Please use this thread for comments about the BBC’s current programming and activities. This post will remain at or near the top of the blog – scroll down for new topic-specific posts. N.B. This is not an invitation for general off-topic comments, rants or chit-chat. Thoughtful comments are encouraged. Comments may also be moderated. Any suggestions for stories that you might like covered would be appreciated! It’s your space, use it wisely.
General BBC-related comment thread!
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using their house for PAID group sex.
The horror! Ta very much. Actually, now the link is up I was still trying to grapple with the teleprompter-reader saying they were ‘paid for sex’. Looking at the pictures of the poor loves I was trying to figure out who the heck in their right minds would pay them. Now… all is clear…er.
Nothing like a good allegation.
Speaking of which, I did hear right on the murder though, to be fair, the backgrounds of the two women are actually only reported in ‘some papers’ as ‘being involved in prostitution’, but we are advised that the police deny this.
So that’s OK then. The BBC hasn’t said it, but shared others have, even though it’s denied by the only people who can know at the moment.
Still seems an odd thing to bring up then, as hardly a stout defence of their honour post mortem to correct unidentified rumours that may or may not be swirling in some quarters.
But then, maybe raising heresay from un-named others to add a denial, plus a bit of spice, is these days not unheard of.
If, as at the moment is possible, these poor young ladies do indeed turn out not to be anything like the construed ‘denial’ suggests, I’d love to be around if this reporter ends up in the same room as their families.
If the BBC were a commercial production company these questions would not concern me, but as a “tax” funded broadcaster….???
John Bosworth | 17.09.08 – 3:36 pm |
Excellent share, ta. As one who is finding aspects of their business competed with by the very entity, and its mates, I have to co-fund, I am a tad more than concerned, simply through selfish self-interest.
What amazes me is still how few others, despite surely hefty lobby access to the political parties, have managed to crank this creeping commercial anti-competitive practice higher up the agenda.
What next, one wonders?
The foolishness of Robert Peston on display:
Lloyds to buy HBOS
Peston is a Friend of Gordon, so much so that he’s his biographer. So Peston gets a little leak from Mr. Brown, so we can all pretend this wise move could only happen under the sure hand of Our Gordon.
Except…
HOBS-Lloyds as arranged by Gordon Brown
A couple of comments demonstrate where the BBC bias lies:
Robert Peston could soon find himself in a spot of bother over this morning’s supposed shenanigans • seen elsewhere on the blogosphere…
“What is more significant is the fact that at least one city law firm is in the early stages of rounding up plaintiffs among the fund community for an action relating to the price manipulation of HBOS shares this morning.”
At least he will have plenty of time to devote to the future ex-PM’s biography.
and
Peston’s post is probably criminal as it is market sensitive information and as such should not have been disclosed at all. to put an actual price on teh deal – twice – is luancy.
Does my TV Tax not provide the BBC with lawyers?
In other words, the BBC – once again – deliberately broke the rules in order to support Mr. Brown.
Peston has been doing updates all morning. At some point, he gave the green light to run (or wrote it himself, from the looks of things) a story on News Online.
HBOS confirms Lloyds merger talks
Peston is allowed to lie for Brown:
He added that the deal was negotiated at a very high level, with Prime Minister Gordon Brown telling Lloyds TSB chairman Sir Victor Blank that it would be helpful if Lloyds could end the uncertainty surrounding HBOS by buying it.
“It was not in the government’s interest for there to be the faintest risk that it would have another Northern Rock on its hands,” he added.
How professional and impartial is it for a close FOG to be the “has said” source for just how much Mr. Brown was responsible for this? Especially given that when Lloyds wanted to buy Northern Rock, Mr. Brown said no, that’s not a good idea.
We’re supposed to believe that Lloyds wasn’t interested in controlling more than 25% of the UK mortgage market by the end of the day, and only bit the bullet when Mr. Brown gave them a dose of common sense. What utter nonsense. More like Brown’s hand was forced, so the BBC has to cover for him. No integrity whatsoever.
Oh, and the BBC street-camera monkey managed to find the only employees of a newly bought-out company who are smiling and blissful, unworried about the inevitable massive redundancies that always happen in these situations. No, these vox popsters can only manage, “It’ll be fine.” Or, “Well, there’s no point in worrying about it, rilly.”
Perfect! Mr. Brown is a star.
John Bosworth | 17.09.08 – 3:36 pm
Why can’t the BBC bid for each programme made by Baby Cow on its merits?
It can…. And almost certainly will.
Producers inside the BBC go through a selection process from idea to final product, why not Coogan?
If any BBC network wants to buy anything from Baby Cow, it will apply the usual commissioning criteria.
How many producers, execs and commissioning editors end up working for the very companies they foster?
The buying decision is usually the preserve of the controller. It would be rare for a controller to go back into a production role, I suspect.
How many indies,now in bed with the BBC, have been set up by former BBC employees?
Most, probably.
What happened to the famous in-house productions..? In the future, does the BBC intend to buy programmes or make them?
A minimum of 50% and a maximum of 75% of production is in-house each year.
If the BBC were a commercial production company these questions would not concern me, but as a “tax” funded broadcaster….?
BBC Worldwide is not funded from the licence-fee. It is a commercial organization.
BBC Worldwide is not funded from the licence-fee. It is a commercial organization.
yqa | 17.09.08 – 4:44 pm
No it is funded by being given licence funded product to go & sell. Thereby depriving the licence payer of the income.
Peston was actually giving out advice to people the other day.
Is that really the job of a beeboid?
I thought they were there to report the news not make it?
That’s right. Worldwide would have nothing to sell if it were not for the TV tax.
Clearly some shows bring in more money that they cost to produce, such as Top Gear.
But shouldn’t we actually get a rebate instead?
will | 17.09.08 – 4:47 pm
it is funded by being given licence funded product to go & sell. Thereby depriving the licence payer of the income.
Nonsense on stilts.
The licence payer gets the benefit of the income as all profits are ploughed back into BBC programmes.
BBC Worldwide has a range of income streams • some are from selling BBC programmes. Others derive from quite different commercial activities • holding stakes in production companies, channels, merchandising companies, a travel guide publisher etc. etc.
Nonsense on stilts.
Here comes the old saying – It takes money to make money.
It makes profit by association. The BBC worldwide would not exist if it wasn’t for the BBC and the teletax.
Martin | 17.09.08 – 4:50 pm |
That’s right. Worldwide would have nothing to sell if it were not for the TV tax.
No, they’d still flog C4 crap, like they do on BBC America.
The thing is, there’s basically only one, very thin sheet of paper separating Auntie and her commercial child. In reality, the accounts are intertwined like a Gordion Knot. They feed off each other.
The more product the BBC gets from itself, the more profit there is. While domestically there may be a maximum on the percentage of in-house shows they can put on, internationally there is no limit. And that’s where the money is.
yqa The licence payer gets the benefit of the income as all profits are ploughed back into BBC programmes.
That is the profit after reductions for the cost of the extra bureaucracy, accountancy & legal staff etc dealing with the additional entity plus the costs incurred by the “commercial” staff who can indulge in extravagancies that cannot be challenged as “tax funded”.
“BBC in a new love-in with an old hate figure”
[Extract, from ‘Evening Standard’]:
“WHAT IS the BBC playing at? Back in 2004, during the height of the Hutton Report, mudslinging Alastair Campbell (pictured with BBC DG Mark Thompson) played a hand in the demise of both the director-general Greg Dyke and chairman Gavyn Davies during the Beeb’s darkest hour. Now the BBC can’t get enough of its old tormenter.
“Tony Blair’s former spin-doctor was recently given a Radio 4 slot to present a programme on the Belgian singer Jacques Brel, and was also a recent guest of Kirsty Wark’s on Newsnight despite telling staff there in 2005 to ‘f*** off and cover something important, you t**ts,’ after the show probed some controversial Labour election campaign posters.
“Now Campbell is being given yet more airtime to plug his first foray as a novelist. He will feature in a new BBC2 documentary about his mental breakdown that will be broadcast on the eve of the publication of his debut novel, All in the Mind, whose hero is a pyschiatrist.
“Campbell suffered from a breakdown in 1986 while working as a journalist: he later became political editor of the Mirror, before joining the former Prime Minister Tony Blair as his official spokesman.”
http://londonersdiary.standard.co.uk/2008/09/bbc-in-new-love.html
Rep Convention bounce broken, according to the latest Zogby Poll:
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1552
Putting Obama at 47% and McCain at 45%.
Nothing of it on the BBC.
http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=zogby&scope=all&tab=ns&recipe=all
“Peston’s hair is to dye for”
[Extract]:
“ROBERT Peston has always fancied himself as the thinking woman’s bit of crumpet. In a recent interview he described himself as ‘a sort of Lothario’ in his days before becoming BBC’s Business Editor. But has Peston been enhancing his appeal by tampering with his lustrous black barnet?
“His hair seems to have taken on a much darker hue in recent days. Peston has had more airtime than ever what with all the City doom and gloom stories, and his colleague Stephanie Flanders, the BBC’s Economics Editor, is currently on maternity leave so he has had to make up for her absence
http://londonersdiary.standard.co.uk/2008/09/pestons-hair-is.html
I posted erlier that it was Peston who stirred up the panic over Northern Rock. There was trouble there, they had expanded too fast and too riskily, but it could all have been sorted out, Lloyds were in secret discussions to take them over, a seal could have gone through.
Peston not only blew the story – he failed to advise viewers and listeners that all depositors of up to £35,000 were totally safe. And he kept filming outside a aprticular branch in a London suburb, trying to exaggerate the size of the queue of anxious customers. actually putting people in the original queue into panic. I saw it – I walk past that branch every day, the BBC were camped there like vultures.
On You and Yours today when HBOS was being discussed, the reporter said several times that depositors are entirely safe, said it would be irresponsibe for any discussion or reporting not to state this very clearly. Seemed like a swipe at Peston to me a recognition that Peston had behaved badly before.
Its a kind of economic treason to try to get kudos by revealing things that could lead to thousands of jobs. Or – if Northern Rock was what helped precipitate much wider financial concerns – the jobs of hundreds of thousands of people.
And what peston did last septemenr and was doing now is retailing stuff when it was still unclear. The BBC has a policy to defer rporting stuff until things are clear – to get the facts absolutly right before broadcasting.
BBC report:
“US drone kills five in Pakistan”
-It is only in the third paragraph that the BBC’s reporter, DILAWAR KHAN (nationality?), clarifies his headline:
“The missiles are reported to have struck a militant training camp.”
Note the give-away politics of the use of the word ‘MILITANT’ here.
BBC bias, bias, bias.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7621616.stm
YQA (Your Questions Answered?)
Its refreshing to see the BBC ( in the persona of “YQA”) entering into the debate and answering questions about their financial dealings. Remember we blog here (most of us) because we care about British broadcasting, or we wouldn’t bother.
Thanks for the replies, but please be assured that someone is scrutinizing you – and should be – within the BBC, in the public arena and even at the Groucho club.
gunnar
The RCP AVERAGES of all the polls of the last few days shows nothing in it – but McCain has come from behind, the race is now even. he has a slight edge on numbers of electoral college seats – 222 versus 217. But it is allto play for.
THAT sort of general conclusion is certainly stuff the BBC should be reporting. But they have probably never heard of RCP, they just read the Washington Post, New Yprk Times and the scurrilous Atlantic and daily Kis. Plus the hotline to democratic HQ and the Obama campaigm It is obvious to a blind man that that is where Matt Frei and Justin Webb draw their themes.
Any proper news serice would sack or demote them for total lack of originality, failure to track new stories – and smarmy condscension.
Re- above: 5:52 pm, on PAKISTAN.
The BBC’s ‘South Asia correspondents could with reading this:
“Pakistan is the problem” (Christopher Hitchens)
“Recent accounts of murderous violence in the capital cities of two of our allies, India and Afghanistan, make it appear overwhelmingly probable that the bombs were not the work of local or homegrown “insurgents” but were orchestrated by agents of the Pakistani ISI. This is a fantastically unacceptable state of affairs, which needs to be given its right name of state-sponsored terrorism. Meanwhile, and on Pakistani soil and under the very noses of its army and the ISI, the city of Quetta and the so-called Federally Administered Tribal Areas are becoming the incubating ground of a reorganized and protected al-Qaida. Sen. Barack Obama has, if anything, been the more militant of the two presidential candidates in stressing the danger here and the need to act without too much sentiment about our so-called Islamabad ally.”
http://www.slate.com/id/2200134/
Peter:
“… the lunchtime news …First up is some ‘sex scandal’ that has got all sorts of knickers in a twist. … I’m pretty sure that somehow, in one sentence the ‘reporter’ managed to get in the suggestion that lack of info thus far meant the victims were probably prostitutes, then that the police had denied this.”
It’s old news. They are an elderly Wolverhampton couple who are both Tory councillors in Wolverhampton and are also part-time prostitutes. It was all in the Daily Miror about 10 days ago. href=”http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2008/09/07/exclusive-tory-councillors-run-a-brothel-at-their-house-115875-20727743/”>TORY BROTHEL
That link didn’t come out quite as I intended. I’ll try again.
TORY BROTHEL
JohnA | 17.09.08 – 5:25 pm |
The BBC has a policy to defer rporting stuff
until things are clear – to get the facts absolutely right before broadcasting.
Well, technically, they did get the fact of the buyout right. The problem is that they allowed Peston to do a bit of PR for his buddy and tell a little white lie about Mr. Brown’s involvement in the deal.
Of course this combined with the Fed’s quasi-takeover of AIG will probably cause sterling to rise a bit against the dollar (last week it was almost as low as it was five years ago), and Mr. Brown’s genius will be hailed throughout Broadcasting House.
I wonder who will be on the Queen’s List next year?
“…The licence payer gets the benefit of the income as all profits are ploughed back into BBC programmes…”
Oh really. So what ‘quality’ programmes are those then?
Like the recent episode of Horizon? Utter shite
Eastenders? Wank
BBC news output. Shit
Endless cooking and selling shite in my atic stuff? I think not.
Please point out where this quality programming is.
Why is it that the BBC can come out with throwaway phrases without actually looking into what they mean?
One perfect example – Peter Allen on radio 5 live saying that there are less cars on the road in Germany and France than in Britain. But he doesn’t ask WHY?
Simple really:
” Though UK operators achieve the lowest operating costs per vehicle km, they charge the highest fares in Europe. A typical public transport trip by any mode in Britain costs 15% more than in Germany, 60% more than in France and nearly three times as much as in the Netherlands”
http://www.cfit.gov.uk/docs/2001/ebp/ebp/key/02.htm
Its not rocket science – if you have better and cheaper public transport people will use it.
The second west midlands story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7618088.stm
about a double murder caught my interest simply because we were told that two women had been murdered and a man had been arrested at Dover trying to flee the country. Are British rules about prejudicing trials etc so draconian that all the public can be told about who these people are is their sex and that the man arrested is 28?
After googling around I came across:
“bet the bloke picked up for the murders is bloody foreign, if he is and he is found guilty of murder, send him to Iran where they think the women came from.” on a comment thread at:
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=73449
It’s not just the BBC – the police and everyone else seem to keep remarkably quiet about the background to so many crimes that time and again you find yourself asking ‘I wonder what they’re withholding?’Presumably the belief is that the public are so immature that they will immediately leap to stereotyping and prejudiced conclusions if the people involved belong to one of a select group of minorities (not all minorities, by any means).
Lurker in a Burqua:
Every Cloud…………!
The good news is that Lehman Brothers were heavily into climate change, lauding the business opportunities which were opening up.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com…- revisited.html
Lurker in a Burqua | 16.09.08 – 12:29 pm | #
As much as I love capitalism, that really has made my day…class. The smoke and mirrors of climate change is equivalent to the derivative products these companies have crashed and burned on!
Oh how reality comes and bites people on the arse! 😉
Martin:
Sadly a show doesn’t have to be a “quality programme” to make money. The BBC can derive a bigger profit from filming a house being decorated (again and again and again) than from a decent drama. Here in the US there’s a whole channel devoted to decoration, re-decoration and re-re-decoration. But at least it’s not funded by licence payers.
By the way, does anyone know the audience figures for BBC America?
in case you missed it – guido has some posts on the bbc influencing the market today regarding HBOS
http://www.order-order.com/2008/09/who-told-peston.html
http://www.order-order.com/2008/09/hbos-collapses-38.html
This isn’t a B-BBC issue, but I wonder if someone might be able to help me. I recall that many times I have seen B-BBC users use a website that allows you to search archived and cached webpages. Obviously there are ones that do this over time, but there is one which has allowed us to find differences in stories that are hours and days old. Therefore, can anyone tell me what it’s called?
Thanks.
“Gordon BrownStuff | 17.09.08 – 7:01 pm ”
lets not forget the pioneers of such derivatives – namely weather derivatives.
one Enron. remember them?
David | 17.09.08 – 7:45 pm
http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/
“Curse of the shirt: predicting crunch victims”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7618852.stm
“Man Utd’s new strip”
http://donalblaney.blogspot.com/
there’s a lot of angry traders today – pissed off with the BBC revealing the per share price that lloyds might offer hbos.
plus on top on that dealing in shares in lloyds tsb and hbos was NOT suspended.
which made it prime territory for hedge fund short sellers who made an absolute f**king killing today.
all caused by the BBC. and their “sources” in the government.
archduke | 17.09.08 – 7:53 pm |
all caused by the BBC. and their “sources” in the government.
It’s called BBC breaking the rules to help Mr. Brown (and, by extension, Labour). Peston should not be allowed to have his position so long as he is deep in with Gordon. They did the scoop both to be first to the post (like any good journo, right?), and also to spin it in favor of Brown.
Hell, Mr. Brown’s people probably leaked it themselves once they learned that he gave the nod that the Competition Commission wouldn’t hassle the deal. I bet that’s the only reason he was even in the loop. Yet here the BBC is not only screwing up trading for the day, but saying it was all Mr. Brown’s idea! Good one, Peston.
all caused by the BBC. and their “sources” in the government.
archduke | 17.09.08 – 7:53 pm | #
Hi archduke,
Your analysis must be a well kept secret. I thought I could read up more on it on the Financial Times website, but they do not cover it. Guess they must be part of the conspiracy.
http://search.ft.com/search?sortBy=gadatearticle&queryText=bbc&y=4&aje=true&x=10
gunnar | 17.09.08 – 8:13 pm
it was reported by Peston on the BBC first.
the regular media just reported on what Peston had said.
references for gunnar
http://www.order-order.com/2008/09/who-told-peston.html
http://www.order-order.com/2008/09/hbos-collapses-38.html
he obviously has not been following the HBOS story today.
turns out , at the end of the day, in my Evening Standard that surprise-surprise – Gordon Brown was deeply involved in getting Lloyds to buy out HBOS.
bbc “sources” = not Lloyds. nah – it was Gordon Brown…
well done bronwstuff. fuck up an already fucked off market.
i’m off down to HBOS tommorow. i’m going to do my own , private , deleveraging – by withdrawing all my savings there in cash.
For Labour government, greenies and BBC:
“Global Warming – the best value option is ‘do nothing’, says official Aussie report”
http://climatescience.blogspot.com/2008/09/gw-best-value-option-is-do-nothing-says.html
“But even with their high ability to peek into the future, they couldn’t predict their demise one year ahead though there were many people that had been warning about this present crash for years. But Lehman Bros were recommending investments 30, 50, 100 years ahead. Some days, reality imitates fiction. Who was Lehman Bros’ ‘scientific’ adviser on climate? You guessed it, James Hansen, the same guy that wants to drive the world to bankruptcy as he did with Lehman’s Bros. ”
http://icecap.us/index.php/go/political-climate
Somehow it makes the “bad” news seem a lot better.
maybe what we’re seeing is all the champagne socialists getting their market-driven come uppance?
bugger all money for McCain from the City , but a ton of cash for Obama.
Hi JohnA,
I guess you misunderstood the relevance of pointing to the Zogby Poll.
Here a repeat from David Vance’s post from 20th August with slight alterations.
WHEN BAD NEWS IS NO NEWS. I was looking at the BBC’s coverage of the US Presidential race and was ..ahem..surprised to see no coverage of the latest poll in the States giving Obama a 2 point lead over the Chosen One. Happily, the BBC’s poll still shows McCain still in the lead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/7360265.stm
This was triggered by a Zogby Poll, that actually was reported in a BBC article prior David writing his post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7573424.stm
You can go through the log for the evidence.
Now, Zogby puts Obama ahead and no word from David. I wonder why?
Disclaimer: I am no supporter of Obama or McCain. Just interested giving this biased blog some well-deserved balance.
Hi archduke,
Wouldn’t you think the FT would report this if they believed this to be true? Or are they in on it?
Hi Archduke,
I need a bit of advice and you’ve always struck me as a rather clued up individual…
I’ve got a bit of cash being held with Interactive Investor (owned by HBOS). It is in my ISA account but hasn’t been invested in stocks/shares/etc. I’d like to transfer it into my Barclays current account, but I’m getting this message:
“Unfortunately this service is unavailable at the moment.
Please try again later.
We apologise for any inconvenience caused.”
Is it brown trousers time? Will my money be guaranteed by HMG (it is less than £30K)?
Thanks,
not sure about ISAs – as there might be a clause that prevents you from withdrawing the money over the counter.
check the small print of your ISA agreement. but if i were you , i’d be considering withdrawing my position in HBOS and moving it into something safer. for now.
keep the account open until the crunch has finished. leave a pound in there to keep your position open.
good one to bank with is Nationwide. not on the stock market, and not exposed to subprime.
gunnar
I agree that single US polls should not be news.
My point is somewhat separate. There has been a huge pullback by McCain. All the polls were sharply against him before.
Now, looking at the overall position, things are broadly even nationwide. And lots of states that were in the bag for Obama are now marginal or even tending to McCain.
Heck, Obama’s lead in ultra-Dem New York State has dropped 12 points, for examnmple. Just outide the margin of error.
All this is in spite of Bush getting a 30% or so approval rating, Anerica tired of the wars, the financial sector in deep trouble, etc etc. The real news story is – why isn’t Obama coasting home to victory ?
All of this polling data is available from a single blogsite – RealClearPolitics.com – which records all polls, gives links to them, and averages them nationwide and state-by-state. Plus converts current figures into electoral seats.
The BBC is too damn idle to look at this broad picture – or read eminent journalists like Michael Barone who gives unjaundiced commentary on polls.
All Frei and Webb et al is read the opeds in WaPo, NYT, LA Times -and Daily Kos, HuffPo and the execrable blog at Atlantic by Andrew Sullivan. You can see the direct tracking between what these specific opinonsources say and the themes of BBC reporting.
I call that slipshof journalism, , and biased. I would sack the lot of thwm, get some better journalists on bard.
The current factor skewing their view is Palin – who has caused the large polling shift towards McCain, following Obama’s rejection of Hillary as running mate.
They either despise or scorn Palin, her values, her background, her roots. Instead of trying to report FACTUALLY on the resaonance Palin has ben having, or even opinionate on her actual track record, they demean themselbves and the BBC by snotty-nosed superciliousness. Total lack of balance, day in and day out.
There is a wider spread of US election news posted right here on this blog – eg polling – and allowing our admitted bias, than the BBC has been nanaging across its entire US output.
I will rejoice when the plug is pulled on the BBC, it is an insult to its own memory, and in direct contravention of its statutory duty.
Others may feel a bit more strongly than me, however.
and secondly – that 35k guarantee? well, all i will say is “since when have you trusted the government?”
“Grimer | 17.09.08 – 9:21 pm ”
barclays are just as fucked as well. up to their necks in it.
go safe. and safe is any building society that hasnt been dealing in sub-prime or buy to let.
if you arent sure of that, either keep the cash, or buy gold.
“JohnA | 17.09.08 – 9:28 pm ”
the bbc never reports that Democrat controlled Congress has even lower approval ratings than Bush.
around the 12 per cent mark last time i checked.
kind of puts it in perspective doesnt it?
I thought my overdraft was looking safe being transferred from the Halifax – but the deal with Lloyds is not yet final.
Time for a drink, methink.
…….Cheers, gunnar, let us continue to agree to disagree.
(Where is John Reith when we need him ?)
I paid the money in from Barclays, so the only option is export the money back to Barclays. I have a Nationwide Savings account which is where the money would eventually end up.
I’m just concerned that I can’t make a payment from Interactive Investor (HBOS) at the moment. Have they frozen the accounts?