. They just love him, don’t they? I refer to Vladimir Putin and the BBC. I was watching the 10 Ten O Clock news and the BBC was slobbering over the communist thug and his all powerful command of what is happening in Georgia. Then we were presented with the revelation that only the French diplomats can save the day! My god, what next – the Belgium army to act as peace-keepers? Of course what REALLY concerns me is that the curious lack of street demos from the “anti-war peace activists” who infested our streets when we toppled the butcher of Baghdad. But now Putin is using power to bully and crush..ssssshhhh, say nothing and the BBC will ask no tricky questions. Now, back to the Olympics and leave the French to sort it all out… just another rainy night in Georgia.
PUTIN POWER
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John Bull:
Hello mate. Interesting that your own particular cage at Broadcasting Towers has been rattled on this issue and this issue alone.
Do you work for BBC news by chance?
Russia has now clearly invaded well into Georgian territory. Georgia acted stupidly last week, but this is beyond defense now. The BBC has figured that out, finally.
Note to those who think the BBC’s coverage over the weekend was not at all biased:
Reporting a few facts about Russia’s military actions does not count as portraying Russia in a bad light. That’s called doing their job when they have to. The bulk of the reporting on the conflict was done in the context of Georgia’s aggression and taking Russia’s excuse of “defending innocents” at face value. They also failed to report on the Russian bombing of pipelines, they were way behind the curve on just how far Russia was going, and they never really discussed just who was behind these moves for independence in the first place.
I’d say they’re being more balanced now, but my opinion could be very easily dismissed as thinking they’re not biased only when I agree with them. At least more of reality is registering now.
Ivan3: You forgot that all those regions you mentioned want independence from Russia, not some “Bush puppet”. Your words will fall on deaf ears, I’m afraid.
Hi bully-boy
“John Bull:
“Your “democratic, western looking state” launched an all out attack on civilians” Attacks where made in response to coordinated assaults by Russian backed insurgents on said. Such attacks are legal under international law.
“Russian citizens….Is that not aggression?” No it is called defending yourself from attacks by Russian backed insurgents.
“.. sends his special forces in to close down news channels when he’s in the mood • is that feedom of speech or a free press?” This being the plan of media companies to consolidate in Georgia as a commercial decision then. The bastards. I mean the merging of the ITV companies into one is akin to the killing of Journalists in Russia is it?? The only TV stations which where closed down, by the police (not as sinister as Special Forces is it?) Where those shown to be broadcasting Russian propaganda. If you want the true picture of Russia see the 2008 Annual report on Russia by Reporters without Borders, (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=25500&Valider=OK) the highlights include:
Arresting and attacking journalists, including journalists from German TV, and a Japanese photographer, who were beaten and/or arrested. Closing down papers for not supporting Putin. Imprisoning Nikolai Andrushenko, for writing that he would march with and print the opposition’s manifesto. The paper stopped coming out because it could no longer find a printer.’
Forcing all media to support Putin. All opposition was no longer heard on the media, stations refusing to carry opposition advertising. What about sending at least two journalists to psychiatric hospitals to discredit those with “undesirable” views and to discourage people from openly opposing the regime. Documentary filmmaker Natalia Petrova was badly beaten up by police. Her two young daughters and 70-year-old mother were also attacked when they tried to protect her. She was beaten both at home and at a police station and later fled the country. Police have since hounded family members who stayed behind.
Three RenTV journalists and a member of the human rights organisation Memorial were kidnapped by security forces in the Caucasian republic of Ingushetia. Their clothes and equipment were taken away and they were beaten up and made to undergo simulated execution before being released. Two of them had to be hospitalised.
All in all over 55 journalists have been murdere3d in Russia since the year 2000, no one has been charged. That is called a crackdown on a free press, not anything Georgia does.
On the murder of ” dubious ex-KGB Officers”….Dubious ex-KGB like Putin you mean a man some believe has stolen so much of his countries wealth that he is now the richest man in the world. The use of radioactive material to kill a British citizen in the UK is illegal under British law; it also breaks Russian signed protocol about the use radiological weapons. If any member of the UK murders anyone, and there is no proof that there was any official complicity they would be tried for murder, not made an MP.
“it’s not justifiable to shell civilians in this day and age”…Unless they are Russian shelling Chechens, Georgians, etc., apparently.
“…Kosovo…..When they killed non-US civilians they were bombed by the US. That was perfectly acceptable to the west, as was expropriating the country in question and installing a puppet government. The Russians, following the example, are on the same moral platform.”…So you agree that Russia is stealing Georgia then.
“The people who should care most are the civilians in South Ossetia who would have been subject to the same treatment that the US led NATO forces inflicted on Serbs in Kosovo by allowing the KLA in to ethnically cleanse civilians.”….According to your own analogy the S/O is the KLA, you know insurgents backed by and controlled by outside countries. If you feel that Kosovo should not have been recognised then you must believe that S/O must remain part of Georgia, otherwise you are not making sense.
‘NATO is a reprobate and cowardly organisation…[it] doesn’t have much appetite for a real battle.’…They seem to be doing a better job than then Russia in Afghanistan, it being a NATO mission. Of course Russia never dared challenge NATO members so we will never know who where the cowards
“I condemn any and all human rights abuses because they are wrong…”I don’t support independence for Kosovo, (never claimed I did). Georgia should have “left South Ossetia”….S/O is part of Georgia under international law. I thought you made a great deal of democracy and the right for S/O independence. If you do than all the Russian Republics who want to should be allowed to secede. The thing is you are not logical in any way. If you support human rights you must condemn Russia, I mean Andrey Illarionov, former senior economic policy adviser to Putin has said that freedom in Russia has deteriorated dramatically since 2000 and that the year 2006 “was an extraordinary one in a sense of destruction of all types and all elements of freedom.”
“It posed a threat to its own people”…Not to Russians or Russia then. More accurately, Russian backed insurgents. You are not very consistent are you?
“Again, when the US attacks Serbia for “humanitarian” and strategic reasons it’s a moral action. Russia does the same and it’s a “threat”.”…NATO had UN resolution 1244, Russia doesn’t, and NATO doesn’t invade countries without UN mandate
“I’m straight.”…Of course you are!!!!!
“NATO is aggressively expanding”…Is it really surprising with neighbour like Russia eager to regain a lost Empire and invade? If it was me I’d join NATO for protection.
“Well I’m eating my food raw now so I don’t have to use Russian gas, what are you doing?”
Sourcing my energy form non-Russian sources
Looks like the Putin-jugend trolls have invaded this site as well..
BBC World Today again reported first about Beijing Olympics and then continued with an interview of an “expert” that basically did just what the Kremlin trolls here i.e. spread crude propaganda.
Kremlin is now accusing Georgia with genocide. Such blatant lying used to be the typical Soviet way. Clearly, the people who control Kremlin have not yet learned to polish their propaganda act, which is because it is the same people that used to run the USSR.
The BBC interviewer dis a pretty poor job in exposing the lies of the Kremlin “expert”.
Is this the crisis that the Eurofederalists have been waiting for to show to the world how the Nu EUSSR can act as a single entity? If so thats Georgia f****d then! The ‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’ have done a bang up job so far eh? First get the Georgians to stop fighting and pull back to indefensible positions then sign a surrender document that isnt worth the paper its written on then allow Russia to occupy Georgia and depose its head of state then go crawling to Moscow to beg and whine while Russia leads them a dance and strings them along untill Russia gets what it wants? The Nu EUSSR handling of this conflict has demonstrated why it should never be allowed to become a single entity EVER,what need is there for an EU army when surrender is the first and last option? Europe can now look forward to a future Russian stranglehold on its energy supplies(I am sure Moscow wil be kind and fair) and all those places that Russia has its eyes on had better start making any deal they can with the bear because The Nu EUSSR will be selling them down the river to ensure the energy from Russia keeps flowing!
So now we have a complete view of the often touted ‘EU soft power’? If it werent so tragic it would be funny!
John Bull: You must get your smack really cheap?
I’m not sure that the BBC is being biased against Georgia in its current reporting – at least not on their website. It appears to be balanced. Today’s article includes things like “Before Mr Medvedev’s statement, there were fresh reports of Russian warplanes bombing the Georgian town of Gori.” and “Witnesses told the BBC that several people were killed when a bomb hit a hospital in the town, which is 10 miles (15km) from the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali” All in relation to Russian attacks. Then we hear that “a reporter for Reuters news agency said several bombs exploded in front of his vehicle, while a Reuters photographer spoke of seeing dead and injured people lying in the streets.” No mention that the casue of these deaths was not established (therefore implied Russian air attack as it follows the previous sentence). Or was it small arms fire from Georgians?
Then we see : “After Mr Medvedev’s statement, tens of thousands of Georgians gathered in Tbilisi’s main square to hear President Mikhail Saakashvili speak. He told the crowd Russia was continuing its “ruthless, heartless destruction” of Georgian citizens – although his claims of continued Russian action could not be verified.” Again very little alternative comment.
There were also strength comparison charts, which show how weak the Georgians are, and most of the pictures published are headed to indicate the injuries are caused by Russian offence.
Finally, there seems to be little on the build up itself, nor the deaths caused by the first large scale Georgian attack. Here is an alternative summary (written just before the main battle began).
http://www.russiatoday.com/employee/27
The BBC reports the Russian line uncritically:
“Russia ‘ends Georgia operation'”.
[Extract]:
[The Russian President] “had decided to end the campaign after restoring security for Russian citizens and peacekeepers in South Ossetia.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7555858.stm
The ‘Daily Telegraph’ has a differenct emphasis:
“Vladimir Putin sends emphatic message of global importance”
[Extract]:-
“When Mr Putin sent the tanks into Georgia, Mr Eyal [of Royal United Services Institute] (said) there was ‘absolutely no doubt that one of his key calculations was Ukraine’.
“In essence, Mr Putin was seeking to deter Ukraine from pressing ahead with its plan to join Nato – and Mr Eyal believes that Russia’s plan has succeeded.
“If so, the balance of power in Europe has fundamentally changed and Russia has, through the use of force against Georgia, seized the power to veto Nato’s future membership.
“Ukraine is by far the most important of the former Soviet republics. Columns of Russian tanks hundreds of miles from its borders may now have changed its future.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2541110/Georgia-Vladimir-Putin-sends-emphatic-message-of-global-importance.html
AND:
“Russia knew the West wouldn’t dare step in”
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/45103,opinion,russia-knew-the-west-wouldnt-dare-help-georgia
So the BBC is pro-Taleban, pro-Al-Quaeda, pro-Communist China, and Pro-Putin.
What percentage of the poulation do you think would share that opinion?
But of course, you can see bias where no one else does, can’t you?
This site becomes more and more bizarre.
Joel | Homepage | 12.08.08 – 4:34 pm |
I think technically they’re pro- all those things by default, because it’s really triggered by an anti-Bush/US reaction. Except the China and Communist part.
Ivan3, that was a disappointingly weak response. What you are actually saying is that you admit Saakashvili does not allow “freedom of speech or a free press,” but that you are prepared to overlook that because he roughs up the right journalists • the ones who he thinks aren’t pro-west enough. Well that’s alright then. I suppose Russians can adopt the same reasoning as you.
“If any member of the UK murders anyone, and there is no proof that there was any official complicity they would be tried for murder, not made an MP.”
Litvinenko did indeed have a dubious record. Chechen terrorists claimed he was a good friend, videos of him roughing people up, friends like Berezovsky. By the way anyone can become an MP, including people like Bobby Sands who was elected while in prison. Your point was moot. Like I said there is more evidence to implicate the British Government in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland than there is against Putin for any involvement with the Litvinenko killing.
“So you agree that Russia is stealing Georgia then.” and “If you feel that Kosovo should not have been recognised then you must believe that S/O must remain part of Georgia, otherwise you are not making sense.”
Like I said above I believe that the status quo was the best thing (where South Ossetia was still part of Georgia but with de facto independence), but Saakashvili had his nationalist ideas.
“[babble omitted since you did not provide a quote from me]…If you do than all the Russian Republics who want to should be allowed to secede.”
I answered above, but you ignored the point. I said Given the concerted effort by the US to destabalise Russia it is not in its interest to create civil and ethnic wars on its own borders (an inevitable consequence) so no I don’t automatically support independence. Incidentally I don’t support a referendum to give Texas back to the Mexicans, or Gibralter to the Spanish • just one of those things.
“The thing is you are not logical in any way. If you support human rights you must condemn Russia,”
You appear to support freedom of speech and a free press, but you just excused Saakashvili sending his heavies in to rough up journalists. Is that logical?
” ‘It posed a threat to its own people’…Not to Russians or Russia then. More accurately, Russian backed insurgents. You are not very consistent are you?”
People in Northern Ireland are British by birth, but can hold Irish passports and be Irish • you must try harder.
“NATO had UN resolution 1244, Russia doesn’t”
1244 Didn’t authorise the use of force. Clinton and Blair justified their murderous bombings on a moral platform • the same one the Russians are using.
I suspect John Bull is just another Russian troll like the ones on BBC HYS on Georgia
Well, thanks to Obama, there’s a ceasefire now.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/12/kaine-putin-bent-to-obamas-will/
“People in Northern Ireland are British by birth, but can hold Irish passports and be Irish • you must try harder.”
So Britain can emulate Russia and run an armouted division into Ireland?
What a dick!
It’ll be okay now. His holiness the Messiah has spoken of ceasefire, and voila. Then he went to play golf. They’re wetting themselves over his mystical powers.
“So Britain can emulate Russia and run an armouted division into Ireland?
What a dick!
Peter | 12.08.08 – 6:32 pm”
If adult debate frustrates bang your head against a wall, but keep your profanities to yourself.
As it happens the Irish did have a lame plan to send their army into Northern Ireland, around the time the B-Specials were burning catholics out of their homes.
John Bull,
You are far from being adult debate,you are simply a single issue ranter.
As it happens I was talking about the British invading Ireland,Not the other way around, you pillock.
Bully-boy
“John Bull:
“What you are actually saying is that you admit Saakashvili does not allow “freedom of speech or a free press,”
No what I’m saying that there was a commercial merging of commercial companies based on a business decision, akin to the ITV merges in the UK. Georgia does not ‘rough up’ or kill journalists, Russia does. You will admit that Russia does kill journalists, stop freedom of the press, I mean if you feel so strongly against what you say is Georgian curbs you must condemn Russia in the strongest terms.
“If any member of the UK murders anyone, and there is no proof that there was any official complicity they would be tried for murder, not made an MP.”
“Litvinenko did indeed have a dubious record. Chechen terrorists”
Using your reasoning that should read Chechen freedom fighters fighting against massive human rights abuses and genocide, what else would you call the murder or expulsion of over 50% of an ethnic group by Russia?
“claimed he was a good friend, videos of him roughing people up, friends like Berezovsky.”
So he should have been murdered then?? Not for selling nuclear weapons, murder, trying to cause world war…..but because he had friends you don’t like……that is really sick, you know some, not me, would think you where a bit dubious yourself but I bet money these people don’t want to have their government do anything to you….we are more civilized than that.
“By the way anyone can become an MP”
Anyone can, unless Putin has them committed, killed, or banned obviously, but they don’t stand for the Government party after been sent to murder people in order to provide them with immunity from prosecution.
“there is more evidence to implicate the British Government in the murder of civilians in Northern Ireland than there is against Putin for any involvement with the Litvinenko killing.”
What proof, there has been allegations that some people conspired to murder. No one has said the UK government had the official policy to murder innocents. If you have proof I trust you will give to the police so that these people can be prosecuted. No doubt you call for murderer of Litvinenko to be extradited so the evidence against them can be tested in court.
“Saakashvili had his nationalist ideas.”
That being that Georgia included S/O, as it does under international law and with treaties with Russia. Putin is an extreme nationalist, you will condemn him to.
“there was this little place called Kosovo. It is a part of Serbia, but they weren’t allowed to sort out terrorists in their own country. When they killed non-US civilians they were bombed by the US. That was perfectly acceptable to the west, as was expropriating the country in question and installing a puppet government. The Russians, following the example, are on the same moral platform.”
“Given the concerted effort by the US to destabilize Russia it is not in its interest to create civil and ethnic wars on its own borders”
What about Chechnya with the genocide against an ethnic and religious minority and all the other republics who want independence.
“I don’t automatically support independence. Incidentally I don’t support a referendum to give Texas back to the Mexicans, or Gibralter to the Spanish”
There was a referendum about that recently, the population voted to remain British, if they had voted into join Spain they would have…democracy is great isn’t it. I have no problem with Texas having a vote, or Chechnya. It is democracy at work.
But you are saying that you do support secession in certain cases even if this is not automatically the case…what when territory wishes to join Russia, but not when it wants to become independent from Russia…seems a little unfair.
“You appear to support freedom of speech and a free press, but you just excused Saakashvili sending his heavies in to rough up journalists. Is that logical?”
I have never excused any curbs on the freedom of the press, but you have given no proof that people where killed, imprisoned, and beaten. The only ‘proof’ you have is a commercial decision and the curbing of Russian propaganda which called for the Russians to invade Georgia. There is freedom but not the freedom to encourage murder or violence.
People in Northern Ireland are British by birth, but can hold Irish passports and be Irish • you must try harder.
So what? We are all mature democracies. We do not kill each other, the vast majority never did, except terrorists like the IRA, which where supported by Russia, a common theme that.
“NATO had UN resolution 1244, Russia doesn’t”
“1244 Didn’t authorise the use of force.”
It did retrospectively, signed by the Security Council, including by Russia so it must have been a moral and justifiable mission.
I’ve never said I agreed with the invasion of Kosovo. But none of these matters to what is happening now, today, as we speak. I truly believe that the Russian invasion was a massive blunder by Russia. A blunder that will do massive and increasing harm to Russia in the future.
This is about the innocent people dying due to an illegal invasion by Russia. All the rest is a smoke screen to had from the fact that this is an illegal act by Russia and is leading to the murder of innocents
John Bull:
“If adult debate frustrates bang your head against a wall, but keep your profanities to yourself.”
I don’t think John Bull is a Russian Troll, he’s a Beeboid to the core if that comment is anything to judge by…
An inflamed sense of impropriety and self-importance that they think extends further than the halls of Broadcasting Towers where they march up and down waving their cane at all the simpering junior hacks that cower past them. Your command doesn’t extend here John Bull. If you have a problem with profanity here then can I suggest you fuck off.
Actually,John Bull sounds more like that wanker Korova.
“As it happens I was talking about the British invading Ireland, Not the other way around, you pillock.
Peter | 12.08.08 – 7:19 pm”
I told you to stay on the sidelines for the simple reason that you are too obtuse to keep up. I knew you were talking about the British invading Ireland, but your spin on the analogy didn’t work because Northern Ireland is a part of Britain the same way South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. The parallel was the Russians invading to stop Georgian aggression and help people who were injured and fleeing South Ossetia, and the Irish plan to do the same in Northern Ireland when the B Specials were doing their business. You were too ignorant to see the point, but that’s usually genetic so I don’t blame you.
The rest in response to Ivan3,
“Georgia does not ‘rough up’ or kill journalists, Russia does.” and “I have never excused any curbs on the freedom of the press, but you have given no proof that people where killed, imprisoned, and beaten..” Ivan3 | 12.08.08 – 8:14
So you want Saakashvili’s police who invaded a TV studio and assaulted staff to investigate themselves? The same forces of a country that shells civilians then denies doing so. Is the US much better than Russia – targeting and killing make-up artists and other civilians workers in Belgrade? Are the BBC and Jamie O’Shea legitimate to be forcibly taken off the air for their lies justifying the bombing of Serbian civilians.
“Using your reasoning that should read Chechen freedom fighters fighting against massive human rights abuses and genocide”
I’m sure the slaughter of children at Beslan was freedom fighting to you. Your “principles” seem to vary depending on whether Russians or other nationalities are on the receiving end.
“So he [Litvinenko] should have been murdered then?? Not for selling nuclear weapons, murder, trying to cause world war” “…but because he had friends you don’t like……that is really sick,”
Oh no. Don’t attribute your standards of reasoning to me. I only point out that if you don’t want to be killed it would be injudicious to keep terrorists, and wanted criminals as your pals • or even to beat people up on tape (torture some might call it).
“What proof, there has been allegations that some people conspired to murder. No one has said the UK government had the official policy to murder innocents. If you have proof I trust you will give to the police so that these people can be prosecuted..”
So you don’t require proof to attribute blame to the Russian government but you do require proof to attribute blame to the British government. Why is that then?
” ‘Kosovo is part of Serbia under international law. Any clampdown on terrorists there is called nationalism. Double standard there.’
what when territory wishes to join Russia, but not when it wants to become independent from Russia…seems a little unfair.”
It’s unfair on the Mexicans in Texas, and the remaining Serbs in Kosovo but “that’s just the way the cookie crumbles”.
“It [resolution 1244] did retrospectively, signed by the Security Council, including by Russia so it must have been a moral and justifiable mission.”
From what I can see that is disputed by experts, but I would be interested in any conclusive proof you can provide for this.
“This is about the innocent people dying due to an illegal invasion by Russia.” and “… this is an illegal act by Russia and is leading to the murder of innocents.”
You don’t give a hoot about innocent people dying • only those killed by Russians. I await your condemnation of the Georgian murder of South Ossetians.
Hi ya bully-boy, hope you are well
John Bull:
regarding Peter,
“I told you to stay on the sidelines for the simple reason that you are too obtuse to keep up…..”
Temper temper. Who the hell are you to call any one obtuse, or try to ban them from discussion? Very fascist-like if you ask me, though obviously you’re not a fascist, unless you want to confess to it. You and I don’t seem to agree on this issue but I don’t try to stop you making your point (however ineptly)….it’s called freedom of speech, I thought you where keen on that, or is it only if it supports Russia?
“You were too ignorant to see the point, but that’s usually genetic so I don’t blame you.”
For some reason fascists are keen on eugenics…obviously those who disagree with you need to be committed to asylums for ‘re-education’ or is it euthanized?
“So you want Saakashvili’s police who invaded a TV studio and assaulted staff to investigate themselves?”
What about Reporters without Borders, Amnesty International, European Court of Human Rights, even the BBC, and many many other organisations that exist solely to investigate such abuses? That is what they do (except the BBC sometimes) often at great risk to themselves. None of them have any idea of any Georgian murders of journalists; they have plenty on the 55 journalists killed for criticising the Russian government. For some reason you don’t care about them…where they ‘dubious’ to and deserved murdering?
At least you’ve changed your mind about it was police, acting on a court order, rather than Special Forces.
“Is the US much better than Russia – targeting and killing make-up artists and other civilians workers in Belgrade?”
Yes much better. The deaths where done in the heat of war by accident, Russia murders journalists in cold blood and stops the murderers being found. These tragic deaths where a one off, Russia keeps killing journalists, I suppose everyone needs a hobby.
“Are the BBC and Jamie O’Shea legitimate to be forcibly taken off the air for their lies justifying the bombing of Serbian civilians.”
Examples of this please…if they acted illegally they should be prosecuted in court, complaints made to the regulators, etc., if convicted then one of the legal options is removal of broadcasting licence, as I said, where is your proof, not of incompetency, or even bias, but of a criminal act.
“I’m sure the slaughter of children at Beslan was freedom fighting to you.”
No they where murderers who killed innocents. So you agree that the murder of expulsion of over 400,000 people in Chechnya is a crime against humanity and the perpetrators should be brought to justice?
“Your “principles” seem to vary depending on whether Russians or other nationalities are on the receiving end.”
No, I condemn the murder of innocents wherever they are.
“Oh no. Don’t attribute your standards of reasoning to me.”
I don’t attach any standards of reasoning to you at all, that’s your problem
“I only point out that if you don’t want to be killed it would be injudicious to keep terrorists, and wanted criminals as your pals • or even to beat people up on tape (torture some might call it).”
So he was asking for it because of his friends, or rather who you think are his friends? Civilised states do not murder people, especially those who are nationals in other states. If this where the case the world would be chaos, America could murder dubious people in Russia, UK could kill dubious people in America, China in Belgium..and so on ad infinitum….this would be chaos, that is why it is illegal under international law…you know the law that tries to keep the world safe and running smoothly…..Russia is of course a signature to all these laws.
You do agree that Russia should murder people if it want to then…that’s not very nice is it, naughty Bully-boy
“So you don’t require proof to attribute blame to the Russian government but you do require proof to attribute blame to the British government. Why is that then?”
Allow the accused to be questioned and any proof to be tested in a court of law, observed by international organisations to ensure fairness.
“It’s unfair on the Mexicans in Texas, and the remaining Serbs in Kosovo but “that’s just the way the cookie crumbles”.
You seem to have a problem with the concept of democracy…if the majority of the population vote for secession in a fair referendum then the majority rule. I am confused about your views on S/O…independent or not…to join Russia, or not…….what is it?
“[resolution 1244] From what I can see that is disputed by experts, but I would be interested in any conclusive proof you can provide for this.”
The text states ‘Place Kosovo under interim UN administration (currently performed by the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK); and to authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo’
Not terribly complicated is it? Then as I’ve said you don’t know my views on Kosovo, this is about the illegal invasion of Georgia by Russia, still a good way to distract people.
“You don’t give a hoot about innocent people dying • only those killed by Russians. I await your condemnation of the Georgian murder of South Ossetians.”
What are you six years old? You have no idea of my views on the murder of innocents… of course you never do condemn Russia for the couple of hundred thousand dead in Chechnya, or the other disputed areas of Russia, or the murder of journalists, or even the killing of Georgian civilians……what do you think….or are they all ‘dubious’ and needed killing for their own good! Nice to see you agree that Russia is killing innocent people, a move in the right direction.
I have to say you are not very good at this are you, this is not about crimes of forty years ago, it is not about Kosovo, not about America, not about Rwanda, Holland, Hull….it is about now and the illegal invasion of a sovereign state by of country with an appalling human rights record, I mean to say 22.5% of all cases before the European Court of Human Rights concern Russia, for some reason this does not seem to matter to you…I wonder why…to use your term.
“At least you’ve changed your mind about it was police, acting on a court order, rather than Special Forces. Ivan3 | 13.08.08 – 12:12 am”
No, the New York Times and those at the scene referred to special forces. Since you were not there I will take their word for it.
“Yes much better. The deaths [Of those in the Radio Televizija Srbija station hit by a NATO missile] where done in the heat of war by accident,”
Nonsense. They were deliberately targeted by NATO. Check the facts. To describe the deaths of those civilians as “much better” is a disgraceful comment. I condemn all killings of Journalists. Are you against the deliberate targeting of journalists and civilians or not?
“Examples of this please…[Reporting of NATO lies during the bombing of Belgrade] if they acted illegally they should be prosecuted in court, complaints made to the regulators, etc., if convicted then one of the legal options is removal of broadcasting licence, as I said, where is your proof, not of incompetency, or even bias, but of a criminal act.”
You walked into another one. The US had not found the staff in Radio Televizija Srbija guilty of a criminal act • they just dropped a bomb on them. Check out Clinton’s lies about numerous massacres, 100,000 bodies, massacres of thousands of men at the football stadium in Pristina, the famous “Operation Horseshoe”. These were all lies intended to justify cluster bombing Serb civilians, which the BBC swallowed and broadcasted without asking for evidence.
“So you agree that the murder of expulsion of over 400,000 people in Chechnya is a crime against humanity and the perpetrators should be brought to justice?”
Since I believe the Hague is a politically motivated court, which fails to prosecute Muslim butchers from the Balkans, the answer is no.
“No they [those who slaughtered children in Beslan] where murderers who killed innocents.”
That’s right from the gutter. You are defending people who did terrorise children (there can be no other word for it) as freedom fighters. You called them freedom fighters because they are Chechen I call them terrorists because they terrorised children.
“You do agree that Russia should murder people if it want to then…that’s not very nice is it, naughty Bully-boy”
You only patronise a straw man. You are getting childish now, but I knew you would.
“Allow the accused to be questioned and any proof to be tested in a court of law, observed by international organisations to ensure fairness.”
I agree, but you have already found the Russian state guilty, whereas you give the British state the benefit of the doubt.
“You seem to have a problem with the concept of democracy…if the majority of the population vote for secession in a fair referendum then the majority rule. I am confused about your views on S/O…independent or not…to join Russia, or not…….what is it?”
Like I said until I see what the future holds I think a return to the status quo is best for the region. Since you support the majority of Texans voting to become part of Mexico I say you are not in the real world.
“The text states ‘Place Kosovo under interim UN administration (currently performed by the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK); and to authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo’”
You said 1244 justified the murderous bombing of Kosovo and Serbia, I asked for conclusive proof and you don’t have any.
“Nice to see you agree that Russia is killing innocent people, a move in the right direction.”
Where there is evidence that Russia has deliberately targeted civilians I wouldn’t support them. Unfortunately that doesn’t extend to most on here who exercise a double standard and support Georgia attacking civilians; and some of them the US cluster bombing of Serbian civilians.
Bully.
“John Bull:
“the New York Times and those at the scene referred to special forces. Since you were not there I will take their word for it.”…..Prove it, I cannot find it on their archive. Their report dealing with the closing down of the station says it was done by police, no mention of murders; beating, imprisonments, or even arrests, nor Special Forces, so I ask again prove it or stop lying what their report actually says is:- “The state of emergency has curtailed Georgians’ freedom to demonstrate and has shut down most independent television and radio, including the opposition Imedi television station…. Mr. Saakashvili’s government… have insisted that Wednesday’s police response was necessary to avert a coup. In general, we think the actions of the police were adequate in proportion to the dangers,” Shota Utiashvili, the head of the Interior Ministry’s Department of Analysis, said in an interview, adding that there were fears that protesters would attempt to storm the Parliament building.”(http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/world/europe/11georgia.html)
That is a police operation in response to a law passed by the Parliament aimed at stopping violence. As I said stop lying or prove it. I respect the NY Times greatly; I also admire all the previously mentioned organisations who have more time, more contacts and more experience in attacks on press freedom… none of them mention special forces, murder, beatings, arrests, etc.. Since you are keen on the impartiality of the NY Times you will agree with their story on the Georgian people coming together to fight the invasion, “As swaths of the country fell before Russian troops, it was not only the army that rose in its defense but also regular citizens, as part of a Georgian tradition, based both in myth and fact, that stretches back to medieval times.” (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/world/europe/12civilians.html), or what about the article entitled “Russia Blames the Victim” (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/opinion/12cornell.html).
“Nonsense. They were deliberately targeted by NATO. Check the facts. To describe the deaths of those civilians as “much better” is a disgraceful comment. I condemn all killings of Journalists.”…..You haven’t condemned the murder of Russian journalists critical of the Putin Government, or the innocent dead in Chechnya. I’m amazed at your knowledge of the decision making of NATO military and politicians, are you a mind reader, or a NATO general…prove it. Don’t smear prove….. Are you against the deliberate targeting of journalists and civilians or not? ….As I’ve said I’m against the killing of innocents…including journalists.
“You walked into another one. The US had not found the staff in Radio Televizija Srbija guilty of a criminal act • they just dropped a bomb on them.”….To explain for the hard of thinking…Accident is the result of technical failure, human error; I’ve never said the journalists where guilty of anything, nor has the US, or NATO. It was an accident. Murder of journalists, or anyone, involves the ordering of the death of someone, in Russia’s case the death of a known, named person, then sending someone to murder them in cold blood. Murder is to do so time and time again over several years. Russia murders journalists. A fact that you seem to support.
“These were all lies intended to justify cluster bombing Serb civilians, which the BBC swallowed and broadcasted without asking for evidence.”….How d you know? Prove it. You are not talking of BBC bias her you are talking of a criminal act; prove it was a deliberate one.
“So you agree that the murder of expulsion of over 400,000 people in Chechnya is a crime against humanity and the perpetrators should be brought to justice?”…..”Since I believe the Hague is a politically motivated court, which fails to prosecute Muslim butchers from the Balkans, the answer is no.”…..A couple of hundred thousand dead, the torture and rape of half the prisoners taken by Russia in Chechnya is OK (a figure form the Russian Human Rights Ombudsman Oleg Mironov) is fine then. And you think I was callous!!!! By the way the Hague court has tried the following KLA (that will be Muslims to you) KLA prison guard Haradin Bala sentenced to 13 years by the ICTY. Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu acquitted, ex KLA Commander and Kosovo Prime Minister Ramush Haradinaj, commander of the Black Eagles Idriz Balaj and KLA Deputy Commander Lahi Brahimaj at trial in ICTY, in Bosnia the following Muslims (you and your Russian chums really don’t like Muslims apparently) Mehmed Alagi, Haradin Bala, Idriz Balaj, Beq Beqaj, Lahi Brahimaj, Zejnil Delalić, Hazim Delić, Rasim Delić, Enver Hadihasanović, Sefer Halilović, Amir Kubura, Esad Lando, where tried. Wrong again then. Now that you know Muslims are tried at The Hague do you agree that the Russian perpetrators of comes against humanity should be tried. I do wonder about your aversion to Muslims, but we’ll let that pass.
“[Beslam] That’s right from the gutter. You are defending people who did terrorise children (there can be no other word for it) as freedom fighters. You called them freedom fighters because they are Chechen I call them terrorists because they terrorised children.”…You don’t call Russians who kill and torture children terrorists though. In what way is saying that I condemn the Beslam killers supporting them? As I said you really are not very good at this. We’ll take a just war WW2, take the allied side. They where fighting a good, just fight (I hope we can all agree on that), but if a number of people, up to and including officers, general, or politicians, order the cold blooded murder of any innocent..We’ll take children as an example, than that is an unjust, illegal act. An act that should be condemned and punished to the maximum. But that would not make the fight against fascism unjust. I condemn totally, and utterly the murder of children by anyone; you don’t seem to though, at least as long as they are committed by Russians. Following on form your definition then the Russians are terrorists as they are terrorizing innocent children and civilians, believe me being bombed is terrifying.
“You do agree that Russia should murder people if it want to then…that’s not very nice is it, naughty Bully-boy”,…..”You only patronise a straw man. You are getting childish now, but I knew you would.”….Actually I’m not patronizing I’m politely showing contempt. You do support the murder of people by Russia though. I would suggest the support of murder is the definition of not being naughty. I would not call you a straw man, I’ve much better words.
“Allow the accused to be questioned and any proof to be tested in a court of law, observed by international organizations to ensure fairness.”…”I agree, but you have already found the Russian state guilty, whereas you give the British state the benefit of the doubt.”…Prove it, I am not a court of law, I’ve said that anyone guilty of murder should be prosecuted. You will agree that if there is evidence against any Russian, or American, or Greek, or whoever, that they have murdered someone in the UK they should be tried in a UK court.
“Like I said until I see what the future holds I think a return to the status quo is best for the region. Since you support the majority of Texans voting to become part of Mexico I say you are not in the real world.” ….I really think you are either stupid or doing it deliberately. I’ll now explain as if it was for a child…do try to keep up.. Any area if they feel they want to have a right to call a referendum, depending on local and national, in my opinion should. This is my opinion not law, however if the law allows such a referendum it should be held, provided it has enough signatures, or whatever local criteria used to call such an act. This can be about bin collection times, pub opening times, or to succeed, as happens in Scotland. What the people say in a fair referendum goes, as long as it is not illegal under the wider law. If Scotland voted to become independent I would be sad but would go along with their decision. Now this is the complicated bit, at least it seem so for you…the act of referendum is not the important bit, it is the will of the people expressed in the referendum that is important, Scotland have had votes before and have voted no to independence, I’m sure Texans would vote to remain in the US. Is this clear now…do you now or do you need pictures, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendum; http://www.amoreperfectconstitution.com/teacher_resources/constitfairhsms_eng.pdf, then again this is a distraction form an illegal invasion.
“You said 1244 justified the murderous bombing of Kosovo and Serbia, I asked for conclusive proof and you don’t have any.”…..If it where an illegal act do you think the UN, including Russia, would put NATO in charge?
“Where there is evidence that Russia has deliberately targeted civilians I wouldn’t support them. Unfortunately that doesn’t extend to most on here who exercise a double standard and support Georgia attacking civilians; and some of them the US cluster bombing of Serbian civilians.”…Firstly cluster bombers were not illegal at that time, and Russia has refused to ban then. Obviously I don’t have your in-depth knowledge of the thoughts of the Russian leaders (this is sarcasm by the way) but the murder of journalists in Georgia, the Russians really don’t like a free press do they, four journalists murdered by Russians, or Russian controlled Forces http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=28147. The bombing of civilian areas with no military importance does seem to suggest the targeting of civilians. 129 civilians dead and nearly 800 injured in what is uncontested Georgian territory seem to prove it. Obviously to you this are unimportant, I mean you support cold blooded murder and the killing of 200,000 Chechens, but to normal people this is the targeting of
just to finish the line it should read:
but to normal people this is the targeting of civilians, on civilian deaths http://www.agi.it/world/news/200808121302-cro-ren0037-art.html. and you have already accepted that Russia does, and in your opinion should, murder innocent people for being ‘dubious’, then there is those Russian journalists deliberately murdered for criticizing the Russian State. They are all innocent. All murdered, all deliberately targeted by the Russian State.
You are getting vacuous really you are, on purpose I hope. This is an illegal attack, Russia kills journalists, Russia has massive human rights abuse record, Russia murders people, Russia kills 200,000 people….and that’s fine by you. Sad really. Sad in case you really think this, but sadder if you think you are doing Russia any good at being so bad at it.
Bull
“I told you to stay on the sidelines for the simple reason that you are too obtuse to keep up. I knew you were talking about the British invading Ireland, but your spin on the analogy didn’t work because Northern Ireland is a part of Britain the same way South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. The parallel was the Russians invading to stop Georgian aggression and help people who were injured and fleeing South Ossetia, and the Irish plan to do the same in Northern Ireland when the B Specials were doing their business. You were too ignorant to see the point, but that’s usually genetic so I don’t blame you.”
So now you have been caught out you change your story,pathetic.Took you a long time to come up with that incoherent mish mash.
I would be interested to know who told you you were intelligent,because from this end you look like just another left wing mong.
An arrogant patronising manner may serve you in the corridors of whatever institution you inhabit,but they won’t work here.
I have scraped better than you off my shoe.
Ivan3
I feel sorry for Putin’s Poodle,a pathetic little slobbering lap dog capering to please its master.
Pathetic these lefties ever fawning over dictators, always eager to get their little heads patted.
Here Doggy Doggy!
Some more of you droppings John Bull
“Unfortunately that doesn’t extend to most on here who exercise a double standard and support Georgia attacking civilians; and some of them the US cluster bombing of Serbian civilians.”
Cluster bombs are area weapons designed to deny access to airstrips and destroy tank formations.
Just another of the inaccuracies in that festering pit of a poodle brain of yours.
“So now you have been caught out you change your story,pathetic.Took you a long time to come up with that incoherent mish mash. Peter | 13.08.08 – 11:54 am”
I had to explain the analogy to you because you are ignorant of the situation in Ireland. Get over it.
“Prove it, I cannot find it on their (NY Time) archive.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/world/europe/08georgia.html
I didn’t say I trusted the New York Times any more than I trust the BBC • I don’t. I said I would take their word over yours.
“You haven’t condemned the murder of Russian journalists critical of the Putin Government” and “Russia murders journalists. A fact that you seem to support.”
But I had stated in my previous post “I condemn all killings of Journalists.” Why are you posting the same nonsense again and again? I will demonstrate below why you believe the murders of some journalists are better than other murders.
“To explain for the hard of thinking…Accident is the result of technical failure, human error; I’ve never said the journalists [Serbians bombed by NATO in 1999] where guilty of anything, nor has the US, or NATO. It was an accident.”
It seems you are hard of thinking since you are unable to follow the thread of your own argument. You argued that the US bombing of civilians (make-up artists and others) in the Belgrade TV station was a “much better” act than Putin allegedly killing journalists. I then asked if it was justifiable for the BBC and NATO propaganda outlets to be bombed. You then asked for proof of a “criminal act”. I pointed out that there was no such proof of a criminal act against the Serbian TV station, and then (you lose the thread again at this point) you proceed to tell me you “never said they were guilty of anything”, and “nor has the US, or NATO.”
But that is wrong. NATO and the US did accuse the journalists of “propaganda” and knowing there would be civilians in the building went on to bomb the building and kill civilians.
“Murder of journalists, or anyone, involves the ordering of the death of someone, in Russia’s case the death of a known, named person, then sending someone to murder them in cold blood”
No it doesn’t. Is it OK to throw a bomb at the BBC studios in Wood Lane and then claim you had only intended to hit the building, and were not ordered to kill journalists so are not responsible for the murder of any civilians killed?
“Now that you know Muslims are tried at The Hague do you agree that the Russian perpetrators of comes against humanity should be tried..”
You spent a lot of time Googling for names of muslims tried by the Hague, but you wasted your time. They have failed to prosecute known war criminals in Bosnia identified by Canadian forces as being involved in the rape and burning to death of women, and mass murder. The same war criminals went on to commit crimes in Kosovo, but were still not indicted. Various butchers have been let off with slaps on the wrist despite being implicated in and in control of forces that mass murdered Serbs, KLA suspected war criminals were taken so seriously by the Hague that they released them on bail. For those reasons I believe the hague is a sham, but that’s not worth your time Googling for information on since that remains my opinion.
“You don’t call Russians who kill and torture children terrorists though. In what way is saying that I condemn the Beslam killers supporting them?”
You refuse to refer to people who deliberately target and terrorise children as terrorists • are you sure you don’t work for the BBC? Show me anyone who has deliberately tortured or killed an innocent man, woman, or child anywhere and I will call them a terrorist and condemn them. You will not • the terrorists at Beslan were “Chechen freedom fighters” to you.
“Prove it, I am not a court of law, I’ve said that anyone guilty of murder should be prosecuted. You will agree that if there is evidence against any Russian, or American, or Greek, or whoever, that they have murdered someone in the UK they should be tried in a UK court.”
Yes, that includes MI6 shooting people with poison darts in London during the cold war, and civilians being targeted by British Forces in Northern Ireland for loyalist death squads. Where there is an extradition treaty with a foreign country and their constitution does not forbid their citizens being extradited then yes they should be extradited and face trial.
“I’m sure Texans would vote to remain in the US.”
Again I say you’re not in the real world if you want to apply the principal of the majority to any state, region or people who want it. Artificially carving up countries and continents would cause more trouble than it would solve.
“If it where an illegal act [NATO bombing of Serbia] do you think the UN, including Russia, would put NATO in charge?”
I asked for conclusive proof. You googled for info on reolution 1244 and pasted it here. That isn’t conclusive proof. 1244 is disputed by experts.
“Firstly cluster bombers were not illegal at that time, and Russia has refused to ban then.”
I don’t care if they were illegal or not, but bombing civilian areas with such weapons (whether NATO, Russia or Georgia does it) is wrong. I think it’s wrong everywhere you think it’s wrong only when Russia does it.
Bully-boy
“John Bull:
I didn’t say I trusted the New York Times any more than I trust the BBC • I don’t. I said I would take their word over yours.”
The article says it was a police unit not army Special Forces. The UK has special police units •firearms, riot, murder, rape…they are not military. As the article I posted a link to, and EVERY report, and organization say they were not military, there was no murders, etc., but why would you use NY Times if you not believe them? Let’s face it you are wrong here and everyone knows it. Don’t believe me, I can live with that, but do believe everyone else who was there. I note you don’t support the lie on Russian press freedom though.
“You argued that the US bombing of civilians (make-up artists and others) in the Belgrade TV station was a “much better” act than Putin allegedly killing journalists.”
Here we go again. The death of all innocents is tragic. Killing people by accident, mistake, etc., is a tragedy, but Russia sets out to murder journalists who disagree with them. An accident is better than sending out assassins to murder people by shooting them in their heads. And to do so 59 time over several years is worse than a one off mistake. There is no allegedly about it these 59 civilians were targeted for criticising the Putin government • no ifs, no buts.
Accident = tragic: deliberate assassination = murder
Murder is always worse than accident.
“You then asked for proof of a “criminal act”. I pointed out that there was no such proof of a criminal act against the Serbian TV station, and then (you lose the thread again at this point) you proceed to tell me you “never said they were guilty of anything”, and “nor has the US, or NATO.”
The willful murder of civilians is a criminal act, so is the targeting of journalists that is the criminal act I was talking about. You don’t seem to be very good at following an argument. The people who died in the TV station where innocent. The criminal act I was referring to is the attack, if you have proof that it was deliberate that would make the attack an illegal act. If you have proof, you being a mind-reader, or high-up in NATO then report it to either the National courts, who have tried NATO personnel for war crimes, or the European Court of Human Rights. Don’t smear or lie. Is that clear enough?
“But that is wrong. NATO and the US did accuse the journalists of “propaganda” and knowing there would be civilians in the building went on to bomb the building and kill civilians.”
Proof please. You also accuse the BBC and Western media of propaganda, so why do you think Serbian TV at that time is different? The never said ‘so we’ll kill them’ you have no proof that it was a deliberate act, if you do report it so the perpetrators can be tried.
“Murder of journalists, or anyone, involves the ordering of the death of someone, in Russia’s case the death of a known, named person, then sending someone to murder them in cold blood”
“No it doesn’t. Is it OK to throw a bomb at the BBC studios in Wood Lane and then claim you had only intended to hit the building, and were not ordered to kill journalists so are not responsible for the murder of any civilians killed?”
No a DELIBARATE attack on civilians is obscene; you have no proof that the attack was deliberate, see above. To send someone out to look a named person with orders to shoot them in the head is worse. As I’ve said accidents happen, but the ordering the murder of innocent people in cold blood reflects a twisted view of humanity. Such a mindset that allows people to invade democratic countries and kill thousands in innocent civilians.
“You spent a lot of time Googling for names of muslims tried by the Hague, but you wasted your time. They have failed to prosecute known war criminals in Bosnia identified by Canadian forces as being involved in the rape and burning to death of women, and mass murder. The same war criminals went on to commit crimes in Kosovo, but were still not indicted. Various butchers have been let off with slaps on the wrist despite being implicated in and in control of forces that mass murdered Serbs, KLA suspected war criminals were taken so seriously by the Hague that they released them on bail. For those reasons I believe the hague is a sham”
What are you talking about? You said no Muslim’s (upper case M please, them again you seem to have a problem with Muslims) where tried at The Hague…you were either mistaken or lying. These people where tried at the Hague, some where acquitted, most were not, this is a court of law not a show trial, these people included the PM of Kosovo, generals, army commanders, undoubtedly some more will be caught and tried when they are found, Radan Karadzic has just been arrested after all these years, so there is hope for the trial of other war criminals, (unless there Russian). The court is slow but that is no reason to protect Russian, or any other war criminals for justice.
For someone who distrusts NATO it is slightly odd that you base your whole argument for not trying Russians for war crimes is based upon NATO… they could by lying (in your view). The fact is ‘Muslims’ where and are being tried for war crimes, so should Russians, or the British (one has already been convicted),
“You refuse to refer to people who deliberately target and terrorise children as terrorists”
You are getting pathetic you supporter of genocide. The murder of children is evil, it is an act of terrorism the perpetrators should be condemned and prosecuted in an open an fair trial….this is not controversial….except to you….we’ll try again…. suppose one of your beloved Russian soldiers rapes someone. This is a criminal act, the person is a rapist…but you do not call the rest of the Russian army, or indeed all Russians, rapists…that would be stupid……Beslam was a terrorist act, one which as I keep saying, I condemn, but not all Chechens are terrorists. They just want to stop the genocide against them. The fight against genocide is legal act.
“the terrorists at Beslan were “Chechen freedom fighters” to you.”
That is a lie from someone who agrees dubious people should be murdered and that it is OK to murder 200,000 Chechens, or invade other countries.
“Yes, that includes MI6 shooting people with poison darts in London during the cold war”
That is a lie. The only person murdered by poison dart in London during the cold war was killed by Soviet assassins’; since the killer has admitted it this is not controversial. Get your facts right or stop lying
,”and civilians being targeted by British Forces in Northern Ireland for loyalist death squads.”#
If there is proof then I have no problem with having a fair trial, but as I’ve said the allegations do not refer to government policy rather to individuals….if anyone, individual, officer, or politicians conspired to murder civilians then the should face trial. But you think that Russians should be able to massacre and torture with impunity….where are talking of hundreds or thousands, moving into the million of victims here…..this is happening now. You cannot justify current acts by linking them to the past…as I’ve said if you have proof against anyone report them so justice can be done.
We are talking abut official Russian Government policy not individuals.
“Where there is an extradition treaty with a foreign country and their constitution does not forbid their citizens being extradited then yes they should be extradited and face trial.”
Change to constitution Russia is supposed to be a democracy….since it breaches Article 2 of the Russian Constitution which deals with human rights protected daily I don’t think the law is too binding to them.
“I’m sure Texans would vote to remain in the US.”
“Again I say you’re not in the real world if you want to apply the principal of the majority to any state, region or people who want it. Artificially carving up countries and continents would cause more trouble than it would solve. ”
So the majority view does not count? Democracy really is not your strong point. As I’ve said bully-bob, this is my personal view, I do not run the US or Texas, you don’t seem concerned by the ethnic cleansing of S/O by Russia though…another case that the rules do not apply to Russia, S/O has become a ethnically ‘pure’ state under Russian control
“I asked for conclusive proof. You googled for info on reolution 1244 and pasted it here. That isn’t conclusive proof. 1244 is disputed by experts.”
Didn’t need to Google it….what experts? Go on Google it. It is pathetic that we are supposed to take your word for everything, from someone who agrees with murder, without checking the facts for oneself. Things would be so much easier if everyone believed your lies, or if the fact you say something made it true. But that is not the real world.
“I don’t care if they were illegal or not, but bombing civilian areas with such weapons (whether NATO, Russia or Georgia does it) is wrong. I think it’s wrong everywhere you think it’s wrong only when Russia does it.”
And the proof that cluster bombs where deliberately dropped on civilians is? Cluster bombs work against runways, or massed light armor or tightly packed armies. It is rubbish at attacking buildings; small bombs are not good at destroying buildings and the people inside them. A larger single bomb would kill much more effect. As I’ve said prove cluster bombs where used deliberately against civilians. Prove that civilians where deliberately targeted at all.
So you agree with murder of dubious people, that Russians should be able to kill hundreds of thousands, invade anyone they feel, and are blessed by being able to read mind. You agree that Russia has destroyed press freedom, has an atrocious human rights record.
Are you feeling all right?? Really you should examine your views on the world.
“”EVERY report, and organization say they were not military, there was no murders, etc., but why [omitted since you failed to provide a quote for comments attributed to me] Let’s face it you are wrong here and everyone knows it. Don’t believe me, I can live with that, but do believe everyone else who was there. [omitted since you failed to provide a quote for comments attributed to me].”
Not everyone else who was there says they were police, including the people from Imedi TV, International Herald Tribune etc. You were not there so have no idea.
The article says “Imedi TV, went off the air as a special forces unit, armed and wearing dark masks, entered the station’s offices”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/08/world/europe/08georgia.html
“Here we go again. The death of all innocents is tragic. Killing people by accident, mistake, etc., is a tragedy, but Russia sets out to murder journalists who disagree with them. An accident is better than sending out assassins to murder people by shooting them in their heads. And “…if you have proof that it was deliberate that would make the attack an illegal act. If you have proof, you being a mind-reader, or high-up in NATO”
No, I’m not high up in NATO. I just keep up with happenings in the world, which you don’t. I repeat, you had lost the thread of your own argument. You asked for proof of a criminal act commited by the BBC when I raised the parallel of NATO bombing Radio Televizija Srbija with the possibility of the BBC or NATO being bombed for their propaganda.
Again it was not an accident. NATO targeted, and admitted targeting, Radio Televizija Srbija. Do you agree with the killing of journalists or not? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/apr/24/balkans3
“That is a lie from someone who agrees dubious people should be murdered [omitted since you failed to provide any quote for comments attributed to me].
No, I said Litvinenko had dubious contacts so there may have been many people who wanted him dead. I did not say he deserved to die and if you say I did then start backing it up. Now do you agree that the people who held hostage and murdered hundreds of children in Beslan were terrorists or not??
“If there is proof then I have no problem with having a fair trial, but as I’ve said the allegations do not refer to government policy rather to individuals….if anyone, individual, officer, or politicians conspired to murder civilians then the should face trial. But you think that Russians should be able to massacre and torture…[omitted since you failed to provide quotes for commnts attributed to me].
Well at least we agree on that. The Russians actually agreed to put the suspect in the Litvinenko case on trial in Russia. Britain has failed to prosecute anyone in connection with involvement in the murder of Pat Finucane, despite John Stephens investigating and finding that collusion did indeed take place, and with knowledge at a senior level. And Russia are meant to be worse than us.
“Change to constitution Russia is supposed to be a democracy….since it breaches Article 2 of the Russian Constitution which deals with human rights protected daily I don’t think the law is too binding to them.”
Involvement in murder is illegal. Nobody has been prosecuted for British state collusion with loyalist death squads in the murder of Pat Finucane.
“So the majority view does not count? Democracy really is not your strong point. As I’ve said bully-bob, this is my personal view, I do not run the US or Texas, you don’t seem concerned by the ethnic cleansing of S/O by Russia though…another case that the rules do not apply to Russia, S/O has become a ethnically ‘pure’ state under Russian control”
Why are you asking the same questions again and again? I said there are cases where I think it would be unwise to apply a vote for indpendence in a state, or region etc. due to the possibilities foe greater unrest, or in the ridiculous cases you propose like Texas etc. Or, I would add, even the Basque country.
“Go on Google it [1244].”
I did. You didn’t provide a link either. Only a text which you gave your interpretation of.
“As I’ve said prove cluster bombs where used deliberately against civilians. Prove that civilians where deliberately targeted at all.”
The issue is the cowardly NATO pilots were only willing to bomb Serbia from high or medium altitude. NATO knew from experience during the first gulf war that they were likely to miss their targets with cluster bombs from that altitude. Using such a weapon near a civilian area is no different to the IRA putting a bomb in a bin and taking a chance on whether it kills a kid or not.
“So you agree with murder of dubious people, that Russians should be able to kill hundreds of thousands,,”
Again, provide quotes from me where I have justified any of the above. I believe they have just the same right to protect their citizens for humanitarian reasons as the US and UK claimed to have in Serbia.
“you don’t seem concerned by the ethnic cleansing of S/O by Russia though…another case that the rules do not apply to Russia, S/O has become a ethnically ‘pure’ state under Russian control” Ivan3 | 13.08.08 – 5:29 pm”
I forgot to reply to that. This is no different from what happened in Kosovo. The US allowed the KLA back into Kosovo when the Serbs forces had left. They proceeded to attack Serbs and drive them out. I say its wrong in both cases.
Incidentally I think the BBC reporting is inaccurate to describe the attacks on Georgians by South Ossetians as “revenge” but then I thought it was wrong to use the same logic in Kosovo (which US government spokesmen did) and in Northern Ireland, where the revenge tag was often applied.
No Poodle,
“I had to explain the analogy to you because you are ignorant of the situation in Ireland. Get over it.”
You got it wrong and had to rewrite when called on it.Just like you got “cluster bombing” wrong.
“The issue is the cowardly NATO pilots were only willing to bomb Serbia from high or medium altitude.”
Cluster bombs are generally dropped from low altitude.
BTW,
“No, I said Litvinenko had dubious contacts so there may have been many people who wanted him dead.”
Possibly but being the first known victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome,says it was a state actor which killed him.Litvinenko was ex KGB and a critic of the Putin regime.
“Cluster bombs are generally dropped from low altitude. Peter | 13.08.08 – 10:29 pm”
Are you seriously telling me you don’t get the point? They are generally dropped from low altitude, but NATO dropped them from high and medium altitude in Serbia, which they knew, from experience in Iraq, would lead to them missing their targets.
“but being the first known victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome,says it was a state actor which killed him.Litvinenko was ex KGB”
That isn’t proof. I seem to remember investigative reporters being offered nuclear material in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union.
It was the most corrupt country going at all levels – probably still is. Having nuclear material does not prove who provided it or ordered the killing.
As for the Northern Ireland analogy, if you want to tell me how it was wrong then its your job to provide quotes. You misunderstood because you did not take account of Eire being equal to Russia in the analogy. Get over it!
“You said no Muslim’s (upper case M please, them again you seem to have a problem with Muslims) where tried at The Hague…you were either mistaken or lying. These people where tried at the Hague, some where acquitted, most were not, this is a court of law not a show trial, Ivan3 | 13.08.08 – 5:29 pm”
I didn’t say “No Muslims”. Again provide a quote of where I said that. I actually said “fails to prosecute Muslims from the Balkans”. That may well have been ambiguous, but I had particular people in mind such as Agim Çeku. If it’s not a show trial why do they release Kosovan war crimes suspects on bail? When will US allies like Turkey be put on trial for massacres of Kurds? It’s pure theatre.
“Are you seriously telling me you don’t get the point? They are generally dropped from low altitude, but NATO dropped them from high and medium altitude in Serbia, which they knew, from experience in Iraq, would lead to them missing their targets.”
Bull you simply do not know what you are talking about,you certainly do not know anything about the nature of cluster bombs. Kosovo 1999 Iraq,2003.The first Gulf War did not involve an attack on Iraq.
“Bull you simply do not know what you are talking about,you certainly do not know anything about the nature of cluster bombs. Kosovo 1999 Iraq,2003.The first Gulf War did not involve an attack on Iraq. Peter | 13.08.08 – 11:06 pm”
So do you dispute my point that cluster bombs were used in the Gulf War and from that experience US forces knew they were prone to be inaccurate from medium and high altitude?
That is all that matters. Whether they were dropped inside Iraq, Kuwait or anywhere else is a side issue to my point. Incidentally it is quite clear that allied forces did enter Iraq in the gulf war although if you care to argue that point then military-photos is probably the best forum to do so since I don’t care.
“John Bull:
“Not everyone else who was there says they were police, including the people from Imedi TV, International Herald Tribune etc. You were not there so have no idea.
The article says “Imedi TV, went off the air as a special forces unit, armed and wearing dark masks, entered the station’s offices”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/0…/ 08georgia.html
It says they where riot police carrying gas masks, that is the only difference to standard police. They were acting in accordance to the law of the land to stop a TV station from encouraging a pro-Russian coup, 10 months later when this was stopped Russia invades, my previous NY Time’s article, published later calls them police. , the IHT references please, the Imedia TV people may be biased, but provide a reference. All groups that deal with press freedom call them police, these groups are independent advocates for press freedom and criticize every government fairly…these experts would no hide the fact.
“No, I’m not high up in NATO. I just keep up with happenings in the world, which you don’t.”
How to you know?
“You asked for proof of a criminal act committed by the BBC”
To encourage or promote an illegal war is a war crime, you therefore have proof. If you don’t you are smearing.
“Again it was not an accident. NATO targeted, and admitted targeting, Radio Televizija Srbija. Do you agree with the killing of journalists or not? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/…apr/24/ balkans3
the deliberate murder of civilians, including journalists is a crime, since you support the none-killing of innocent journalists you will wholeheartedly condemn the murder of journalists by Russia and call for those guilty of the murders and the ordering of such murders to be brought to justice. I have no problem saying if NATO did an illegal act those guilty should be brought to justice….do you agree in regards to the Russian murders? The media can be a legitimate target, look at the Rwandan genocide whipped up by the Rwandan media, see http://www.globalissues.org/article/405/media-propaganda-and-rwanda, as accord in Germany WW2 and before. As I’ve said encouragement of a crime against humanity • genocide- can make the media a legitimate target. The journalists murdered by Russia do not fall into this category, nor do the Serbian media in my opinion
“I said Litvinenko had dubious contacts so there may have been many people who wanted him dead. I did not say he deserved to die and if you say I did then start backing it up. ”
You said …”if you don’t want to be killed it would be injudicious to keep terrorists, and wanted criminals as your pals” http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/3116970980694454789/?a=27521#413436 .
“Now do you agree that the people who held hostage and murdered hundreds of children in Beslan were terrorists or not??”…I am sorry you are unable to understand, but please read the previous post VERY VERY slowly, you know the one which I call the Beslam killers terrorists….do you agree that the atrocity (murder, rape, whatever) of a group do not make the whole of a population terrorists…or do you think that all Russians are murderers because of the actions of a few?
“The Russians actually agreed to put the suspect in the Litvinenko case on trial in Russia.”
So that’s alright then…we should trust a country that sends killers out and invades democratic countries, the state can send a killer and then have a sham trial to let him off…as I said change the law to allow extradition….he cannot be put on trial in Russia he has complete immunity from prosecution as he is a MP in Putin’s government party.
“Britain has failed to prosecute anyone in connection with involvement in the murder of Pat Finucane,”
Do you have evidence then I would be happy for those involved to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law in an open and fair trial. The people behind her murder should be tried and if convicted punished to the full extent of the law. Do you think the Russian murderers and war criminals should?
” And Russia are meant to be worse than us.”…We don’t murder 59 journalists in cold blood over a six year period, and murder 200,000 Chechens. No country is perfect (except Russia in your eyes) but we are better than Russia, look at the human rights record of Russia. I’ve always loved Russia, but I would prefer to life in the West where we are not prone to such massive abuses or the threat of death.
“Involvement in murder is illegal.”…That’s big of you!! So you think that the people who murder or order the murder should be prosecuted.
“I didn’t say “No Muslims”. Again provide a quote of where I said that. I actually said “fails to prosecute Muslims from the Balkans”.”….They did and do so that is either ignorance or a lie
“I said there are cases where I think it would be unwise to apply a vote for independence in a state, or region etc. due to the possibilities foe greater unrest, or in the ridiculous cases you propose like Texas etc. Or, I would add, even the Basque country.”
You raised the example of Texas (http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/3116970980694454789/?a=27521#413365), so when is it OK for an area/country to be allowed to vote for independence…remember that the republics in the Russian state are there because of invasion. What areas should be allowed the democratic choice of self-determination of great leader?? Only if the want to be run by Russia perchance. Any state that has been invaded, as in the Russian republics, should have the right to gain their independence if they vote for it in a fair vote. Or do you think Russia should have remained part of the German empire when the Germans illegally invaded?
“I did. You didn’t provide a link either. Only a text which you gave your interpretation of.
The UN resolution 1244 can be found in full here http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/172/89/PDF/N9917289.pdf?OpenElement. This calls for all parties, including the KLA (that will be Muslims to you) to disarm, and stop killing each other. Annex 2, part 4 of the Resolution says, in full
“4. The international security presence with substantial North Atlantic Treaty Organization participation must be deployed under unified command and control and authorized to establish a safe environment for all people in Kosovo and to facilitate the safe return to their homes of all displaced persons and refugees.”…. So where are your ‘experts’ who say it was illegal??
“The issue is the cowardly NATO pilots were only willing to bomb Serbia from high or medium altitude.”…..How many wars have you fought? Do you think that you should put your life at risk if there is no need when higher altitude does not make a difference?
“NATO knew from experience during the first gulf war that they were likely to miss their targets”
There was a revolution between 1990 and 1999 with the expansion of the use of smart bombs, these are targeted. All weapons have a failure rate, every piece of technology TV, MP3 player, whatever, can fail. And people make mistakes. Are you saying that there are never any faults, no mistakes…if so the Russians are guilty of the murder of all those dying in Georgia now.
“with cluster bombs from that altitude.”…..Cluster bombs are used at low altitude because the small bomb lets need to dropped low to the ground at be sure of hitting anything. If you do it high-up they spread. This spread the use of BL-755 anti runway cluster bombs (used by Yugoslavia in 1991 against south Hungry by the by) by the RAF, they have now been banned by the RAF. These had to be released under 100 feet, that is why so many RAF aircraft where lost during this war. Serbia used cluster bombs extensively during their assaults. You will therefore condemn the Serbs and call for them to be prosecuted. See the responses of Peter above.
“Using such a weapon near a civilian area is no different to the IRA putting a bomb in a bin and taking a chance on whether it kills a kid or not.”
No it isn’t. One is a terrorist act that seeks as its sole aim to murder innocents…the other is war which always leads to the death on innocents by accident. It’s tragic but it is war and war is horrible. Since you seem to think that all NATO acts are de facto premeditated murder, then it goes without saying ALL deaths in Georgia, or Chechnya, are murders.
“So you agree with murder of dubious people, that Russians should be able to kill hundreds of thousands,,”…”Again, provide quotes from me where I have justified any of the above.”….See above. But you never condemn the hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their lives in Chechnya, or Georgia for that matter.
“I believe they have just the same right to protect their citizens for humanitarian reasons as the US and UK claimed to have in Serbia.”
Russia is moving into uncontested parts of Georgia, there is no justification, morally, or legally, to do this…you will condemn this illegal act. Look at the Russian record dealing with its own people in Russia do you truly believe they care for their people? You are wrong about that. You don’t say if you think that all war criminals •including Russian ones should be brought to justice for their acts. In spite of all the obfuscation and waffle you are spewing out there was and is no justification for Russia to invade Georgia, to invade any Georgian territory, much less than the uncontested areas.
Bully-boy,
I notice you don’t return to the MI5 murder using poison darts in London. You are talking of the murder of the Bulgarian journalist Georgi Ivanov Markov, murdered using a poison dart, who was working for the BBC as it happens and this is a BBC blog. He was murdered by KGB baked elements because of his criticism of the Soviet Union. Russia in all its guises REALY hate journalists don’t they…if there is a MI5 assassination using poison darts you will provide us with proof wont you!!!!!
Still any excuse smearing the West and promoting Russian crimes.
“the IHT references please, the Imedia TV people may be biased, but provide a reference. All groups that deal with press freedom call them police, these groups are independent advocates for press freedom and criticize every government fairly…these experts would no hide the fact.”
Why you want references when you don’t care for these references is beyond me. In any case Google “GEORGIA “special forces” TV station” and anything I have quoted will come up in the first two pages.
“do you agree in regards to the Russian murders?”
I’ve already answered that in the previous reply. Why are you going round in circles?
“You said …’if you don’t want to be killed it would be injudicious to keep terrorists, and wanted criminals as your pals’”
And I stand by that. That is not justifying a murder it’s just a common sense statement that I would apply to myself, my family or anyone else.
“do you agree that the atrocity (murder, rape, whatever) of a group do not make the whole of a population terrorists…or do you think that all Russians are murderers because of the actions of a few?”
Yes, and no respectively, but then I never said I did.
“So that’s alright then…we should trust a country that sends killers out and invades democratic countries, the state can send a killer and then have a sham trial to let him off…as I said change the law to allow extradition….he cannot be put on trial in Russia he has complete immunity from prosecution as he is a MP in Putin’s government party.”
We invaded Serbia. Can we not trust ourselves? You have already found the Russian state guilty. Where is the evidence? Those are their rules for MPs, but then we have had Gerry Adams as an MP. So you want the Russians to change their rules. I understand.
“The people behind her {Pat Finucane] murder should be tried and if convicted punished to the full extent of the law. Do you think the Russian murderers and war criminals should?”
The first part will never happen because the British state would never allow it. They were very touchy about collusion, and even took a senior detective (John Stalker) off a shoot to kill enquiry because he was due to charge senior RUC officers. You need to find out more about British actions in Ireland if you are concerned about dubious killings and equally dodgy judicial systems.
As for the second part, if an international court existed that was free from political influence, and would prosecute any and every country for its crimes then yes. Unfortunately that situation does not exist.
“No country is perfect (omitted since you failed to provide quotes for comments attributed to me) but we are better than Russia.”
I never argued Russia was better than us.
“They did [prosecute Muslims] and do so that is either ignorance or a lie”
No it was ambiguous. I did not say “No Muslim has been prosecuted” as you attributed to me. If I said “the British state fails to prosecute their own security forces for collusion” I might be referring to a number of cases where they didn’t prosecute despite good evidence (even though some security forces were prosecuted over the years • quite accurate in that case as it happens).
“remember that the republics in the Russian state are there because of invasion.”
Some things are better left untouched, such as the Basque Region, or anywhere that might spark ethnic tensions or nationalist ambitions. I don’t think civil wars are worth creating just because in the UK we can afford to offer independence to the SNP, based on the principal of the majority, without having such tensions to worry about. So my opinion is no different towards Spain or France, but you can keep hammering away.
“So where are your ‘experts’ who say it [NATO bombing of Serbia] was illegal??”
You can purchase it there.
“Since you seem to think that all NATO acts are de facto premeditated murder, then it goes without saying ALL deaths in Georgia, or Chechnya, are murders.”
No, but if Russia targeted civilian areas with cluster bombs dropped from a high altitude when it knew they were likely to be inaccurate from that height then I would call it murder. Maybe their pilots would have the balls to fly lower. I would hope so. I don’t care if pilots are going to get shot at. That’s their problem. Civilians should be the main concern • not pilots.
“See above. But you never condemn the hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their lives in Chechnya, or Georgia for that matter.”
I asked you to back up your claim that I had said Russians should be able to murder hundreds of thousand of people. You have not done so because I stated no such thing.
If Serbians had remained on the border with Kosovo ready to fight when NATO had entered they would have been pushed back as well. The Russians are posturing, but they had crossed into Georgia to push back the Georgian military. I agree that they should get out now, especially since the lack of police causes more problems for civilians with attacks and looting.
“if there is a MI5 assassination using poison darts you will provide us with proof wont you!!!!! Ivan3 | 14.08.08 – 12:12 am”
Indeed. There was another case of the wrong man being killed when MI5 tried to take out a Russian I believe, but if I’m right I find it, if I’m wrong then I suppose the murders of civilians in Northern Ireland will have to do. My point will be the same in either case. The killers are beyond the reach of the law.
John Bull:
“Indeed. There was another case of the wrong man being killed when MI5 tried to take out a Russian I believe, but if I’m right I find it”
Find it or retract the smear.
“if I’m wrong then I suppose the murders of civilians in Northern Ireland will have to do. My point will be the same in either case. The killers are beyond the reach of the law.”
Two things • one these are actions that even the most ardent believer regard as rogue elements, not government policy as the case with Russia. Two what about all the soldiers being tried for their actions, i.e., the Bloody Sunday Inquiry examining the British military actions in Northern Ireland. This shows that nobody, except those terrorists who made a deal with the UK as part of the Good Friday agreement is above the law. Or indeed the trials and convictions of UK military personal for their actions in Iraq.
What about Russia
As I said prove it or shut up
“one these are actions that even the most ardent believer regard as rogue elements”
Not true. Ask John Stalker. Why was he arrested and shunned by senior British police? If that happened in Moscow you would say it was ordered by government. Read about Norther Ireland before you come up with this nonsense.
Nobody has been tried for bloody sunday, despite the coroner describing the deaths as “sheer, unadulterated murder”. If that happened under Putin you would be telling me all about it.
Bully-boy
John Bull:
“Why you want references when you don’t care for these references is beyond me.”….So you don’t have any then
” In any case Google “GEORGIA “special forces” TV station” and anything I have quoted will come up in the first two pages.”
Third reference using your search criteria refers to the police raid http://www.freemedia.at/cms/ipi/statements_detail.html?ctxid=CH0055&docid=CMS1146741394054&year=2001 – 47k Reference six http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL0761596820071107
“TBILISI (Reuters) – Georgian opposition television station Imedi, which has led coverage of ongoing anti-government protests, said it had gone off the air after its building was stormed by special police forces wielding guns.”
The raid is to be found on you tube (http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL0761596820071107) in a clip entitled Georgia Police storm opposition TV station in Tbilisi.
Regardless they were acting in accordance to with the law passed by a democratically elected government. This is not about the murder of people of the illegal shutting down of media outlets that criticize the government as in Russia, such action is illegal under Russian law, and the murder of journalists is also illegal.
“I’ve already answered that in the previous reply. Why are you going round in circles?”….Yes or no, you don’t call for the murderers to be brought to justice, and those who order the murders.
“That is not justifying a murder it’s just a common sense statement that I would apply to myself, my family or anyone else.”….So saying do not criticize Russia or die. So you apply this to your family or friends… be dubious and I reserve the right to kill you? Really??
“do you agree that the atrocity (murder, rape, whatever) of a group do not make the whole of a population terrorists…or do you think that all Russians are murderers because of the actions of a few?”…Yes, and no respectively, but then I never said I did.”
So you agree that those Chechens who did not murder the innocent children in Beslam are not terrorists…if so stop calling them that
“We invaded Serbia. Can we not trust ourselves?”….Yes it was a legal action.
“You have already found the Russian state guilty.”….I’m not a judge it is up to a judge and jury to try them.
“Where is the evidence?”….Allow a fair and open trial to judge all the evidence.
“Those are their rules for MPs, but then we have had Gerry Adams as an MP.”…..Our MP’s are not immune to prosecution and he was not a member of the Government party that sent him to kill the innocent.
“So you want the Russians to change their rules. I understand.”…..About time.
“The first part will never happen because the British state would never allow it.”….What about all the other trials of British forces regarding murder and human rights abuse. But as I’ve said I have no problem with people being brought to account for their illegal acts…it seems you do when it concerns Russia…
“As for the second part, if an international court existed that was free from political influence, and would prosecute any and every country for its crimes then yes. Unfortunately that situation does not exist.”…..”They did [prosecute Muslims] and do so that is either ignorance or a lie”…No it was ambiguous. I did not say “No Muslim has been prosecuted” …
You actually said,….”I believe the Hague is a politically motivated court, which fails to prosecute Muslim butchers from the Balkans” http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/3116970980694454789/?a=23928#413454
Prove The Hague is not fair or free. It is an open court with observers present. It also deals with all sides, with Muslims not being immune as you stated previously
“I never argued Russia was better than us. “…..Just that the West is worse than Russia, same thing.
On Independence.
“Some things are better left untouched”…..When they want independence from Russia apparently
“such as the Basque Region, or anywhere that might spark ethnic tensions”…..Nations are mult-ethnic, multi-racial they are not some homogeneous mass.
” or nationalist ambitions.”….You support Putin an ultranationalist who has led his country into ever growing xenophobia. Any state that is part of another because they where invaded and are been persecuted, killed, raped, etc., should be independent if the want to…just because you where invaded does not mean you should just shut up and take it …or Russia would still be German. So you are talking garbage.
“So where are your ‘experts’ who say it [NATO bombing of Serbia] was illegal??”….Your only expert cited: http://www.amazon.com/Internatio…m/dp/ 041509304X
The book was published in 1993! Serbia was attacked in 1999. So you cannot give any reference to any expert then, just an out of print book. Serbia is mention once on page 55 the full quote is,..
‘In May of 1992, the Council ordered the imposition of economic sanctions on Serbia for acts of violence against Bosnia-Herzegovina.” And that is the only mention in the whole of the book you cite are expert testimony against NATO’s action. If you are going to give supporting evidence maybe you should read the book first!!! So where are your experts…as I said, just because you say it is true does not mean it is no matter how many times you lie. You agree that the UN resolution authorizes NATO’s action then, and that Russia and China agreed with it when they could have vetoed the resolution
“if Russia targeted civilian areas with cluster bombs dropped from a high altitude when it knew they were likely to be inaccurate from that height then I would call it murder.”….Prove that NATO did, what if Russia targeted civilians with normal bombs…that is murder too, don’t you agree??
“Maybe their pilots would have the balls to fly lower. I would hope so. I don’t care if pilots are going to get shot at.”….Do you have the balls to risk your life for another? Like I said previously NATO lost a lot of planes, and lives in the Gulf War using cluster bombs against military runways because they where low which they had to use the weapon. You have no proof that they where used at high/medium level. So prove it or shut up. So you don’t care for the lives of military on legal missions…not nice, then again that is another thing you share with Russians they don’t care about how many they kill either, and this includes their soldiers.
“I asked you to back up your claim that I had said Russians should be able to murder hundreds of thousand of people.”….Where have you said that the perpetrators of the genocide in Chechnya should be brought to justice? And that Russia should stop killing them
“If Serbians had remained on the border with Kosovo ready to fight when NATO had entered they would have been pushed back as well. “…..True but the NATO forces where acting legally with UN backing.
“The Russians are posturing”….There you go again being a mind reader, prove it.
“but they had crossed into Georgia to push back the Georgian military.”…..An illegal act to enter a sovereign state, even if you feel their invasion using S/O as an excuse was right, especially when you have signed a peace agreement.
“I agree that they should get out now,”…..Yes they should get out of Georgia
“especially since the lack of police causes more problems for civilians with attacks and looting.”…Like the looting being done by Russian forces. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxWSXsJwitQHhYrvd-DUbRfgQdEA and http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia.russia6 no doubt you want the perpetrators brought to justice.
Bully
“John Bull:
“”Not true. Ask John Stalker. Why was he arrested and shunned by senior British police? If that happened in Moscow you would say it was ordered by government.”
He was not arrested he was suspended temporally when his friend and criminal Kevin Taylor made false allegations against him. Two things
1) should a high ranking policemen have professional criminals as friends
2) When allegations are made against police you think they should not be suspended. . You think they are above the law then. And those other policemen should keep meeting with him socially when he was suspended.
The law should be fair and open so no meeting of policemen being investigated for criminal actions, even if they are false.
“Read about Norther Ireland before you come up with this nonsense.”
Going to give us a reference like before???? You yourself don’t seem to know a lot about it.
“Nobody has been tried for bloody sunday,
The Bloody Sunday Inquiry has not finished yet… when it is over then charges may be brought. In the West we wait for the due process of the law to be completed. Only in Russia do show trials happen
“coroner describing the deaths as “sheer, unadulterated murder”. If that happened under Putin you would be telling me all about it.”
In 1973, the Catholic coroner said this with the accusations that his religion, and the influence of the Catholic Church affected this decision not the current £400 million one which has much more time, access to records .,etc. hopefully the current inquiry will be free from all taints and justice can be done.
Where is the Russian investigation into Russian state violence then?
“So do you dispute my point that cluster bombs were used in the Gulf War and from that experience US forces knew they were prone to be inaccurate from medium and high altitude?”
Inaccurate cluster bombs,I have heard it all now.You really are a Bullshitter.Iraq’s mechanised divisions were chopped to pieces,it is glaringly obvious that the cluster bombs were used effectively.Coalition Aircraft did not have to fly at medium and high altitude in Gulf War I.The Iraqi airforce never, flew the triple A was neutralised rapidly.
Look,it is obvious you are winging it and have no knowledge of the subject whatsoever.Carry on you are providing me with great amusement observing the clusterfuck that is your thought processes.
very good point Peter, totally agree with you
“Inaccurate cluster bombs,I have heard it all now..” Peter | 14.08.08 – 11:42 am”
Yes, an increased chance of missing their target when dropped from high altitude. Do you dispute the point or not??? Or is modern warfare and “collateral damage” right up your street.
“Regardless they were acting in accordance to with the law passed by a democratically elected government.” And “illegal shutting down of media outlets that criticize the government as in Russia, Ivan3 | 14.08.08 – 3:33 am”
Where are the court orders to justify blocking access to Russian internet sites which the Georgians have been doing? I thought that was a Chinese thing.
“Yes or no, you don’t call for the murderers to be brought to justice, and those who order the murders.”
I’m not on here as an Amnesty international spokesman, but I think anyone should be brought to justice for murdering journalists, including NATO.
“So saying do not criticize Russia or die.” And “be dubious and I reserve the right to kill you?”
Provide quotes from me where I have said so.
“So you agree that those Chechens who did not murder the innocent children in Beslam are not terrorists…if so stop calling them that”
Don’t instruct me. I judge people on their actions. Where people deliberately target civilians. The US, UK, NATO, Turkey, Russia or anyone else • I will call them terrorists when I choose.
“Yes it [bombing of Serbia] was a legal action.”
Disputed by experts, of which you are not one.
“What about all the other trials of British forces regarding murder and human rights abuse”
In Northern Ireland. Name them, including those brought to trial for collusion, involvement in the murder of Pat Finucane, torture of suspects etc.
“You actually said,….’I believe the Hague is a politically motivated court, which fails to prosecute Muslim butchers from the Balkans’”
I know. I explained above, but you can go around in circles.
“Prove The Hague is not fair or free. It is an open court with observers present. It also deals with all sides, with Muslims not being immune as you stated previously”
Why aren’t Turkey in indicted for their human rights abuses against Kurds? Why are suspected war criminals from Kosovo released on bail when Serbs are not? Why are butchers from Bosnia not indicted? You give good reasons, and I’ll agree that it is a fair, and not a politically motivated court.
“Just that the West is worse than Russia, same thing.”
No, that the west is just as bad. Selling arms to butchers across the world, bombing journalists in Belgrade, the US like to torture people these days, and drop cluster bombs when they know they are likely to be inaccurate.
“just because you where invaded does not mean you should just shut up and take it”
So you support Kosovo being given back to the Serbs with Serbs having the right to return to their homes?
“The book was published in 1993! Serbia was attacked in 1999.”
Christine Gray has published many books with many additions and HAS argued that the attack on Serbia was illegal under international law. I don’t need to read Tony Benn’s diaries to know he is vehemently anti-war. You asked for an expert (not a particular book) who thought the war was illegal. I gave you one. You search her books if you are interested.
“Prove that NATO did, what if Russia targeted civilians with normal bombs…that is murder too, don’t you agree??”
If they did so from an altitude where they knew they were likely to be inaccurate with that particular weapon then yes. Now do you agree that NATO doing the same is murder?
“You have no proof that they where used at high/medium level. So prove it or shut up.”
This is / was common knowledge. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/1999/jul/28/balkans2
“Where have you said that the perpetrators of the genocide in Chechnya should be brought to justice?”
That is different to attributing comments to me that “Russians should be able to murder hundreds of thousand of people.” Now provide a quote.
“An illegal act to enter a sovereign state”
If it is good for the goose (Serbia) it’s good for the gander (Georgia).