. It’s Friday and the BBC as ever is running a series of stories aimed at undermining the image of Israel. First up, at 6.55am on the Today programme we had an item on the “Investment conference” for the West Bank and Gaza. (Judea and Samaria) The key theme here was that these were great places to invest (!!!) but that the fact that those pesky Jews have such strict border restrictions in place does make such financial investment so much more difficult. Not a mention WHY Israel needs to have such strict security arrangements and not a mention of the fact that the savages in Hamas (My apologies to those tender souls who may object to me labelling Hamas as such but there you go, it’s accurate) have given Israel no choice in this matter whatsoever. Throughout it’s coverage of this region, the BBC consistently downplays the atrocious behaviour of the Palestinians who wallow in their own depravity. Then, having shilled for Hamas, the BBC runs a news item entitled “Blair jet faced Israeli warplanes”. My god, isn’t it bad enough that Israel denies Hamas the right to slaughter its citizens without confronting Mr Blair at 35,000 feet? Turns out that the story reduces to the fact that the jet carrying the former great leader failed to identify itself as it crossed Israeli air space. A better headline might have been “Israeli jets confront unidentified aircraft” but then why miss a chance to imply how aggrssive the Israelis are?
THOSE BAD ISRAELIS
Bookmark the permalink.
Very similar, almost indistinguishable in fact, to the “allegation” that the Zionist movement collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust in order to encourage European Jews to flee to “Palestine”.
Yes, that “allegation” is what we historians call “bullshit”. Only scum would make such a link between Zionism and Nazism.
The irony is that while the likes of korova accuse Jews in being complicit in causing their own suffering it is the Arabs who happily sacrifice their own in order to blame the Jews.
Can you point to where I have declared my support for this?
Good points, Biodegradable. The Arabs are masters at hijacking the essence of Jewish and other histories and presenting them as their own to a naive and easily-deluded West.
Who is the source of this quote?
The Israeli Prime Minister (who, according to Bryan, is some kind of anti-Semite).
Is the source of this quote speaking about documented evidence of his/her claim?
Given the answer above, I am sure they must be privy to documentation neither you or I have ever seen.
Is the source of this quote expressing only his/her opinion, as you are?
Given that this is an informed opinion (see above), I’m guessing it is fairly authoratative.
Is the source claiming that the “establishment” of Sheikh Yassin was deliberately intended to create what we now know as Hamas?
Good question. Hard to say really. Which is why I have never claimed that it was a “deliberate” ploy to create the current organisation.
Yes, that “allegation” is what we historians call “bullshit”. Only scum would make such a link between Zionism and Nazism.
Oh, so you’re a “historian” now are you? You and your friend David Irvine both!
Who is the source of this quote?
I want A LINK. I don’t want your interpretation of anything. I want to see a link that backs up your claims, not more “assumptions” or “guesses”. I want to SEE FOR MYSELF the actual material on which you base your allegations. I don’t want your interpretation or anybody else’s, I want to make my own mind up.
If you don’t have one, own up, apologise for wasting everybody’s time and go away.
I have never claimed that it was a “deliberate” ploy to create the current organisation.
You’re taking the piss, right?
You have stated unequivocally and continuously that Israel/Mossad ‘established’ Hamas.
Are you now changing the goal posts yet again and saying Israel did, but it didn’t mean to, it was all an accident?
Are you now going to accept the version that I accept, ie: Israel aided Sheik Yassin when his organization was non-violent and dedicated to helping the “Palestinians” with charity work, clinics, schools and mosques?
Provide a link to the basis of your allegations and let’s get this over and done with once and for all.
Nearly Oxfordian:
“I personally believe EVERYTHING the CIA says. Google it people”
Stop it, Jack. You made me spill my coffee
Sorry… that coffee stain can be a bugger to get out. Just like that Nu-Labrat stain we’ve been saddled with lo these long years.
“Yes, that “allegation” is what we historians”
ROFLMAO
A lying troll calls itself a ‘historian’.
“The irony is that while the likes of korova accuse Jews in being complicit in causing their own suffering it is the Arabs who happily sacrifice their own in order to blame the Jews.
Can you point to where I have declared my support for this?”
Nobody has claimed that you ‘support’ anything. Please do yourself a favour and learn to read, oh great historian. What we are saying is that you claim, repeatedly and without a shred of evidence, that Israel has set up (are you happy with ‘set up’? Is that close enough to your sacred ‘established’ and far enough away from the no-no term ‘founded’?) Hamas, and that there is a debatable possibility that Israel did this in such a way that it is complicit in causing the suffering of Israelis.
Except, of course, when you have moved the goalposts and claimed something different entirely.
All this to-ing and fro-ing has not produced an answer from our esteemed historian to my twice asked question
“………what were you insinuating when you brought up that debatable allegation and then asked “what does it make those that established them?”
For all Korova’s denials of supporting those who link Zionism and Nazism, it seems his original post was insinuating something pretty similar. No?
So if not that, what exactly were you getting at Korova?
As much fun as it is to see the ‘Great Historian’ twist and squirm as its lies and moral bankruptcy are exposed, it has succeeded in the aim of all trolls, deflect debate from the original post of David.
Do NO Feed the Trolls!
above is me, not sure how the hell that name got in!
Thanks Sue for reminding us how this all started:
Incidentally, given that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, if Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’, what does it make those that established them?
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm
Let’s forget about proof of the “allegation” for now shall we, and ask korova to answer its own question. And while it’s at it perhaps it could also explain why it disagrees with the definition of Hamas as ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’.
Well korova, as you believe, and say you have proof, that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, just for the sake of argument, what does that make Mossad, Israel and the Jews, in your eyes?
above is me, not sure how the hell that name got in!
JG | 24.05.08 – 2:49 pm
It’s the Jewish Lobby™, Mossad®, The Zionist Occupied Government, The Lizards…
😉
Haloscan is playing silly buggers today.
Nearly Oxfordian:
Haloscan is playing silly buggers today.
Nearly Oxfordian | 24.05.08 – 2:58 pm |
Echoing bio — it’s probably Mossad which is controlling the vertical, the horizontal and the haloscan.
Or maybe Moss Bros (sorry, I just like that gag so much I had to repeat it.)
“…if the telephone is busy,
if your bathtub springs a leak,
if receipts don’t tally up right,
if your lager tastes too weak,
if the cake runs out on sunday,
if the Prince of Wales is gay,
If the bedstead creeks at nightime,
if your poodle’s stool is grey,
chorus: The Jews are all to blame for it!
To blame, to blame , to blame for it!
Why so, why are the jews to blame?
My child, don’t ask, they’re just to blame…”
from German cabaret song 1931
(to be sung to Habanera from Carmen if you fancy giving it a go, gentlemen…)
Sue:
“………what were you insinuating when you brought up that debatable allegation and then asked “what does it make those that established them?”
Let’s make this as simple as possible. I started this off by writing:
korova:
Incidentally, given that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, if Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’, what does it make those that established them?
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm | #
Given that the Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’ and given that the Israeli Prime Minister stated that Netanyahu “established Hamas”, it begs the question, what do you then make of Netanyahu? That’s all. No insinuation. No broader point. Just the simple question.
What is interesting is that even Biodegradable accepts the original point which is why he is now trying to shift the goalposts on to why I asked the question rather than asking for the evidence.
I do not believe it was the intention of turning Hamas into a murdering organisation. Which is why I never made that claim and why I have not strayed from the simple point that the Israeli government “established Hamas” (not “set-up”, not “founded”, established is the exact word I have used continuosly).
Nearly Oxfordian: Nobody has claimed that you ‘support’ anything.
So you accept that Biodegradable’s attempts to draw a comparioson between those that “accuse Jews of being complicit in causing their own suffering it is the Arabs who happily sacrifice their own in order to blame the Jews” and myself is meaningless?
What is interesting is that even Biodegradable accepts the original point…
No I most certainly do not!
I said this:
Let’s forget about proof of the “allegation” for now shall we, and ask korova to answer its own question.
You still haven’t answered your own question.
… which is why he is now trying to shift the goalposts on to why I asked the question rather than asking for the evidence.
I’m not shifting any goal posts. I’m still asking you to provide evidence (where is it korova?).
I, and Sue, and others also have a legitimate interest in hearing your reasons for asking that (rhetorical?) question in the way you did, based on an unfounded allegation.
It’s a valid question, specially considering you still refuse to prove your allegation.
Why did you make that allegation? What was your point? How do you see Israel, Mossad and the Jews?
I also said this:
Well korova, as you believe, and say you have proof, that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, just for the sake of argument, what does that make Mossad, Israel and the Jews, in your eyes?
Well?
You make allegations that you won’t or can’t back up with facts.
You accuse Israel of ‘establishing’ a terrorist gang for its own evil ends.
You draw similarities between Hamas and Israel who you accuse, without proof, of ‘establishing’ it.
You play with words, you lie, you evade, you attempt to deceive. You are transparently evil and devious. You are, in short, a nasty piece of work.
Now korova claims it was Netanyahu who ‘admitted’ that Mossad had ‘established’ Hamas.
Curious, because originally korova claimed it was Olmert. All these Jews look the same huh?
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/6980329790174376469/#399904
korova:
Firstly, Jack Bauer, the ‘revelation’ that the Israelis helped established Hamas is not new. Even Olmert has admitted this publicly (it is well documented, do a Google search and you should find it). But then, as Olmert is clearly ‘left-wing’, perhaps this is ‘sewage’.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/6980329790174376469/#400057
“Israel definitely established Hamas”
According to the source of this quote, yes:
“Netanyahu [when Prime Minister] established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom.”
korova | 24.05.08 – 11:11 am
Give us the link!
korova | 24.05.08 – 3:31 pm
Korova, thanks for answering.
Have you managed to make one giant leap for mankind to that mystifying conclusion? You started off by saying it was alleged that Mossad established Hamas. You asked what that makes those that established Hamas. i.e., What does that make Mossad?
Asking that implies that you believe either that Mossad had some mysterious double bluffing intentions by establishing what they knew all along was a murderous organisation, (Hamas )-
or
that Mossad were foolishly inveigled into establishing Hamas for some other reason.
The argument went on and on, veered out of control and eventually arrived at a point whereby it was accepted that somewhere someone said that Netanyahu or the Israeli government established Hamas. Not really a concession, but if you like to think of it as such, good.
You alone set out the goalposts, which in my view had very little to do with who said what or whether they could prove it.
The goal post you set out was the original question you posed i.e. “what does it make those that established them?”
That was the crux of what was offensive, the other strand of the argument (Mossad=Hamas) was more of a taunt, since it was an allegation, and proving it, or otherwise, was a distraction.
Now you are acting exactly like John Reith, in a manner I think of as “Shake it up Baby, Twist and Shout”
You are the master of moving goalposts my friend, and if you are now saying that your only point was ‘What do you make of Netanyahu?’
Well, why don’t you tell us what You make of Netanyahu?
Bio and I must have been posting at nearly the same time. I think we are making similar points. Sorry
Sue,
No problem. You’re more concise and eloquent than me 😉
In any case I hope korova realises that his dishonesty is clear for all to see, and that I’m not the only one who sees through his game. Although as a troll korova has won in that this entire thread has centered around it’s pig headedness. My apologies for that.
As TPO reminded me, some time ago I sent korova off with it’s tail between its legs after exposing its lies. I would have hoped that it would have served as a lesson, but either trolls are masochists or they have no shame.
“why I have not strayed from the simple point that the Israeli government “established Hamas” (not “set-up”, not “founded”, established is the exact word I have used continuosly)”
I’d love to see the troll tying itself up in knots, trying to define the precise difference between those terms.
-Nearly Oxfordian: Nobody has claimed that you ‘support’ anything.
-So you accept that Biodegradable’s attempts to draw a comparioson between those that “accuse Jews of being complicit in causing their own suffering it is the Arabs who happily sacrifice their own in order to blame the Jews” and myself is meaningless?
No, I don’t. I accept nothing of the sort. What I did, and said so clearly at the time (not that you are capable of reading and understanding a simple English paragraph), was this:
Nobody has claimed that you ‘support’ anything. Please do yourself a favour and learn to read, oh great historian. What we are saying is that you claim, repeatedly and without a shred of evidence, that Israel has set up (are you happy with ‘set up’? Is that close enough to your sacred ‘established’ and far enough away from the no-no term ‘founded’?) Hamas.
That’s 3 points:
a. Nobody had applied the word ‘support’ to what you’d said.
b. Your use of the word ‘support’ is meaningless, because you are not linking it to anything specific (e.g. supporting the claim that Israel established Hamas, supporting Israel’s alleged establishment of Hamas, supporting the aims of Hamas, and so on and so forth). Your question, therefore, is meaningless and unanswerable. Go and spend 6 months on a crash course in basic English, and then you may possibly see that using ‘support’ in such a vague way as you did is meaningless.
c. I then referred to your absurd initial claim, which you have still not proved.
And furthermore, I do agree that Bio’s comparison is valid, because everything you have written tends that way and you have offered exactly nothing in the way of refutation.
Bio, my null hypothesis is that trolls – certainly this one – are so stupid that they don’t realise everybody else can see right through their lies. Or maybe they are so stupid they think we’ll forget all those lies next time they come calling (or should that be crawling?).
You accuse Israel of ‘establishing’ a terrorist gang for its own evil ends.
Evidence please? Where have I accused Israel of establishing a terrorist gang for its own ends? Link please.
Now korova claims it was Netanyahu who ‘admitted’ that Mossad had ‘established’ Hamas.
No, I said that:
the Israeli Prime Minister stated that Netanyahu “established Hamas”
I did not say that Netanyahu admitted that Mossad established Hamas. Link please if you suggest I said otherwise.
You blithered:
what does that make Mossad, Israel and the Jews, in your eyes?
In terms of the Jews it is meaningless. My point is regarding the people who established Hamas, not the Jewish people as a whole (if you remember, I asked the question “what does it make those that established them?“). There is quite a distinction between the Israeli government and the Israeli people. Unless you are suggesting all Jews are the same?
Nearly Oxfordian | 24.05.08 – 5:43 pm
Trolls certainly do come in varying degrees of stupidity – this one has run the whole gamut.
… still no link to proof of the ‘allegation’ … still no direct answers to direct questions, just more slithering and sliding, obfuscation and evasion.
(sigh)
korova:
Incidentally, given that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, if Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’, what does it make those that established them?
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm | #
Link:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Firstly, Jack Bauer, the ‘revelation’ that the Israelis helped established Hamas is not new. Even Olmert has admitted this publicly (it is well documented, do a Google search and you should find it).
Links:
http://www.upi.com/International_Intelligence/Analysis/2002/06/18/analysis_hamas_history_tied_to_israel/8272/
Olmert:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1170359844280&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Global research is a commie nutjob site. I don’t trawl commie nutjob sites, or take anything they print seriously.
As to the Olmert/JP article. You sir, are a liar and a dissembler.
You know very well what the context is.
Sure… and Ted Heath was responsible for the Provisional IRA because they started up and flourished while he was in power; and he didn’t crush them when he had the chance.
Pathetic stuff on your part. You make Ken Livingdead look like an intellectual giant.
You know very well what the context is.
I said that the Israelis established Hamas, the Israeli Prime Minister said (direct quote) “Netanyahu [then Prime Minister] established Hamas” (see link). Make of that what you will.
Ted Heath was responsible for the Provisional IRA because they started up and flourished while he was in power
Did Ted Heath have the leader of the Provisional IRA under arrest and then release him early? Must have missed that.
Well, why don’t you tell us what You make of Netanyahu?
Happy to, seeing as none of you are willing to oblige. Netanyahu is totally incompetent and is a very dangerous, untrustworthy politician. Any man that celebrates the murder of British citizens should be roundly condemned.
Any man that celebrates the murder of British citizens should be roundly condemned.
Sorry, force of habit, link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article690085.ece
So why don’t you tell us what You make of Netanyahu?
Did Ted Heath have the leader of the Provisional IRA under arrest and then release him early? Must have missed that.
Yes, we you miss a lot. Well you are some sort of quasi-Marxist slash socialist, so that’s to be expected.
Gerry Adams was arrested in March 1972 and interned HMS Maidstone, but was set free in June to take part in secret talks in London.
Following the failure of the talks he helped to plan a bombing campaign in Belfast known as Bloody Friday.
So yes.. Ted Heath did have did one of the leaders of the Provisional IRA in prison, and released him early.
So by your twisted logic Heath was behind the Provisional IRA’s murders on Bloody Friday because he let Gerry Adamas out early.
Memo to you: come better armed next time.
So by your twisted logic Heath was behind the Provisional IRA’s murders on Bloody Friday because he let Gerry Adamas out early.
Actually, according to the “twisted logic” of the Israeli Prime Minister. It was, after all, Olmert that said that “Netanyahu established Hamas”.
This has a funny side. Some 32 hours after this well-fisked comment
Incidentally, given that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, if Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’, what does it make those that established them?
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm
it finally comes up with the links it has been challenged to provide. I guess whoever it has been desperately trying to contact all this time finally arrived home from a heavy binge and got the messages.
Things get really confusing for the anti-Semites. They don’t know which Jews to blame: Mossad, Netanyahu, Olmert. Now from the JPost article it turns out the allegation of establishing Hamas was part of a political spat between Olmert and Netanyahu.
Korova should work for the BBC. Probably does.
korova, you are worse than pathetic!
Your first link was one of the first I came across looking for documentation. I found none there nor in any of the other links you have provided. There is only conjecture and opinions. Even Olmert’s ‘accusation’ in the JPost directed at Netanyahu and Netanyahu’s response are opinions, not documented proof of anything other than that these two men ‘accused’ each other.
Let’s take http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ZER403A.html
Written by Hassane Zerouky, quoting Zeev Sternell and published by Centre for Research on Globalisation. it’s nothing more than “he said they did…”
Hassane Zerouky is quoted here. Forgive me if I laugh. See who “Tony Greenstein” is, google has plenty on him and he (and you) is just the sort of person that piece was written for.
Ze’ev Sternhell of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125186
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeev_Sternhell#Controversy
Centre for Research on Globalisation?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Research_on_Globalization
He is an active member of the anti-war movement in Canada, has written extensively on the war in Yugoslavia. After the September 11 terrorist attacks he has also been involved in highlighting the historical relationship between the US government, Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. [1] An article he published on September 12, 2001 entitled “The Truth Behind 9/11: Who is Osama Bin Laden?”[4] was one of the first to question the Bush administration’s assertion that Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Troofers!
Your other ‘documentation’ isn’t worth commenting on. As I’ve already said it’s no more than conjecture and more undocumented ‘allegations’ and opinions.
I’ll say it again; Israel did back Yassin’s organization when it was non-violent and actually doing something that helped the “Palestinians”, and when it wasn’t called Hamas nor had the aims that Hamas subsequently declared.
To say that Israel, whether Mossad, Netanyahu or the head of the Beth Din established the entity now known as Hamas is a lie, it’s nonsense, and a malevolent libel.
Now from the JPost article it turns out the allegation of establishing Hamas was part of a political spat between Olmert and Netanyahu…
I know, it’s like watching a two hour whodunnit on TV, and finding out there was no murderer as it was all an accident.
File that under WGAFF (Who gives a flying f+++)
“Any man that celebrates the murder of British citizens should be roundly condemned”
Anyone who calls a legit attack by Jews on the HQ of the illegal British occupation of their country ‘murder’ is an antisemitic twat.
To say that Israel, whether Mossad, Netanyahu or the head of the Beth Din established the entity now known as Hamas is a lie, it’s nonsense, and a malevolent libel.
So, let me get this straight you are calling the Israeli Prime Minister a liar?
That was me, btw.
Anyone who calls a legit attack by Jews on the HQ of the illegal British occupation of their country ‘murder’ is an antisemitic twat.
So what would you call it?
Memo to you: come better armed next time.
Jack Bauer | Homepage | 24.05.08 – 7:01 pm
Or as they say in Texas, “don’t come to a gun fight armed with a pocket knife”.
“Actually, according to the “twisted logic” of the Israeli Prime Minister. It was, after all, Olmert that said that “Netanyahu established Hamas”.”
This is almost funny. So now everything that Olmert says is holy gospel?
What a twat.
-Anyone who calls a legit attack by Jews on the HQ of the illegal British occupation of their country ‘murder’ is an antisemitic twat.
-So what would you call it?
Err … a military attack, twat?
“Any man that celebrates the murder of British citizens should be roundly condemned”
Had I been in Jerusalem at the time I too would have marked the bombing of The King David Hotel as an historical moment in Israel’s struggle to re-establish herself as the Jewish homeland.
So, let me get this straight you are calling the Israeli Prime Minister a liar?
korova | 4.05.08 – 7:16 pm
I’m calling you a liar, you pathetic, devious troll, for misrepresenting everything contained in your ‘documentation’.
The Israeli Prime Minister may well also be a liar, but that’s been discussed on another thread.
Thanks guys, it has been hilarious. Watching you squirm and twist and turn (Biodegrable particularly, I lost count of the unfounded accusations – possibly libellous) has been a joy. Worth reminding, I said:
korova:
Incidentally, given that Hamas was allegedly ‘established’ by Mossad, if Hamas are ‘nazi-emulating morally bereft savages’, what does it make those that established them?
korova | 23.05.08 – 12:52 pm | #
It has indeed been alleged that Hamas was “established” by Mossad. Lots of allegations. Even Biodegradable concedes that Israel had some involvement in Hamas’ establishment. Reminder for the slow – I never said or insinuated that the Israeli’s deliberately established a violent entity in the Palestinian Territories.
Firstly, Jack Bauer, the ‘revelation’ that the Israelis helped established Hamas is not new. Even Olmert has admitted this publicly (it is well documented, do a Google search and you should find it). But then, as Olmert is clearly ‘left-wing’, perhaps this is ‘sewage’.
As the evidence shows, Olmert did indeed claim that the Israeli government “established Hamas”. As far as I am aware, Netanyahu ha snot sued Olmert for libel, which is odd as Biodegradable clearly believes that this is a case of “malevolent libel”.
-Anyone who calls a legit attack by Jews on the HQ of the illegal British occupation of their country ‘murder’ is an antisemitic twat.
-So what would you call it?
Err … a military attack, twat?
Is it me, or do you not see the logical conclusion of this argument? Or are you a bit, you know, stoopid?
korova | Homepage | 24.05.08 – 6:56 pm
British citizens. Ha!
Go away and find out how the British treated the Jews at that time, and don’t come back.
Go away and find out how the British treated the Jews at that time, and don’t come back.
So a bombing is justified if the people are treated badly? Interesting.