their conclusions.
I have as much desire to read Irving as I have to plough through the Koran.
Which brings me to the next point. There is no similarity in any way, shape or form between the reaction of Islamic fascists to Rushdie, the cartoons and the Pope’s speech and the reaction of people on this site to Irving. Here’s why:
*Rushdie, the cartoons and the Pope tell the truth about Islam. Irving lies about the Holocaust.
*Islamic fascists impose fatwas on those who incur their displeasure or simply slaughter them. We don’t.
(er…sorry Anat, I couldn’t resist it.)
How the BBC defends terrorists in Iraq;
UK raid angers Basra politicians
Basra City Council has withdrawn co-operation from UK forces in southern Iraq after the police’s serious crimes unit was disbanded by troops. More than 1,000 troops helped to break-up the unit, which has been blamed for robberies and death squads. Major Charlie Burbridge said local politics was “complicated” and targeting the unit had been justified. Mohammed al Abadi, head of the city’s council, said the raid was provocative and illegal.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6209249.stm
and how the story was published in Qatar;
UK forces blow up Basra police station
In the Basra raid, the British set out to arrest officers with the station’s serious crimes unit, who were suspected of involvement with Shi’ite death squads. Seven members of the rogue police unit were apprehended three days ago in other raids, said a British spokeswoman, Royal Navy Lt Jenny Saleh. “We had intelligence to indicate that the serious crimes unit would execute its prisoners in the coming days, so we decided to intervene,” Saleh said.
British troops were fired on as they approached the station and their return fire killed seven gunmen, said Maj Charlie Burbridge, another British military spokesman. British and Iraqi forces transferred all 76 prisoners at the station to another facility in Basra, he said. Some prisoners had “classic torture injuries” such as crushed hands and feet, cigarette and electrical burns and gunshot wounds in the knees, Burbridge said. The British demolished the building to help disband the unit. “We identified the serious crimes unit as, frankly, too far gone,” Burbridge said. “We just had to get rid of it.” Mohammed Al Askari, a spokesman for Iraq’s Defence Ministry, said the operation was coordinated with the Iraqi government. “Multinational forces got approval for this raid from this ministry and with participation of the Iraqi army,” he said.
http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Gulf%2C+Middle+East+%26+Africa&month=December2006&file=World_News20061226299.xml
So the BBC version is one of British oppression (they even go as far to publish a picture of a Koran with a bullet hole in it) that the action was illegal and of course provocative.
The Qatar version explains how the raid came about due to information gleaned from the previous arrest of a couple of religious thugs , how it was sanctioned by the Iraqi government ,how the Iraqi army also took part and how as they arrived at the police station the idiots inside decided to fight it out. (7 dead gunmen = big mistake)
The BBC defending the terrorist yet again.
Pounce
I see the BBC has no problem defending another yet British Racist and anti-Semite as some sort of victim.
It’s OK by the BBC that Irving hates[deleted]. He also hates Jews, so as far as they’re concerned, his heart’s in the right place.
Edited By Siteowner
Last night on BBC World they had an item about Somalia and Ethiopia, and somehow managed to put the blame on the US presence in Iraq. This was in the actual reporting of the news, not any opinion item.
Unfortunately, I can’t repeat the exact words.
Most of this mornings BBC radio 4 today program was dedicated to the usual BBC voicing their hatred propaganda for America. This and the BBC continual pro Radical Islamic comments has been brought to the attention of the British and American security services.
Re: BBC & the Guardian, it’s worth remembering another sink for the BBC’s recruitment lucre is ‘The Voice’, the insane black newspaper. So work that one out: the ‘hideously white’ BBC wants to ensure proper represenmtation of blacks, so it advertises in a black newspaper, but the fact that the rest of the advertising is concentrated in the Guardian in no way suggests a bias towards recruiting Guardian readers.
the_camp_commandant
26.12.06 – 1:13 am
I’ve never thought the BBC was anti-semetic (in the Jew hating sense) just anti-Israeli. It certianly does not hate black people – though Irvine may. They are too PC surely?
Having not read any of Irvine’s output I can’t say if he is a holocaust denier but so what. He’s allowed to have a different opinion isn’t he? The guy may well be in league with Nazis but that just makes him an idiot. People like him need to be allowed to speak so that they can be countered. As we see with the BBC too much of a one sided arguement just causes suspicion and resentment.
I would say the BBC is concentrating on him because they want to show him as a right wing nutter, not because they agree with him.
.
The FatContractor, Irvine is Nazi and a Liar..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/exclusions/holocausthome.xml
.
Re Irving, I think the BBC is showing signs of a split personality. On the one hand, it comes out strongly against Holocaust denial and on the other it comes out strongly against Israel.
Re the BBC and blacks, the BBC is not against blacks but they have slipped from the top of the BBC’s favoured victim group in recent years to be replaced by Arabs and Muslims in general and the Palestinians in particular.
The BBC is dominiated by a paternalistic attitude that doesn’t actually extend to hatered of most groups, but does tend to treat them like children. Have you noticed how BBC interviewers talk down to minorities that don’t toe the party line?
dave t:
Don’t the Germans always show an ancient black and white comedy thing about a mad butler etc every year as well?
Oh you mean Freddie Frinton……….that’s on New Year’s Eve
Dinner For One
I viewed the BBC’s report as linked by Pounce and it does have a photograph of a koran with a bullet hole (somewhat conveniently) through it, as Pounce states. This photograph can only be presented with the single and sole purpose of attempting to inflame muslims by blaming British troops for that bullet-hole. The BBC is no longer merely biased: the BBC is now treasonous by inciting attacks on our troops.
Bryan
Having worked for Index some years back, the ‘difference’ you allude to vis Irving doesn’t seem so clear-cut to me. Any org involved in world-wide issues of censorship and free expression cannot ignore the imprisonment of a British “historian” for opinions he holds, and it doesn’t matter how contentious or flat-earthish they appear, or if you vehemently disagree with him. In the same way that Dawkins will also
have to put up with the publication and dissemination of
creationist literature no matter how repulsive it is to his scientific sensibility.(Now if this is taught in schools this is a different issue altogether!) But, and I’m sure that most liberal minded people will agree, to attempt to imprison people for their denial of what others consider to be scientific fact and indubitably true due to overwhelming empirical evidence- is just plain wrong!
I remember Guttenplan, wrote an interesting piece back in 2005 “Should freedom of speech stop at Holocaust denial?
http://www.indexonline.org/en/news/articles/2005/1/europe-should-freedom-of-speech-stop-at-holo.shtml
We also tend to forget that Irving is allowed to tour the US and lecture there whereas in parts of Europe free-expression is punished. This aspect of American life is as cherished as the separation of Church and State. And I’m afraid Europe lags very much behind but try convincing the BBC of this so enmeshed in its
Anti-Americanism. Fergal Keene this morning being a prime example.
Also I find it astonishing that some have accused the BBC of bias and promoting Irving. How can anybody not see through this classic example of good old bias reporting?
Reactions to Irving release
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6197837.stm
Doh,for starters, I wonder what his wife and daughter thought, or is this thinking outside the box?
UK raid angers Basra politicians
is the headline for the British Army raid on the Jamiat police station in Basra which may have saved 100 odd lives.
Well done the BBC – you’ve really captured the essence of the situation.
The BBC and half the story;
Afghan women suffer daily violence
Five years ago, after the fall of the Taleban, Afghanistan’s new government pledged swift action to improve the lives of women.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6204471.stm
“There are many reasons why domestic violence happens,”
1) “One big reason is poverty”
2) “Another reason is where a family resolves a dispute with another family by handing over one of their daughters. The girl usually gets treated really badly by the second family.”
As usual the BBC tries to blame the people who removed the Taliban for the lot of the Afghan women and then adds a number of excuses of why women in the Islamic world are born with a target on their backs. Strangely enough they omit the main reason of religious oppression. (I wonder why?)
You know the one which makes women cover up, which forbid women from speaking out, from receiving equality with their fellow man. Instead according to the BBC the big reason why women are oppressed in Afghanistan is because of dire poverty.
The BBC and half a story.
The BBC and its pro Islamic bias.
Islamic minefields.
Pakistan plans border minefield
Pakistan plans to fence and plant landmines along sections of its border with Afghanistan to stop militants, a foreign office official has said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6210057.stm
Christian minefields.
Migrants risking Greek minefields
In the far north-eastern corner of Greece, along the sensitive border with Turkey, lie the killing fields of the European Union.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4512677.stm
So guess which one of the above stories the BBC has the human rights angle on about laying minefields?
We also tend to forget that Irving is allowed to tour the US and lecture there whereas in parts of Europe free-expression is punished
Of course – most Nazi publications originate in the USA or Canada and thee are probably more people who believe in it than in Europe. They even have people in Pennsylvania dressing up as Waffen-SS. So what ?
Europeans can do things Americans are forbidden from doing like buy Cuban cigars; invest in overseas mutual funds; buy AOR scanning radios; pray in public buildings.
The French have shrine to Napoleon – a dictator who invaded most of Europe (although Hitler did not occupy Spain)and yet if Germans had a shrine to Adolf Hitler a few people on this site would be upset. The only reason parties like the NPD cannot publish the old Nazi stuff are laws like these – I have even heard the NPD in Germany praise David Irving as “a good Englishman”…………….frankly that’s like spitting on the graves of our war dead
(The BBC did have a jocular series
on the Crusades by Terry Jones; not serious history.)
I remember that. The bias became quite obvious when the forced conversion – with circumsision (ouch!) – of an army of Crusaders was treated like a big joke.
Somehow I don’t think the forced baptism of our Noble Saracen Foes would have received the same jocular treatment…..
“killing fields” – this is a bit emotive isn’t it?
” They [Campaigners??] say more than 70 civilians have been killed and many others injured during this period [30 years] despite significant improvements to the marking and fencing of the minefields”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4512677.stm
Are they really comparing this to Cambodias killing fields which “the number of dead range from 1.5 to 3 million out of a population of around 7 million”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killing_Fields
I’m sure I read somewhere recently on the BBC that they do not use emotive words that would make a judgement on a story, in response to being asked why they don’t use words like “terrorist”. “killing fields” is extremely emotive and anyone reading only part of the story would immediatly think of mass slaughter.
Anonymous 10:32am
I did a text search on that link and couldn’t find a link to Irvine, is there one? Do you have a link to a page that de-constructs Irvine’s fallacies? NB I don’t deny the holocaust. There are too many relatives I’ll never meet for that.
Bryan 10:56am
I don’t believe the BBC are anti-semetic just anti-Israeli. Their objection is political not racial.
As to the ethnic minority popularity stakes I think if most black people in this country came out as anti-American and anti-Israeli then the positions may change. Or it could be a numbers thing. Either way it’s a false position for a state broadcaster to be in.
Anyone catch Celebrity Mastermind? Had Rageh Omar answering questions on GW Bush. Cue lots of Bushisms and general sniggering between him and John Humpries about him……
John,
When it comes to the Holocaust, I don’t think your Dawkins analogy is apt. Last time I looked, creationists hadn’t murdered millions of scientists.
The reason why countries like Germany and Austria have strict laws against Holocaust denial should be obvious. It’s a genuine attempt to thwart those who would raise the banner of Nazism again.
It’s probably fair to say that many Germans and Austrians live with a profound sense of shame over their past and dread a popular resurgence of the attitudes that facilitated the Holocaust.
Many countries have laws against hate speech. Irving’s sick ranting comes from the same root. It’s simply delivered in the guise of “historical” research.
Are they really comparing this to Cambodias killing fields which “the number of dead range from 1.5 to 3 million out of a population of around 7 million”
Yes, the BBC is making such a comparison in the same manner as the BBC considers Guantanamo to be a ‘gulag’; the real gulag was a murderous death camp where millions died. Truth dies at the hands of the BBC.
Andy D:
Anyone catch Celebrity Mastermind? Had Rageh Omar answering questions on GW Bush. Cue lots of Bushisms and general sniggering between him and John Humpries about him……
———————————-
Caught it and was similarly disgusted. Ooh he didn’t know the name of Pakistan’s President and he thinks people from Greece are called Grecians (the latter so ‘funny’ they cracked it twice.)
I’m listening to the announcement of Saddam’s forthcoming execution. What are the bets on a BBC-led campaign for pardon?
Rageh Omar and Humpheries are not as intelligent as Bush, have less guts than the fighter jet flying Bush and whilst they may be able to read an autocue or express themselves in BBC English rather better, they’ll never have the political clout and influence of Bush or leave a mark on history like he will. Could all this anti Bush stuff be nothing more than jealousy from tiny little boys with small willies? All rather silly isn’t it?
The FatContractor,
It’s always a difficult call to make re the BBC’s attitude to Israel or Jews in general.
I believe that there are elements within the BBC which are profoundly anti-Semitic. As an example, the BBC ‘documentary’ a few years back titled Israel’s Secret Weapon was not simply an assessment of Israel’s nuclear status but was a demonising of the country reminiscent of the blood libel against Jews prior to the establishment of Israel.
It was simply an attempt to drum up anger against Jews and it’s interesting to note that the BBC defended the documentary as if it were being unjustly accused of bias. (John Reith defended it again on this blog.)
More recently the BBC threw its considerable weight behind Hezbollah against Israel. The bias there was astonishing.
If it’s indeed simply a political bias, it’s strange that the BBC treats no other country with the same scorn and derision – except perhaps America.
When “Palestinian” children are hurt or killed accidentally by Israel we are told in no uncertain terms that they are children.
When Israeli children are hurt by Arab terrorists they are merely “Israelis”.
Gaza rocket injures two Israelis
A rocket fired from the Gaza Strip has injured two children in southern Israel, Israeli medics have said.
Officials said the rocket hit a house in the town of Sderot. Reports say one of the victims was taken to hospital in a serious condition.
More on the latest “crude, home-made rocket that rarely causes casualties”…
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3344957,00.html
Uncle of one of teens tells Ynet, ‘This is the third time he escapes death. The first time the rocket landed in their house, the second time a rocket landed next to him’
…
A security officer who arrived at the area said that it was a difficult sight: “The two youths were writhing in pain and screaming. The rocket landed really close to them, and there was a puddle of blood beneath them. It was a shocking sight.”
Biodegradable – Actually the headline is:
“Israel to weigh Gaza truce stance”
The “two Israeli teens” injured are only mentioned in passing.
Also notice:
“Defence Minister Amir Peretz said Israel must reconsider its “restraint”. ”
“restraint” in quotes. Then they go onto justify the attacks.
“The Palestinian Islamic Jihad group said it carried out the Sderot attack in retaliation for recent Israeli military raids in the West Bank.”
Shouldn’t “in retaliation for recent Israeli military raids in the West Bank” be in quotes as they are apparently quoting Islamic Jihad.
Afterall they have with David Baker (a spokesman for Mr Olmert)
“restraint will not continue indefinitely while Israelis continue to be attacked”.. Also shouldn’t that be the “Isreali Prime Ministers” spokesman.
Show some respect for the mans postion at least.
The last post was me
Also if you look at the “FEATURES AND ANALYSIS” bit down the right hand side you get,
FEATURES AND ANALYSIS
Hard times
A Gazan remembers a year which for many has been the worst in living memory.
‘Risky move’ by Abbas
Lethal tensions in Gaza
Q&A: Palestinian crisis
Profile: Gaza Strip
Lebanese crisis explained
BACKGROUND
Rivals: Fatah and Hamas
Crisis facts and figures
Day-by-day: Lebanon crisis
Quick guide: Hezbollah
VOICES
Palestinian viewpoints
Lebanese viewpoints
Notice no “Isreali Viewpoints”
Anonymous:
Biodegradable – Actually the headline is:
“Israel to weigh Gaza truce stance”
The “two Israeli teens” injured are only mentioned in passing.
The report at that URL has been stealth edited. Originally it was as I posted it. Headline and first two paragraphs.
See here then send me your apologies:
http://newssniffer.newworldodour.co.uk/articles/18800/diff/1/2
… and get a nick!
Jon:
The last post was me
Jon | 27.12.06 – 1:38 am
Ooops, so it was… I see you have a nick then 😉
would mrminit or reith care to comment as to why the bbc continues to write about matters that are so thoroughly islamic in origin and nature, and yet so brazenly and perversely refuse even to name, much less to show, the almost completely sine-qua-non connection?
Voyager – back in 2005 a Jewish guy (rabbi, academic, politician?) got up and made a speech at Auschwitz to the effect that we, yes all of us Europeans not just Germans, are all to blame for the Holocaust. Frankly that’s like spitting on the graves of our war dead.
yes all of us Europeans not just Germans, are all to blame for the Holocaust. Frankly that’s like spitting on the graves of our war dead
True………..it also shows his poor education
I think the point the rabbi was trying (and failing to make properly) was that by ignoring the problem or refusing to take any more Jewish refugees Europe as a whole did cause more deaths than should have been the case. Not to mention the way the French and other nations almost willingly sent their Jewish populations to the camps during the various occupations….a reasonable point poorly made. Thankfully many people also tried their best to save Jews from the camps.
Eminent colleagues Biodegradable and jon,
I’ve just seen the stealth edit. But I noticed that the “Last Updated” time is 01:02 GMT, quite a few hours after the original article – which has been substantially changed.
So here’s the question: Has it finally got through to the “editors” at the BBC that we have seen through their despicable stealth editing? And is their so-called “solution” to disguise the bias of the original article by obliterating it? In other words, will they still sneak the propaganda in for a few hours and then wipe the slate clean?
The headline Gaza rocket injures two Israelis is disgusting. These are minors the BBC is talking about, not adult citizens, and that fact should be made clear.
Here’s another article in the same vein from last year:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4348726.stm
Israel cracks down after killings
Recently dismantled checkpoints have been reinstalled
Israel has re-imposed a series of restrictions on Palestinians travelling through the West Bank following the killing of three Jewish settlers.
That last bit in bold was originally part of the headline but was stealth-edited out.
The murdered “settlers” were two young women and a teenage boy.
I complained about the article at the time and it was subsequently radically altered for the better, but the change was then quickly wiped out and replaced with the existing article.
I got a feeble written response which missed the point I was making, complained again and then heard nothing further.
The BBC is beyond belief.
dave t,
Spot on.
Watching BBC news 24 this morning, the anchorman announced ” An oil pipeline has blown up in Nigeria, killing hundreds “.
No mention of the fact that the pipeline was illegally tapped, and that they were the authors of their own misfortune.
The BBC4 headline this morning:-
“The death of Gerald Ford; the only unelected leader in US history…”
Calvin Coolidge anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_Coolidge
To be fair French radio made the same mistake.
They probably just pull their stuff off the wire and re-spin it!
Gordon | 27.12.06 – 8:12 am
Calvin Coolidge anyone?
Calvin Coolidge was not an ‘unelected President’.
Like LBJ he first succeeded to the Presidency and later won in his own right.
(He won the election of 1924.)
Ford was never elected.
OK JR you have a fair point in that he was subsequently elected for a second term but he was unelected during his first presidency.
It’s quite remarkable that one. They’ve been electing leaders for over 200 years and never had any really big problems (apart from that civil war thing) that the system couldn’t deal with, and only one truly unelected leader to show for it. There are countries over here who have been doing it for less than a century and still managed to fit in dictators, despots and just plain nasty people.
Right on archonix!
Such a pity we can’t term limit our PMs like the US Prez as Blair would have been gone years ago…!
The headline on that ever-changing page which first reported that two generic Israelis had been hurt by a rocket is now a full blown accusation of Israeli aggression:
Israel to resume militant strikes
Just like in the examples Bryan gave the BBC were just waiting for the excuse to turn an unprovoked attack on Israeli civilians into a story about Israel attacking those poor, long-suffering Jordyptians.
{spit!}
This video clip of an interview with Katya Adler is amazing in it’s dishonesty.
Israel to resume strikes
First she talks about Ehud Olmert trying to “score brownie points” then says that the “ceasefire” was called by Olmert because his policy in Gaza was failing and because of Israel’s continuing operations in the West Bank “Palestinians” have lost hope in the “ceasefire”.
We all know that the truth is that it was the “Palestinians” who called the ceasefire and broke it within minutes.
Shameful reporting, marvellous propaganda for the terrorists!
This article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6193957.stm
Good grief, where do I start?
* He claims that “a big part” of the mideast’s problems is that “Israel does not mean the same thing” as the Palestinian leaders when it talks of peace. He flatly ignores the reality: that HAMAS has pledged to destroy Israel and flatly refuses any other program, and that in response to Israel’s well-meaning withdrawal from Gaza, Israel got nothing but thousands of rockets fired from Gaza. That is why there is no peace. That is the whole story.
* “Syria is arming itself, apparently for self-defence, with missiles to which Israel is vulnerable.” WRONG. Assad has been arming Hizballah and threatening to attack Israel in order to take back the Golan. Self defence? On what planet?
* Misrepresentation: Bowen implies that Iran is under pressure because of Israel; he ignores the fact that Iran is a threat to the neighboring Sunni countries as well, and that because Russia is protecting Iran from being punished for its flagrant violation of the NPT, there is going to be a nuclear arms race in the middle east.
There’s more, but I want to keep this comment fairly small… .