Nelson Mandela is in the UK for the next week and given his near saint-like status in some quarters we can expect euphoric media coverage. I was interested in reading the BBC report which stresses his glowing relationship with the Queen and which trots out the mantra about his tireless “campaign around the globe for peace and an end to poverty.” Given the horrendous violence which afflicts South Africa and the genocide taking place in its neighbour Zimbabwe, is it too much to ask the BBC to ask some hard questions about the actual achievements of one of their idols? Is it not reasonable to expect the State Broadcaster review all aspects of Mr Mandela’s career – from his former days as a terrorist to his current period as a man that can do no wrong?
SAINT NELSON.
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Nah, they’ll probably just ask him about Gaza.
David Vance: Actually if the BBC want a saint for Africa, I can suggest two off the top of my head.
Bill Gates. A man who has given (and is going to give more) tens of billions of dollars to help Africa. No grandstanding, no wonky eye, no books about “courage”.
However, there is a problem with Gates for the BBC.
1. He’s not gay
2. He’s a yank
3. He’s not black or called Osama
4. He doesn’t spout on about Aids (even though other diseases he champions kills more people)
How about George W Bush? He’s done plenty for Africa. Need I list out why the BBC hates him and ignores it as part of his legacy?
Yet when the fat unwashed one eyed jock spouts on about giving “our taxes” to any old corrupt African dictator, the BBC purrs in admiration.
It is too much to ask. It’s kind of like asking “Is it too much to ask the BBC about the actual achievements of those who brought about change in the education system, the sexual revolution and liberal a liberal approach towards abortion and the judicial system?”
There might be valid points as to the actual achievements of all the above, but for those on the left it’s all about what Mandela replaced. Therefore he gets a free ride.
Nelson Mandela was a terrorist.
But in the eyes of the left, he was a victim of oppression. He like Obama is the solution to liberals guilty consciences. Apatheid was bad. So naturally Mandela is good. It becomes LIBERAL CHIC to hug a terrorist, because after-all it’s Britains fault that he was forced to murder. It’s silly.
I don’t hate Mandela, and I certainly think his 28 (?) years in prison may have been adequate punishment for his crimes, but the nauseating lib love of this guy is enough to make me puke.
Mandela wasn’t executed. His victims were.
His cause was just. His actions weren’t.
Martin, I remember reading once that, thanks to GWB’s interest in the disease, and his subsequent and substantial increase in funding, Malaria in Africa has halved!
Of course, you’ll be lucky to hear this on the BBC.
Halving Malaria is a result.
The BBC isn’t interested in results. It is interested in posturing itself as a caring entity. You see, George W. Bush does not care about people. He is a Texas War for Oil man.
Obama cares. Obama will eradicate tooth decay and bad breath with one sweep of his hand.
And the BBC will nod and approve.
Hail Obama.
Would it be obtuse to think Mandela actually performed brilliantly as a stooge of the west or as someone who couldnt change a thing ? for it is evident he has achieved very little since presidency especially in these areas;
1) Land reform policy (minority white farmers own most of the fertile land since apartheid era). Instead of buying back white farmers land land provided they trained future generations of black farmers to continue the agricultural prosperity S.A is known for then maybe this policy if continued along other sectors of industry may have alleviated some of the barriers seen today. Who knows if similar efforts were used in Zimbabwe the state wouldnt be in the shape its currently in ?
2) Tourism sector most of the minority white inhabitants are in administration and management roles while the majority blacks are low level workers.
3) Dutch diamond corporation Debeers continues to mine and subjugate the poor to squalid and deprivation for generations due to health and low income. The state should have take control of this sector but it continued privatization and the legacy of Cecil Rhodes imperialism continues to this day.
4) HIV/AIDS epidemic has continually increased while measures to reduce this have all failed.
5) Crime has continually increased and at one stage was the murder capital of the world after it was taken by Baghdad.
6) Employment/Education has failed the majority blacks in deprived areas due to mismanagement,poor teaching standards,
7) Housing/Poverty shanty towns litter the capitals border and for many generations they have not seen any improvements in conditions or support from the government to alleviate these issues.
Finally what can he be thankful for ? maybe he should be thankful that he had the hopes and aspirations of generations on his shoulders and unfortunately realised that he cant fight the system for the system is the status quo, its just business, not your business but ours.
Capitalism dont you just love the freedom it brings ?
i’ll stick my head above the parapet – how can you argue that Mandela was “terrorist” when the government was practically neo-Nazi?
by that standard, were the people that tried to blow up Hitler in 1944 also “terrorists”? Or were Polish resistance fighters in Warsaw also “terrorists”?
i’m sorry – but using the word “terrorist” in the specific case of Mandela and the fight against apartheid lessens the meaning of the word.
“Adam Boulton | 25.06.08 – 9:14 pm |”
adam – i think you’ll find that its more a case of the ANC leadership falling in love with Swiss bank accounts, than “capitalism” per se.
its just yet more African corruption, which is endemic in that sorry continent.
i would agree with you if it were the real issue but honestly the De Beers although S.A based is really a Dutch operation controlled by its government and the agriculture is U.K/Dutch controlled. In both cases the poor majority are still treated as slaves the only difference is its fought on a psychological level and not just the physical.
You’ll find the bank accounts arent in SWISS but LONDON. Behind the scenes the power still remains with the Dutch and U.K governments if you cant see that then you swallowed too much propaganda beamed into your mind through the Beeb/broad sheets.
The commonwealth is still seen as the realm and it needs to be managed and defended.
Just watched the BBC 10 o’clock news.It lead with Mandela’s long overdue condemnation of Mugabi.The commentator’s opening comments were “Nelson Mandela,who few would deny is the hero of our age”. Well boyo,I would deny it!Absolute biased crap!
This proves that he is a stooge of the U.K and Dutch and his prodigy is Tvsrangri/Obama. The elite whites have realised in todays age of technology they cant get away with things so easily and need stooges thats where the likes if Tvsrangri and Obama come in they will claim to be the our savior and will bring no change for their paymasters supported them and will remove them when they served their purpose just like Mugabe.
Obama isn’t a terrorist, but his friends are.
Mandela was a terrorist.
Gaping Maw – the Polish Resistance aimed their bombs at heavily armed Nazi soldiers, not civilians going shopping.
Mandela should have swung.
Greencoat, Mandela is black. And he was oppressed by the white man.
That makes all the difference. Seriously.
One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter its all relative, he was a terrorist against thatchers backed regime in S.A. Once released he succumbed to the powers that be and was a freedom fighter either that or he would have followed Martin luther king. Not to mention the Zionist that hanged, murdered and bombed the British in Palestine and new revered by the Zionists as freedom fighters although known for their terror tactics (first in the mid east) by the British.
Relative.
Everything is relative Einstein.
Some moral some not.
I know the difference.
Of Course South Africa is a much better Country now it’s just the blacks giving each other the Soweto Neck tie.
God there are some morons out there.
Martin, the white man drove them to it.
It’s our legacy.
(we here that here in America all the time)
From a exclusive location in London at a dinner with a list of distinguished individuals Mandela utters the words duly anticipated by his masters “the tragic failure of leadership”.
Right on que funny the image of kettle and pot comes to mind. Why now ? why not 6 months ago, a year , 3 years or 5 years ago ? Its because Brown wants a mini war and wars brings success, prestige and boosts public perception of his dwindling image.
The words have been said and Mandela has nailed ~Mugabes coffin he is a dead man walking and unless he submits he will be removed by S.A/U.K forces.
Adam, not another war for oil.
We’re drowning in black gold from the last one.
the Polish Resistance aimed their bombs at heavily armed Nazi soldiers, not civilians going shopping.
Mandela should have swung.
Greencoat | 25.06.08 – 10:45 pm
I think you’ll find that most if not all “civilians going shopping” were targeted by the apartheid regime, not the ANC.
http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=87
The armed struggle was founded on two fundamental principles: First, violence should not be directed against civilians but against property and military targets. This derived from the ANC’s history of non-violent protest, and its belief in the principle of non-violent political action to effect change as preached and practised by Mahatma Gandhi in fighting British rule in India. (Gandhi was an admired figure: He had lived in South Africa early in the century and led nonviolent protests against racial discrimination; his precepts were carried forward by an ANC ally, the South African Indian Congress).
Second, not killing whites was a pragmatic strategy aimed at keeping the door open for them to change. The argument was that violent and indiscriminate attacks would so frighten whites about their future that their determination to resist change would be deepened. Giving this approach even greater depth was the fact that whites were members of the ANC, and some occupied high leadership positions, alongside black, colored and Asian South Africans.
Religion was an added dimension. Christianity was strongly rooted among many blacks. Oliver Tambo, the ANC’s president in exile, was a devout Christian and nonviolence was part of his creed. Dr. Tom Karis, the eminent American authority on South African political history, has described it thus1: “The ANC was fundamentally opposed to any form of terrorism because such action would subvert its popular appeal among all racial groups and its legitimacy in a future government. In particular, the ANC’s policy on racial cooperation placed a high priority on facilitating the growth of white groups within South Africa that would be prepared to cooperate with it. It was genuinely anxious not to exacerbate racial bitterness, thus jeopardizing the goal of a nonracial society. Furthermore, counteracting the “terrorist” image propagated by the South African government was important for the ANC’s standing in many Western countries. It also recognized the need for whites to stay if South Africa’s advanced economy was to be maintained.”
Mandela at his Trial
Karis quoted Mandela as saying during his trial in 1964, in which he was sentenced to life imprisonment: “We believed that, as a result of government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalize and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism, which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of the country which is not produced even by war.”
Mandela also explained that the ANC had adopted sabotage as a policy because it, “did not involve loss of life, and it offered the best hope for future race relations.” Umkhonto members, he noted, were given, “strict instructions … that on no account were they to injure or kill people.”
So deep did this outlook go that the ANC became the first liberation movement to sign the protocol of the Geneva Convention on the “humanitarian conduct of war.”
During the succeeding years, Umkhonto carried out many acts of sabotage: Some were spectacular in attacking government plants and electricity installations but overall they did only limited damage to the economy. “Armed struggle” was really no more than “armed propaganda.”
Nonviolence did not extend to what the ANC viewed as legitimate targets – armed or uniformed combatants, police officers, perceived informers and collaborators, and white farmers in border areas who formed part of military structures. But even this was limited: According to police statistics of the time, from 1976 to 1986, in a population of 30 to 35 million, about 130 people were killed by “terrorists.” Of these, about 30 were members of government security forces and 100 were civilians, of whom, in turn, 40 were whites and 60 were blacks.
Biodegradeable, I don’t think you understand what’s being debated here.
NO ONE is defending apartheid.
YOU ARE defending Mandela.
Mandela was a terrorist. He and his peeps killed civilians. No different than the IRA.
I understand your type completely.
You’re immoral and not real bright.
I understand your type completely.
You’re immoral and not real bright.
gus | 26.06.08 – 1:11 am
You have absolutely no idea who I am, neither do have any idea what my “type” is.
Now you’ve got that ad hominem attack off your hairy chest would you please provide us with an example of the ANC targeting “civilians going shopping”?
Regarding George Bush as a “saint for Africa” – does anyone remember recently when Bob Geldof of all people berated the liberal US media for not paying enough attention to the wonderful things Bush has done for Africa – more than any other president in fact?
http://video1.washingtontimes.com/fishwrap/2008/02/bob_geldof_in_rwanda.html
I found this begrudging “well I suppose so…but then again…” mention of Bush’s African achievements on a BBC news page entitled “Bush’s Europe tour diary: Day Two” from last year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6726831.stm
“The two ageing rock stars are now a permanent fixture at the yearly heads of state gathering. And they are not too embarrassed to be seen with President Bush. ”
I actually felt a little embarrassed for the Beeb when I read that cringeworthy line.
“Although it is almost inevitable that President Bush will be portrayed here as the party pooper for blocking efforts to set hard targets to tackle climate change, he has in fact a rather better record than most in giving aid to Africa.
Mr Bush recently doubled his aid programme to tackle HIV-Aids on the continent – though not everyone approves of America’s emphasis on abstinence before condoms. But at least he put his money where his mouth is.”
See what I mean? They just can’t give unconditional credit where it’s due. It kills them so much to report something positive about Bush that they just have to throw a few sour grapes in there too. If Bush found a cure for AIDS tomorrow they’d throw in something about Hurricane Katrina in the report.
gus: for your information i suggest you research the profits or Shell and BP in particular. Free oil from IRAQ for life coincides with the invasion and continues to this day. While the Iraqis have no adequate electricity, water, education, security, health care now thats freedom and democracy stoneage style. Great warning to the gulf states to play ball.
They pay tax and the U.K enjoys free Iraqi oil Basra and charges you for it double ! Enjoy the countless courages soldiers used as cannon fodder aka security guards to secure the British financial/strategic interests in the region.
Chess is a brilliant game and takes time to perfect just like war.
Nelson had winnie for a wife…punishment enough methinks….plus he wears colourful shirts….what a nice man.
“Free oil from IRAQ for life coincides with the invasion and continues to this day. While the Iraqis have no adequate electricity, water, education, security, health care now thats freedom and democracy stoneage style. Great warning to the gulf states to play ball.
They pay tax and the U.K enjoys free Iraqi oil Basra and charges you for it double ! Enjoy the countless courages soldiers used as cannon fodder aka security guards to secure the British financial/strategic interests in the region.”
Hey, isn’t this a quote from the Stop The War Coalition ? But you missed out the “Bush=Hitler” bit and “Haliburton are the Devil’s Spawn” claim ! Also love the comment that us Brits are paying double for FREE Iraqi oil…hmmm..double of nothing is what ? That’s right ! It’s still NOTHING ! that means we’re actually paying NOTHING for our petrol. Cool !!
Adam Bolton, are you drunk, stupid or retarded? Or a combination?
I don’t know where to start with blithering morons like you. What I mean is, that you are completely insane and have your head up your ass, because you have chosen to.
Your goofy lib-ass-hat notion that Iraqi’s are suffering is nonsense.
But let’s get to the point.
There was no war for oil. We (and I specifically mean the U.S. and my U.S.Marine nephew who has been wounded and is currently in Iraq) liberated Iraq from tyranny. Nancy boys like you need not apply. WE, did not RAPE Iraq of it’s resources to pay for our sacrifices. NOPE. We helped build infrastructure, schools, freedom and democracy.
And sissies like you bitch, without a clue.
Go to hell.
Oil companies supply us with the life blood of a free economy. They should profit every bit as much as Richard Branson, Starbuck or McDonalds.
Liberal governments make FAR MORE from a gallon of gasoline than the OIL COMPANIES do.
Government does not create anything.
It spends other peoples money.
You are a pathetic clown.
Mandela’s legacy is much more good than bad. Quite rare in history for the “serfs” to take over from the “lords”, and then not massacre them or expel them from the country. Look at what happened to the Moors when the Spanish re-conquered their country. But he is not a saint. The BBC should look at all sides.
tireless “campaign around the globe for peace and an end to poverty.”
Did her Madge really say “tireless”?
Now that’s kinda funny in a hideous burned to death sorta way, isn’t it?
I guess she wasn’t including the necklacing Winnie then in awarding the old commie a Sainthood
gus:
Adam Bolton, are you drunk, stupid or retarded? Or a combination?
I don’t know where to start with blithering morons like you. What I mean is, that you are completely insane and have your head up your ass, because you have chosen to.
Your goofy lib-ass-hat notion that Iraqi’s are suffering is nonsense.
Now that’s what I call a well reasoned, informative contribution to the debate!
I’m still waiting for gus (is that Gustav or Angus?) to provide references to the ANC targeting “civilians going shopping”.
I googled “ANC, bombs” and found mostly references to bombs against the ANC and black civilians planted by the South African police and secret services.
It’s a funny ol’ world when you take the trouble to actually see it for it what it is, or as George Carlin said, “we’re all fucked, it helps to remember that.”
Mandela cannot be reproached for fighting apartheid when peaceful means to do so were denied him by the Afrikaner government. However, his record since the end of apartheid is open to challenge, a challenge which the BBC declines, and that is bias.
Allan@Oslo | 26.06.08 – 12:13 pm
I agree.
Allan@Oslo “However, his record since the end of apartheid is open to challenge, a challenge which the BBC declines, and that is bias.”
Brian Walden, former Labour MP, described Mandela in less than glowing terms in a BBC TV series about heroes. But that was 10 years ago and I’ll be very surprised if we see it again.
Chess is a brilliant game and takes time to perfect just like war.
Adam Bolton | 26.06.08 – 2:25 am | #
If you’re going to masquerade as a Sky TV news reporter then at least make some attmept to have at least 10% of his intelligence and ability.
Brian Walden, former Labour MP, described Mandela in less than glowing terms in a BBC TV series about heroes. But that was 10 years ago and I’ll be very surprised if we see it again.
Andy | 26.06.08 – 12:37 pm | #
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19980203/ai_n14149472
Obviously the man is a living god, and spends his days travelling the world looking statesmanlike and worldly with a message of peace and AIDS-is-bad and stuff. Blah blah.
Given that South Africa is a cesspit, however, shouldn’t he focus his efforts at home? For example, South Africa has a particularly disgusting problem with baby rape. The rapists think sex with a virgin cures AIDS and apparently in South Africa the only way to be sure she’s a virgin is if she’s three months old (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25806).
What’s Mandela doing over here banging on about AIDS when he’s got that going on in his own back yard? Remind me again why we need this guy’s contribution?
He did furnish Ricky Gervais with a brilliant line (“prison works – look at Mandela, been out 15 years and hasn’t reoffended”) but apart from that what is the silly old buffoon actually for? Why is he a secular saint, but not Martin McGuinness or Gerry Adams?
I don’t mean to be rude or anything but he strikes me as a sort of African Ming Campbell. Except ole Ming had the good taste not to let Ground Force near his garden.
Some pictures of the 1983 Pretoria bombing, for the Googlers: Google “Aboobaker Ismail” and “Robert McBride”.
http://www.millwall-history.co.uk/Church%20Street.jpg
http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/media/1999/9909/p9900927c.htm
The 1986 Magoos bar car bomb which killed hree people and wounded 73 others on the Durban beachfront in 1986 was intended for apartheid security force personnel who frequented the establishments.
Not really ‘shoppers’ then.
http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=86015&sn=Detail
A.) INCIDENTS:
1. Rocket Attack on the Mobil Oil Refinery in Durban, 14 May 1984;
2. Attack on transformer at Musgrave Road, Durban, 21 June 1984;
3. Explosion of sub-station at Queen Mary’s Avenue, Durban, 7 August 1984;
4. Explosion at sub-station at Gale Street, Durban on 14 September 1984;
5. Explosion of sub-station at Woodlands, Durban, 21 June 1985;
6. Umlazi Police Station – 10 February 1986;
7. Explosion of sub-station at Springfield, Durban, 12 February 1986;
8. Explosion of sub-station at Assagay, Hammersdale on 12 March 1986.
Not a civilian doing the shopping in sight here either…
I see that SA is going down the drain following Rhodesia (pardon Zim. . . Zimbabwe). Xenophobia, rapes and killings of the fellow blacks: the heritage of great Mandela and Marxist ANC. In our small village we have three very good dentists from SA: they decided to emigrate. BTW, I forgot to tell: they are white.
Jason | 26.06.08 – 1:52 am |
See what I mean? They just can’t give unconditional credit where it’s due. It kills them so much to report something positive about Bush that they just have to throw a few sour grapes in there too. If Bush found a cure for AIDS tomorrow they’d throw in something about Hurricane Katrina in the report.
That reminds me of a joke I heard (it was either on tv or radio) from some German media type. He said that the European media and intelligentsia hated Bush so much that if he walked on water, they’d just say, “We knew it – he’s such an idiot that he can’t even swim!”
i have to admit , the sycopantic coverage of Mandela in the Standard this evening, did make me wonder a bit.
centre spread photo of Brownstuff and Clinton applauding him at some dinner.
i dont get it – why? he certainly hasnt prevented Mugabe running riot.
and S.A. is a cesspit of rampant crime and violence..
“Greencoat | 25.06.08 – 10:45 pm”
read your history mate – any resistance movement also includes a degree of very dirty work…
and that includes shooting collaborators, killing spies, blowing up buildings with civilians in them (e.g police station).. and much else..
its not as straightforward or clean as just killing German soldiers.
its a messy business.
what matters, in the end, is what you are fighting *against*. thats where the whole morality stuff kicks in… and i’m no expert in “moral war” authority, but i am fairly sure that fighting against apartheid was more or less equivalent to fighting communism or nazism, in moral terms.
and yes i do realise that the ANC were Marxist types – but then again , a lot of Poles in the Warsaw Rising were Marxist types – doesnt mean that what they were fighting AGAINST wasnt justified.
I hate to add further debate but having spent a lot of time in various countrys in Africa I can only come to one conclusion. They are all ‘fubar’.
I realise that the BBC see almost everyone who is from that continent as oppressed or disadvantaged, but if you ever have had to transit through any ports/rural areas, there is just a line of people waiting for some sort of financial kickback. Corruption is rife in every aspect of life. Fact.
I thought it was kind of amusing when Mandela was in the UK a few years back and went to Brixton to thank the black community for all their support during the apartheid years. I actually thought he was being sarcastic because most of the support for Anti-Apartheid came from young liberal whites. He should have gone to Hampstead. I used to pass by the S.Africa embassy in Trafalgar Square
when they had a 24 hour picket against apartheid going on. Over the two years that I saw of it I only ever saw a dozen or so black people on the picket line.
Anthony, just as the Japanese made Japan what it is, and Germans made Germany what it is, so Africans make Africa what it is. Peoples are different and the outcomes are different. I note that the same outcomes occur when different peoples are to be found within the borders of any given country – especially the US.
>i>antony ewing:
I hate to add further debate but having spent a lot of time in various countrys in Africa I can only come to one conclusion. They are all ‘fubar’.
And there own version of SNAFU, as well?
Situation Normal, Africa F****d Up
I used to pass by the S.Africa embassy in Trafalgar Square
when they had a 24 hour picket against apartheid going on. Over the two years that I saw of it I only ever saw a dozen or so black people on the picket line.
Terry Johnson | 27.06.08 – 7:02 am
And they were most likely actual African exiles rather than the West Indians who live in Brixton.