Ok, this is the third and last one of these posts (I promise!) but I draw to your attention to the BBC’s Northern Ireland site today and a posting entitled “Northern Ireland’s Big Picture.” And what, you may ask, does this reveal? Why it’s a smiling image of the President of the Republic of Ireland Mary McAleese on what is one of her numerous cross-border sallies. As part of advancing the territorial claim to Northern Ireland, McAleese will turn up at the opening of a letter if it generates favourable publicity. She has of course no constitutional position in Northern Ireland as we already have a Head of State in the shape of Her Majesty the Queen but the BBC appears to believe that tree-planting visits to primary schools by the roving McAleese is part of some “Big Picture.” I’ll say it is – it’s all part of their big picture to soften up the people of Northern Ireland into believing they are not quite British.
THE BIG PICTURE.
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David,
You lot never give up, do you?
I’m sorry that you have to share power with pesky Nationalists/Republicans and have had to give up discriminating against them!
We are all in the EU now so it doesn’t matter a jot.
Deal with it! Grow up!
Yeah, remember the good old days when we could send the B-Specials round to give those uppity Taigs a thumping?
Today she plants a tree. Next year it could be an entire herbaceous border. You really have to watch those cunning Fenians.
All of the weird things done in Ulster that cause friction between the communities — all these marches, the in-yer-face religiosity — aren’t really British.
I remember an encounter with a young Ulsterman on a crowded train leaving Webley after a concert some years ago, who, on being berated as a “Bloody Mick” by a local, protested that he “hated the Pope more than you did”, uncomprehending that we didn’t care a fig about the Bishop of Rome.
Now their customs may not be particularly Eire-Irish either, but that’s a separate matter.
David Vance
As part of advancing the territorial claim to Northern Ireland, McAleese will turn up at the opening of a letter
As you well know, in line with the Agreement, the Irish Republic has publicly and formally repudiated any claim to NI territory and has revoked those clauses in its constitution that enshrined any such claim. What’s more 94% of the people of the Republic endorsed this repudiation and revocation in a referendum.
You are banging on a broken drum.
the BBC appears to believe that tree-planting visits to primary schools by the roving McAleese is part of some “Big Picture.”
As you also well know, Education is one of the areas of mutual co-operation and interest covered by cross-border institutions set up under the Agreement.
These arrangements too have been approved by referendums in both NI and the Republic.
it’s all part of their big picture to soften up the people of Northern Ireland into believing they are not quite British.
No. It’s simply a recognition that – despite what you say • Ireland is not regarded in UK law as simply ‘another foreign country’ or like ‘any other EU state’.
There is a special relationship between the two countries enshrined in treaties, agreements and law.
This not only reflects recent developments but has long been the case. For example, Irish citizens were entitled to vote in UK elections long before we joined the EU.
There has been widespread immigration into Britain from Ireland over more than 2 centuries. As a consequence something close to 10% of Britons can claim Irish descent of a close kind (a parent or two grandparents) and approaching 24% Irish descent of a more remote sort. Even allowing for a measure of ‘romantic exaggeration’ about the degree of their Irishness, the kith-and-kin element cannot be ignored.
Your own resentment of • and hostility to • the Irish Republic, its President and even its news is simply not shared by most people in the UK.
One can understand the historical causes of this aberrant pathology, but to expect the BBC to treat it on equal terms with mainstream sentiment is asking too much.
The issue, for the first few posters, is power-sharing with TERRORISTS. Got it? Your ignorance is only exceeded by your fatuous desire to confuse. The only people being discriminated against are the thousands of next of kin of IRA/UVF/UDA who now endure the faces of the organisations that caused them so much grief hailed as heroes of peace, by the morally bankrupt. I’m clear on the issue, you evidently are not.
The point of the post, again wonderfully ignored, was the way in which the BBC’s Northern Ireland news page leads with stories concerning a foreign head of state, conflating NI with the Republic.
David Vance | Homepage | 07.04.08 – 9:10 am
The point of the post, again wonderfully ignored, was the way in which the BBC’s Northern Ireland news page leads with stories concerning a foreign head of state, conflating NI with the Republic.
And a week earlier the UK pages were full of President Sarkozy – another ‘foreign head of state’.
Was the BBC thereby conflating Britain and France?
David
If the people of NI don’t like being governed by a ragbag of former terrorists, the solution is simple – vote them out.
That day will be a long time coming though if people like you keep questioning the legitimacy of the democratic process.
David Vance
The issue…..is power-sharing with TERRORISTS.
It’s your own bloody fault. Sinn Fein wasn’t an entity at the time of the Sunningdale Agreement but the “Big Man” wasn’t having any of it and kept it going for another 20 years.
In the end, he went in to Government with the TERRORISTS.
You don’t have much sympathy on this side of the water except in certain parts of Glasgow.
Give it a rest!
I’m loving the bright orange school uniforms! at least somebody in NI has a sense of humour.
Mr Vance:
EDITED BY DV
As you have barred me from contributing from my home computer (on the grounds that I don’t understand Ulster politics and that I am prejudiced against your, ahem, mainstream view of Irish matters), is it simply a glitch that allows me to get through this morning? Or a change of heart?
.
Hillhunt,
You are barred because in the last post you made you resorted to ad hominem, and that’s it. pal. Banned. Gone. History. You add nothing here. I’ll just check to ensure you are barred. After a month, if I remember (or can be bothered, whichever) I will lift the bar and allow you back, but any more ad hominem and you will then be gone for good. I have much better things to do than engage with you.
Matt,
Anyone who opposes the apeasement of murdering terrorist scum will understand my point of view.
Jerry,
If you consider it progress to have terrorist godfathers governing you, men with blood on their hands, good luck to you. Do not expect us all to cheerlead for such.
Anonymous,
I welcome th reporting of all news but it must clearly not be misrepresented. The BBC in NI delight in misrepresentation.
PS Matt,
To whom do you refer to as “you lot”? Do you mean those of us who seek to see democracy untainted by terrorism? Do you mean those of us who believe terrorists should be in prison, not in power? Who precisely do you refer to? Stereotyping is such a juvenile game.
John Reith: “Your own resentment of • and hostility to • the Irish Republic, its President and even its news is simply not shared by most people in the UK.”
Indeed, I don’t have any resentment of the Irish Republic. I’m Catholic, I’ve lived there very happily and my mum’s Irish. I do, however, remain confused why every Irish story other than those relating to its relationship with the EU seems to get posted on the Northern Irish page nowadays. If it is an obvious cross-border story (like this one – sorry, David) then fair enough, but why is every story in Ireland put there?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7326343.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7052715.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6941951.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6277032.stm
Isn’t that going to at least confuse some international readers and others who are going to be expecting a strong Northern Irish connection in the story, which never appears. If you’re going to post stories geographically and lay out your website that way, what exactly is the overwhelming argument for taking an entirely different approach with Ireland? ‘There are close ties between the countries’ isn’t really sufficient as an argument.
Hugh’s links are indeed pretty strange…
A visit to to Northern Ireland by the Irish President is Northern Irish news. So random murder in Galway isn’t Northern Irish news.
Can’t recall any programme which didn’t present Unionists as knuckle-dragging retards. Right up there with white Rhodesians in the leftist bestiary, which is why the Beeb signed up so readily to the destruction of democracy in the Province. And the rule of law. Heard anything much about the McCartney sisters recently?
At first glance you’d think this story was about a mother arrested by police in an Irish airport. But you’d be wrong.
Mother arrested by Shannon police
Should be in the Northern Irish section. If in doubt…
David,
By “you lot” I mean those in Northern Ireland and elsewhere who don’t like to accept the will of both the Irish and British Governments and the will of the majority on voters in Northern Ireland.
Nobody won. The Republicans didn’t get a united Ireland and the Unionists have had to share power.
In my eyes, Unionist intransegence is as much to blame as Rebublican violence.
So get over it! Move on!
Rueful Red
Destruction of Democracy? Is this the Democracy which allows the majority to oppress the minority?
Hugh | 07.04.08 – 11:44 am
I do, however, remain confused why every Irish story other than those relating to its relationship with the EU seems to get posted on the Northern Irish page nowadays.
I take your point and do not have a definitive answer for you. In the past I speculated that perhaps stories processed by the BBC’s Belfast newsroom were automatically labelled ‘NI’.
That still seems to me to be the most likely explanation. Although the BBC has a Dublin office, so far as I am aware it has a tiny staff and it would seem to make sense not to duplicate the larger Belfast operation.
Other plausible reasons might include: that market research has shown a lively interest in Irish stories by residents of NI • so they are posted on the NI index for reasons of consumer convenience, experience having shown that when they are posted on the ‘Europe’ page, they are not so frequently read.
Or perhaps the policy is designed to flush out and expose conspiracy theorists? Anyone, for instance, who preferred to the dull-but-plausible reasons I set out above, the fruitcake theory that the BBC were engaged in a secret plot to bring about the downfall of the Union, could then be categorised as what they truly are. 🙂
Isn’t that going to at least confuse some international readers and others who are going to be expecting a strong Northern Irish connection in the story, which never appears.
Quite possibly.
The neatest solution would be to have a section called simply ‘Ireland’.
But one wouldn’t want them to disrupt the whole content production system or spend too much on software changes to do this. Sometimes it’s best just to live with the odd old-fashioned ‘English fudge’.
Matt,
“Nobody won”?
The thousands of next of kin of IRA murder victims endure the sight of IRA terrorist godfather Martin McGuin ness seated at the top of government and “nobody won”? Sorry, but the innocent lost.
Also, since when did a majority vote automatically mean that something is moral. Most Germans supported the Third Reich – did that validate it? Most Iraqis voted for Saddam, was that justification for his mass killing? Even Mugabe has been relying on a democratic mandate (until now) – so I’m not sure we will agree that majoritarianism = decency and morality.
John Reith
Why not set up a “Our dear neighbour the Republic of Ireland” section? Too much work? Not enough license payer tax?
David
Let’s also not forget what the Loyalists, RUC and British army got away with.
Nobody won!
John Reith: I prefer the mundane explanation too, but it’s hard not to see that the conspiracy theorists have half a point: the (surely zero-cost) option of simply posting Irish stories, wherever they happen to have been written, under Europe – a policy no one can reasonably object to – has been rejected.
Instead a policy that is confusing and is quite obviously going to annoy some unionists (and license-fee payers) has been adopted. I think it’s fair enough if they therefore conclude that the BBC is careless as to their feelings.
Were there some rather fruity posts deleted yesterday?
Sarah-Jane,
I think Hillhunt, formerly of this parish, may have had one deleted, can’t remember! It was not fruity though, wizened I would say!
I might have imagined it but the spectacular own goal of having archduke appear supportive of the BBC was scored. It went downhill from there 🙂
It may be on another of these Eire/ N.Ireland categorisation threads though.
Ah it’s in ‘A Good Year for the Roses’, it looks like a fair bit of it is still there, and I may have imagined the rest of it.
If this post achieves one thing it’s illustrate spectacularly how emotive the whole NI thing is. SO that being the case why the Beeb can’t put Irish stories in the right place and avoid p*ssing off part of its audience is beyond me.
Hugh | 07.04.08 – 3:26 pm |
I think it’s fair enough if they therefore conclude that the BBC is careless as to their feelings.
I suspect that such people are very few in number. I also suspect that no-one except David Vance has ever made a public issue of it.
On the other hand, if I am right about the ‘customer convenience’ point
– then lots of licence-fee payers are being attended to.
I can think of a compromise – if stories about the Republic were to be labeled ‘Europe’ but posted on the NI front page rather than on the Europe page, then the constitutional niceties and customer convenience could be happily reconciled.
SO that being the case why the Beeb can’t put Irish stories in the right place and avoid p*ssing off part of its audience is beyond me.
Cockney | 07.04.08 – 4:47 pm | #
Because if you look at the other thread there are people (normally critical of the way the BBC does things) who think they should be there.
You are a sensible grown-up and know that this is not bias, but a blogger’s opinion.
John Reith: I suspect that such people are very few in number.
Well, whenever serious cross-border economic schemes and the like are announced the governments in the UK and Ireland seem to think it’s worth spending a good amount of time reassuring this tiny number of people that there’s no unification by stealth going on. It’s simply not true that there’s only a tiny minority of unionists that are suspicious of the government’s attitude to a united Ireland.
I can only repeat that there’s a simple, entirely objective, unarguable case for not putting them on the Northern Irish page: they’re not Northern Irish stories. The arguments for doing so, on the other hand, are pretty questionable. If people in Northern Ireland are so interested in stories without a cross border angle, I suspect they will find them on the Europe page.
Personally, if nothing else this makes the BBC look amateurish. That’s the best that can be said about it. I think it’s an argument that a sensible grown up can make.
Cockney | 07.04.08 – 4:47 pm |
Couldn’t agree more.
Have a look at this piece from the BBC’s Jeremy McDermott on the FARC (And I’m sure the informed reader here will recall the Marxist/Leninist IRA sending three of it’s thugs to train the far-left terrorist thugs of the FARC in the building of mortars):
Colombia’s rebels: A fading force?
‘If the choice is between dying in combat and rotting away in a US prison cell, many guerrillas might choose to fight to the bitter end.’
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7217817.stm
How on earth did ‘rotting away in a US prison cell’ slip through.
Sarah Jane
Trust me, I don’t see this as a big issue and I don’t see it as a massive conspiracy, but it’s surely just an easy win. And if the BBC can’t be bothered with easy wins it’s going to get slaughtered for ever more…
Can anyone help me out with the BBC`s stance on the rigged elections in Zimbabwe.
Yes I know the Beeb have been banned from the country and, on the face of it, it seems to be giving a fairly balanced report on the events.
I was frankly amazed when I heard Orla Guerrin say that “Robert Mugabe had brought the country to its knees.”
The bit I`m having trouble with is the deathly hush about thicko Thabo Mbeki role (The man in denial over HIV/AIDS).
Mbeki has done everything possible to put obstacles in the way of removing Mugabe and just about everyone else in MSM has recognised this except the BBC. Mind you they don`t acknowledge the reverse racism taking place in South Africa or the chronic crime rate either.
Could it be anything to do with the fact that some lefty buffoon in the Beeb`s editorial policy unit has decided that the BBC must actively promote the daft idea that South Africa requires a permanent seat on the UN Security Council
Hugh/Cockney I must admit I am curious now, who says repeated posting on the same issue doesn’t have an effect. Although in my case it will be because I am intrigued by tne internal curiosity that has led to it.
I will be interested to read what David thinks of Panorama…
(Hugh – you are clearly a sensible grown-up too, hope you weren’t feeling left out)
Hillhunt,
You are barred because in the last post you made you resorted to ad hominem, and that’s it. pal. Banned. Gone. History.
David Vance | Homepage | 07.04.08 – 10:51 am |
Did I miss something?
TPO | 07.04.08 – 6:33 pm | #
TPO if you put the following search string in Google site:bbc.co.uk mbeki you will find a heft proportion of critical headlines.
My favourite ‘Mbeki accuses CIA over aids’.
This is about as critical as we get on Zimbabwe currently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7332837.stm
Now that David Vance has learned to ban and unban people perhaps he’d like to unban Biodegradable.
Or have I disqualified myself by having a spat with “Typhoo”?
Sarah Jane | 07.04.08 – 6:57 pm |
Adroitly tip toed. Yes I remember the ‘CIA Aids plot’
And sure there are some critical headlines, but why the deathly hush over Mbeki’s support for Mugabe.
And you must be aware that the Beeb has been buffing Mbeki’s reputation for some time now vis a vis this UN Security Council seat business.
I spent 3 wonderful years in NI.
88-91
At the time I was seeing the wife of a Republican and he made a great point of about how he was Irish and I was a Brit. Until the day he had to renew his passport so he could go on holiday. The British one was cheaper than the Irish one so cheap skate that he was he became British for the next 10 years. And he thought I was only keeping the British end up in my line of work…
David,
Many times this blog has mentioned freedom of speech, this means that although we do not have to like some of the comments posted here we still allow the poster to contribute to whatever issue is being discussed.
I rarely agree with Hillhunt, however, he does at least defend his position with passion, unlike the BBC this site does at least try and give a voice to dissenting parties, I think that you have made your point to him and others very clear, now show that you are the better person by allowing him back on to post.
“In the end, he went in to Government with the TERRORISTS.”
I presume the poster was referring to Paisley snr. At St Andrew’s, Peter Hain threatened Paisley and McGuinness/Adams (i’m not sure which is which to be honest) to power-share or Blair would withdraw devolution and introduce water meters and scrap grammar schools. Paisley begrudgingly jumped into bed with the terrorists, though I agree that his intentions weren’t purely saintly (haha) as he obviously wanted power as opposed to solely caring about the Province’s pockets and education.
Anyway, the BBC is definitely a wee bit biased towards the Nationalist view point, I could drudge up the evidence but it would take to much time and is really not worth the effort as it would change nothing. It’s like with Israel, it’s always the Israelis who “murder innocent Palestinians” even though it’s often Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah (delete as appropriate, i’m not sure which are the ones in Palestine) “headquarters” that get bombed. when rockets are fired at schools, and children massacred by a crazy Palestinian gunman there isn’t the same demonisation. As I recall, the BBC reporter spent most of the time talking about the Gaza strip problem, than about the kids that were murdered in cold blood.
And to all those above who laugh at the clumsy and ill-disguised wording of our friend David, he’s not wrong. Sure he appears foolish and bigotted, and he probably is, but the point he so ineloquently made is actually quite close to the truth, and too close to the bone for most people. We all know Norn Iron will soon be a part of the Republic, but it will be even sooner if the BBC has its way.
I’m sorry that you have to share power with pesky Nationalists/Republicans and have had to give up discriminating against them!
Quite right, but we don’t have to share power with a foreign country in the fucking south…so YOU should grow up and get over it.
It seems hilarious to the likes of me that you want the South to have such power over the North as you are literally an irrelevance in the South…LMAO! They think you lot are nothing but a sad, criminal, mafia like joke waiting to be jailed by the Garda!!
If the people of NI don’t like being governed by a ragbag of former terrorists, the solution is simple – vote them out.
That day will be a long time coming though if people like you keep questioning the legitimacy of the democratic process.
Yep, wuite right, and if you tell them not to beat you anymore or intimidate they will stop that too.
A simple reminder that drug dealing and robbing banks and PO’s is illegal will make them stop.
Cretin.
And you must be aware that the Beeb has been buffing Mbeki’s reputation for some time now vis a vis this UN Security Council seat business.
TPO | 07.04.08 – 7:12 pm | #
Not surprisingly, I’ve missed this. We’ve actually been pretty critical of SA recently as you ask – Simpson’s pieces from there have definitely changed in tone.
We will need somewhere to be banned from when Zimbabwe sorts itself out and we are allowed back in 😉
Shotgun
Remember that there are two sides to this story.
I know that Unionists argue that they have always been in the right and that “the Troubles” were none of their making.
Wrong!
The illegality has been on both sides.
As for sharing power with a foreign country – tough! Let the ballot box prevail, unless you want Gerrymandering to return.
Why are there so many Irish stories here thesedays? Just let it go & be done with it.Most folk here couldn’t give a toss.
Biodegrade
I wasn’t aware that you were banned and I see nothing in your behaviour here during my time why you should be banned; If you are posting how are you banned exactly?
Joe,
Hillhunt isn’t gone for good, he’s just having a rest.
Matt,
You’re talking crap. Unionists DO NOT think they were always in the right. I am merely pointing out that seating terrorists and murderers in government is depraved.
Bon Labrousse
Your sophisticated wordplay leaves me speechless.
but mary macaleese is actually “British”, by your definition Mr Vance.
she was born and brought up in Belfast.
why would you be upset about a British citizen being President of Ireland – surely it should be the “other lot” that would be more upset about that?
in any case, it matters not a jot now , since our masters reside in Brussels