. It’s Friday and the BBC as ever is running a series of stories aimed at undermining the image of Israel. First up, at 6.55am on the Today programme we had an item on the “Investment conference” for the West Bank and Gaza. (Judea and Samaria) The key theme here was that these were great places to invest (!!!) but that the fact that those pesky Jews have such strict border restrictions in place does make such financial investment so much more difficult. Not a mention WHY Israel needs to have such strict security arrangements and not a mention of the fact that the savages in Hamas (My apologies to those tender souls who may object to me labelling Hamas as such but there you go, it’s accurate) have given Israel no choice in this matter whatsoever. Throughout it’s coverage of this region, the BBC consistently downplays the atrocious behaviour of the Palestinians who wallow in their own depravity. Then, having shilled for Hamas, the BBC runs a news item entitled “Blair jet faced Israeli warplanes”. My god, isn’t it bad enough that Israel denies Hamas the right to slaughter its citizens without confronting Mr Blair at 35,000 feet? Turns out that the story reduces to the fact that the jet carrying the former great leader failed to identify itself as it crossed Israeli air space. A better headline might have been “Israeli jets confront unidentified aircraft” but then why miss a chance to imply how aggrssive the Israelis are?
THOSE BAD ISRAELIS
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Err, no: you said that allegedly, it was established by Mossad.
Any more lies you’d care to have taken into consideration while you’re at it?
Anyone with an ounce of sense can find these links…
So why can’t you?
… the allegation was made in a popular Jewish newspaper (that also happens to have a right-wing leaning).
Well, of course, being “Jewish” (not Israeli?) it’d have to have “a right-wing leaning” wouldn’t it?
Either present us with this much vaunted “documentation” or FOAD.
A Sock Puppet – Sometime today.
If you look hard enough, you will find reference to this eminating from the University of Jerusalem and by a top ranking politician. Both of which are (obviously) Jewish.
And if your wooly persona was not so anti-semetic you would know that the University of Jerusalem is open to all people of all faiths and is therefore not Jewish and that, unlike the savages in Palestinian areas, Israel has MANY non-Jewish politicians in the Knesset and well over 20% non-Jewish citizens.
So no, there is no obviously about it – Israeli does not always equate to Jew.
Now how many Jews are allowed to live in Palestinian held areas?
Nearly Oxfordian:
Err, no: you said that allegedly, it was established by Mossad.
Any more lies you’d care to have taken into consideration while you’re at it?
Nearly Oxfordian | 23.05.08 – 8:12 pm | #
At 3.42pm? Let’s look shall we?
korova:
Firstly, Jack Bauer, the ‘revelation’ that the Israelis helped established Hamas is not new. Even Olmert has admitted this publicly (it is well documented, do a Google search and you should find it). But then, as Olmert is clearly ‘left-wing’, perhaps this is ‘sewage’.
korova | 23.05.08 – 3:42 pm | #
No, there it is, as I said. And yes, I stand by the original comment that Mossad allegedly ‘established’ Hamas. It has been alleged and it is in the public domain. And yes, again, according to one top official, the Israeli government has been responsible for “establishing Hamas”.
Biodegradable – Why do you always resort to personal attacks? It really rather demeans this website and does nothing to encourage those that might be persuaded that this blog has a valid point.
Show us the links or just fuck off please korova.
Nobody believes a word you say unless you prove it’s so!
Why do you always resort to personal attacks?
Not always, only when total pricks like you consistently fail to present proof of their allegations.
if it’s so fucking easy just give us the fucking links!
(Apologies to David Vance and the ladies for my use of profanities)
Again. Please tone the language down.
Again. Give us the links or go away.
Biodegradable,
This is probably the company korova keeps:
Puppet On A String: Hamas Dances To Israel’s Tune
Note all the substantiation provided to the claims. Or not. Then have a look at the rest of the site, and all will become clear.
Good God no. They believe that ridiculous ‘Loose Change’ nonsense. In fact, many anarchists reject their arguments and some even suggest that they are government agents who are attempting to discredit revolutionary social movements. Quite frankly, they are barking mad.
No, the source for the claim that the Israelis helped establish Hamas actually comes from the Jerusalem Post.
How much can change in one day.
Gunner.. Not behind the door when asking someone else to do the heavy lifting for you, if you want that degree of information try doing the homework yourself.
field.size | 22.05.08 – 5:47 pm
You seem to think I am here to provide you with endless detail. David Vance | Homepage | 22.05.08 – 6:00 pm |
gunnar, I’m really not comparing you to our canine friends, for whom I have the greatest respect and affection, but you are like a dog with an old bone.
Biodegradable | 22.05.08 – 6:59 pm |
Or a lazy student who doesn’t even know how to use Google to copy-paste homework projects …
Nearly Oxfordian | 22.05.08 – 7:21 pm |
And did you have time to check Mr Vance’s source material yet.
BTW, how are we doing with regards to being civilised?
Gunnar – See Biodegradable’s comments at 8:35pm. Not doing well by the looks of it.
Hi Korova,
But at least he’s got a sense of humour (or perhaps it is short term memory loss, who knows).
I am off for tonight. Take care. Sure David will provide us with more well researched information tomorrow and we can all start again 🙂
Nobody believes a word you say unless you prove it’s so!
Biodegradable | 23.05.08 – 8:32 pm |
Very true, he does have some sense of humour!
“mainstream media that spins the issue so that these atrocities somehow represent the wishes of the Palestinian people”
Barking mad.
“I am off for tonight. Take care. Sure David will provide us with more well researched information tomorrow”
As compared with the lunatic ranting of your pseudo-anarchist troll friend?
Biodegradable and Jack Bauer:
This is probably the company korova keeps:
Puppet On A String: Hamas Dances to Israel’s Tune
Note substantiations provided. Or not. Then have a look at the rest of the site, and all will become clear.
Sorry, ignore the above duplicate post, which korova refutes. Haloscan is still weird today on my end, and comments keep disappearing.
korova has already denied that he shares sympathies with one group who alleges that Israel founded Hamas, but there are plenty more where that came from.
Closer to the actual truth – which korova doesn’t want us to think about, since it’s more fun to throw the stink bomb – is that at one point Israel tried to engage with Hamas as a counterbalance to the PLO. This is typical factional strife, engaged in by lots of people over history. However, it does not even for a second mean that Israel founded Hamas. So korova is probably lying about what he read, and will continue to promote the allegation.
Analysis: Hamas history tied to Israel
This was also reproduced by the UPI at some point. Further, korova will never show you guys that Jerusalem Post link because he has never seen it himself. He only read about it as a source listed as a footnote for something, quite possibly this:
How Sharon and the Likud Party nurtured the rise of Hamas and benefit from its terrorism
For more laughs, follow the “About MMN” link at the top of the list on the left of the page, and check the name at the bottom of the article.
Am I getting warmer?
No, the source for the claim that the Israelis helped establish Hamas actually comes from the Jerusalem Post.
korova | 23.05.08 – 8:55 pm
Link please.
David Preiser (USA) | 23.05.08 – 9:51 pm
Indeed, lots of unsourced allegations and accusations. Lots of lies repeated enough times so that those who want to believe them do.
I’m still waiting for just one link from korova.
On the other hand I have provided a link that does show that Israel did provide backing for Hamas, when it wasn’t Hamas and when it was actually doing something useful for the “Palestinians”, like providing schools and clinics. korova has preferred not to comment on that.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/6980329790174376469/#399923
Links to back your accusations korova?
(hint: they start with “http://”)
Am I getting warmer?
David Preiser (USA) | 23.05.08 – 10:11 pm
So warm that I imagine korova has broken out in a sweat.
from your last link:
Hamas used the money to operate a network of schools, medical clinics, social service agencies, religious institutions and provide direct services to the poverty stricken Palestinian population.
…
Israel’s Likud government permitted Yassin to launch a newspaper and to set up charitable fundraising organizations. With funding Yassin raised and with Israeli funds directed through the Village Leagues, the Islamic Association built new mosques, new schools, hospitals and medical clinics. The group established social service and humanitarian agencies and even job creation venues. Despite its later turn to armed struggle and suicide bombings, Hamas meticulously directed nearly 95 percent of the funds it raised to these worthy humanitarian projects
…
Yassin was not initially involved with violence. Most of the violence was directed either by Arafat’s Al-Fatah organization, based in Lebanon, or by the other PLO umbrella partners like the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
…
Initially, the Moslem Brotherhood and Sheik Yassin’s Islamic Association were not supportive of armed struggle against Israel.
Dave – can you point to where i said israel ‘founded’ hamas?
Dave – can you point to where i said israel ‘founded’ hamas?
You said Israel (MOSSAD) “established” Hamas:
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/6980329790174376469/#399869
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/6980329790174376469/#399957
Why are you squirming now? Pedantry won’t get you out of the hole you’ve dug yourself into.
I think I’ve found your source:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2912878405399014351
Now, where’s your link korova?
“I personally believe EVERYTHING the CIA says. Google it people”
Stop it, Jack. You made me spill my coffee 😉
My goodness, the troll thinks s/he/it can get out of the hole by claiming that ‘established’ is not the same as ‘founded’. My cat has a better brain than that.
I think we have a serious case of internetitis here. Hillhunt, Korova, Gunnar, Alex and countless others who have come on to this site appear to be addicted to the argument itself and generally unwilling or unable to do the minimum of genuine research to back up their points. I imagine that they flit around from blog to blog like spongers gatecrashing numerous parties on a Saturday night and leaving just before people get tired enough of them to throw them out.
It’s tiresome having to continually remind them that the site is about BBC bias and not designed to feed people’s egos and craving for attention.
18 posts on this single thread alone and korova manages one link, to The Times…
The headline of the article on the Israeli jets and Blair is interesting:
Blair jet faced Israeli warplanes
Right under that we have a photo of Blair with the caption mentioning that he is the envoy for the Quartet.
Those warmongering Israelis threatening a man trying to promote peace?
Funny that there is absolutely no bias if the article is divorced from the headline and photo. It’s just straight reporting. I suppose what happened here was that the little people who engineer the BBC website felt they had to put their little anti-Israel spin on a factual report. Something coming out of the BBC that doesn’t have even the slightest impicit condemnation of Israel? Can’t have that!
This is subtle bias but I have no doubt that the BBC “News” website has been thoroughly infested with the worst of the BBC’s propagandists, tirelessly pushing their narrow agenda.
Sock puppets like korova and gunnar give real puppets a bad name!
Bye bye everybody, bye bye
Biodegradable – Nope. And while I am at it, two points:
1) I could not give a toss whether Israel funded Hamas before it turned to violence. My point was, as you like to repeat, that Mossad/Israel established Hamas. Whether they intended the development of Hamas into it’s current form or not is possibly debatable, but it is not my central point.
2) You and I know very well that even if I posted a quote from an Israeli Prime Minister admitting that previous Israeli governments had helped to establish Hamas, you would try and twist the evidence. I have witnessed enough of your comments in the past to know that even the most conclusive evidence is somehow debatable in your eyes. Consequently, I am happy with my links and, as I have said before, given you are an intelligent soul, you are more than capable of finding them yourself (although judging by the links you have posted so far, perhaps not).
Nearly Oxfordian – “My goodness, the troll thinks s/he/it can get out of the hole by claiming that ‘established’ is not the same as ‘founded’.”
There is a very good reason why I have only ever said that they established Hamas and not founded. Believe me, I am not picking this up to ‘get out of a hole’, it is simply because on every post I have only ever said established.
One other thing:
You said Israel (MOSSAD) “established” Hamas:
As your subsequent links show, regarding Mossad I actually said:
korova:
Incidentally, given that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, if Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’, what does it make those that established them?
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm | #
Petty, maybe but let’s stick to facts.
I am off for tonight. Take care. Sure David will provide us with more well researched information tomorrow”
As compared with the lunatic ranting of your pseudo-anarchist troll friend?
Nearly Oxfordian | 23.05.08 – 9:20 pm |
Hi Nearly Oxfordian
I have now compared David’s sources with his assertions on a couple of threads. Neither he nor you could confirm that he’s got his sourcing right.
Just look above and a couple of threads below. If you can come back and prove that David did not misrepresent than I am all ears and eyes and happy to apologies.
So please listen to the interview and tell me whether David’s assertion is correct.
The key theme here was that these were great places to invest (!!!) but that the fact that those pesky Jews have such strict border restrictions in place does make such financial investment so much more difficult. Not a mention WHY Israel needs to have such strict security arrangements
Go back to the “Today” website, click on listen again and find the interview. It starts at 18:58 minutes. I have transcribed below which starts around 21:51:
Because the border crossing have been closed to put pressure on Hamas, to put pressure on the militants, who fire rockets across the border
Do you seriously support David’s assertion?
Again. Please tone the language down.
korova | Homepage | 23.05.08 – 8:36 pm
S’funny how Korova is so fussy about bad language here when at the Korova shite blog there is plenty of “right wing shit head” tags and “c*nt of the week” headlines.
Twat.
1) I could not give a toss whether Israel funded Hamas before it turned to violence. My point was, as you like to repeat, that Mossad/Israel established Hamas.
You haven’t proved that assertion. You haven’t even tried.
You say your allegation is documented – show us the documentation.
How many times have I asked you to do that and for how long are you going to fail to do so? It’s absolutely absurd for you to continue insisting like this without referring to any concrete source whatsoever. You can repeat it ’til the cows come home but that doesn’t make it true.
2) You and I know very well that even if I posted a quote from an Israeli Prime Minister admitting that previous Israeli governments had helped to establish Hamas, you would try and twist the evidence.
If you’re going to accuse me of “twisting the evidence” you’d better be able to prove that too!
Post the quote and let’s see. I’m not the only one here capable of judging its worth.
I’ve already posted quotes, from anti-Israel sources, that I accept as indicating that Israel did indeed give backing and funds to the organisation that later became Hamas. You don’t accept that and have twisted those facts, or rather you’ve said, “I could not give a toss whether Israel funded Hamas before it turned to violence.”
Well, frankly my dear, in that case, I couldn’t give a toss about your accusations if you can’t or won’t back them up!
Consequently, I am happy with my links and, as I have said before, given you are an intelligent soul, you are more than capable of finding them yourself
If you’re happy let’s see the link(s) that convince you that your allegation is valid. Or are you simply happy to believe any old lie that maintains your hatred of Israel?
I’ve been able to find no such link, but then again I’ve not looked for it specifically. That’s your job, not mine.
Like I’ve said more than once – if you make allegations it’s up to you to show proof of their validity. That’s how it works in the world of grown-ups.
The truth is you can’t back up your claims any more than David Icke can back up his.
You can’t show that Olmert has “confessed” that Israel established Hamas because it’s a lie.
You’d like it to be so but it simply isn’t.
I’ve wasted far too much time on you. As on previous occasions you’re exposed as a liar and a fake for all to see. You’re pathetic. You just don’t know when to shut up.
Either show us this famous quote with a link or stop pestering me.
CORRECTION
There’s been some confusion: I just Googled it, and It wasn’t Mossad that formed Hamas, it was Moss Bros.
That’s why they are always the best dressed terror group in the Middle East.
Jack,
If only I’d known earlier I could have saved myself an awful lot of effort!
the best dressed terror group in the Middle East
Nice line in ladies and childrens’ wear:
http://plasticarmy.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/hamas_bomber.jpg
And what was I saying about Arabs and Nazis?
http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=Hamas+salute&btnG=Search+Images
Funny. When the US invaded Venezuela’s airspace, the US was the aggressor.
“Will you walk a little faster?” said a whiting to a snail.
“There’s a porpoise close behind us, and he’s treading on my tail.
See how eagerly the lobsters and the turtles all advance!
They are waiting on the shingle – will you come and join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, won’t you join the dance?
“You can really have no notion how delightful it will be
When they take us up and throw us, with the lobsters, out to sea!”
But the snail replied “Too far, too far!” and gave a look askance –
Said he thanked the whiting kindly, but he would not join the dance.
Would not, could not, would not, could not, would not join the dance.
Would not, could not, would not, could not, could not join the dance.
“What matters it how far we go?” his scaly friend replied.
“There is another shore, you know, upon the other side.
The further off from England the nearer is to France –
Then turn not pale, beloved snail, but come and join the dance.
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, won’t you join the dance?”
— Lewis Carroll
note the phrasing…”warplane” as opposed to just “military aircraft” or “jet”… implying that israeli planes are always waging “war”.
Korova, the self-proclaimed model of consistency and integrity:
There is a very good reason why I have only ever said that they established Hamas and not founded. Believe me, I am not picking this up to ‘get out of a hole’, it is simply because on every post I have only ever said established.
korova | Homepage | 24.05.08 – 12:07 am
Yet it has this to say as part of the same comment, my emphasis in bold:
Whether [Israel/Hamas] intended the development of Hamas into it’s current form or not is possibly debatable, but it is not my central point.
In other words, this thing that calls itself “Korova” thinks an argument can be made that Israel intended the developement of a terrorist nest on her border responsible for endless acts of slaughter of Israeli civilians through suicide bombing and Kassam rockets.
The next logical step to this model example of consistency and integrity in debate is that it is “possible” that Israel welcomes Hamas terrorism in order to discredit the terrorists and gain sympathy for Israel.
This is pure anti-Semitism and scroll territory for me from now on.
Quite so, Bryan. I have no doubt about that either. A real journalist would have used a term such as ‘interceptors’, which these certainly were.
Bryan – I said ‘possibly’ debatable. I did not indicate on which said of the debate I stand. In fact, I would argue that they did not intend Hamas to turn out this way. However, this doesn’t contradict my continually repeated refrain that Israel (and allegedly Mossad) established Hamas.
For ‘said’ read ‘side’.
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm
A few miles above on this thread I asked What was your point?
(“Whether that allegation is true, completely false, a bit true, has elements of truth, or seemed like a good idea at the time, it has little bearing on what Hamas has turned into and what it is now. )(Nazi emulating morally bereft savages)
I said it was a rhetorical question because I could see circular dead end argument approaching. Which your annoyingness succeeded in provoking.
My points were:
There are many allegations that Mossad is responsible for all sorts of things.
But irrelevant because Hamas evolved from whatever it was in the beginning to what it is now.
From a play, (possibly ‘Waiting for Godot’)
Recriminatory offspring to parent: “Why did you engender me?”
Parent “I didn’t know it was going to be you.”
Even if Mossad had planted, watered and potted them on, what were you insinuating when you brought up that debatable allegation and then asked “what does it make those that established them?”
Bryan | 24.05.08 – 8:52 a
In other words, this thing that calls itself “Korova” thinks an argument can be made that Israel intended the development of a terrorist nest on her border responsible for endless acts of slaughter of Israeli civilians through suicide bombing and Kassam rockets.
Bryan is exactly right. Just seems gratuitously nasty to me. Is that all your point was?
Troll continues to move the goalposts:
“this doesn’t contradict my continually repeated refrain that Israel (and allegedly Mossad) established Hamas”
So now – always assuming that troll has the slightest clue about English syntax – s/he/it says that Israel definitely established Hamas, and it is alleged that this was done through Mossad.
Any proof? Any slightest shred of evidence?
“Israel definitely established Hamas”
According to the source of this quote, yes:
“Netanyahu [when Prime Minister] established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom.”
Sue | 24.05.08 – 10:25 am,
Thanks for your vote of confidence. Korova’s possibility can only be considered by the morally bankrupt.
Nearly Oxfordian | 24.05.08 – 9:25 am,
BBC hacks would use the excuse that they are limited to 33 characters or so in headlines and that ‘interceptors’ is too long.
Blair jet faced Israeli warplanes consists of 34 characters.
So what would be wrong with
Israeli jets intercept Blair plane, also 34 characters.
The character of BBC bias.
According to the source of this quote, yes:
“Netanyahu [when Prime Minister] established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom.”
korova | 24.05.08 – 11:11 am
Who is the source of this quote? (link required)
Is the source of this quote speaking about documented evidence of his/her claim? (link required)
Is the source of this quote expressing only his/her opinion, as you are? (link required)
Is the source claiming that the “establishment” of Sheikh Yassin was deliberately intended to create what we now know as Hamas? (link required)
Still no link korova – selective, unattributed quotes don’t pass muster.
In other words, this thing that calls itself “Korova” thinks an argument can be made that Israel intended the developement of a terrorist nest on her border responsible for endless acts of slaughter of Israeli civilians through suicide bombing and Kassam rockets.
The next logical step to this model example of consistency and integrity in debate is that it is “possible” that Israel welcomes Hamas terrorism in order to discredit the terrorists and gain sympathy for Israel.
This is pure anti-Semitism and scroll territory for me from now on.
Bryan | 24.05.08 – 8:52 am
Very similar, almost indistinguishable in fact, to the “allegation” that the Zionist movement collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust in order to encourage European Jews to flee to “Palestine”.
korova should use google to search the sources of that “allegation” to see what sort of people promote it – he’d find himself among friends I’m sure.
The irony is that while the likes of korova accuse Jews in being complicit in causing their own suffering it is the Arabs who happily sacrifice their own in order to blame the Jews. That is why Hamas and Hezbollah operate from civilian areas, even setting up missile launchers in school yards. Their is no doubt that Arab civilians killed by Israel have far more positive publicity value for the Arabs than for Israel. In fact as I’ve noted many times before murdered Israelis are often not reported at all, or mentioned as an aside.
korova, like the Arabs he sympathizes with, continues to demonstrate his depravity and lack of humanity at every opportunity.
… the “allegation” that the Zionist movement collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust in order to encourage European Jews to flee to “Palestine”.
Which is exactly the tactic the Arabs used to cause the Arabs to flee “Palestine” in 1948. Arabs were told to leave so that Arab armies could slaughter all the Jews without putting their Arab brothers at risk, or alternatively they were told horror stories of Israelis massacring Arabs in order to frighten them out of their homes.
It’s amazing how much of what Arabs accuse Israel of doing is instead exactly what the Arabs do to themselves. And the gullible and ill intentioned believe it.