Interesting BBC treatment of the Spanish past. On the one hand, in this programme “The Art of Spain” the BBC proclaims the glorious Islamic rule that Spain enjoyed and how much we owe to that missed Muslim golden age. Then, on the other hand in this programme “The Dark Heart” we learn of the evils of Catholic Spain. Meme is simple; Islam = Good. Christian = bad.
SPAIN’S GOLDEN PAST
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I don’t think there is any deliberate intention to push Islam and do down Christianity. It’s just the pseudo-intellectual person’s contrary stance to conventional, more widely held opinions, usually expressed in order to demonstrate cleverness. Supposedly clever, allegedly liberal people are always ready to tell us why we have got the wrong end of the stick about all sorts of things – the Soviet Union, Fidel’s Cuba, comprehensive schools, climate apocalypse, the USA, etc etc.
The BBC is full of people who are keen to show us just how perceptive and analytical they can be, and as long as they get money thrown at them they’ll continue with their dismal self-indulgence.
A lot of truth in what you say I’m sure. But if someone does this long enough they become pathological and seek to embrace any evil cause that panders to their warped sense of ‘intellectual superiority’. As they’re also making sure they’ll be ‘the last one to be eaten by the alligator’, that’s an added bonus for them.
In the blurb, it is even worse than merely dark: dark and savage, according to AlBeeb.
“He journeys to the country’s scorched centre to explore Spanish art of the 16th and 17th centuries. From the mystical world of El Greco to the tender genius of Velazquez, this was a moment so extraordinary it became known as the Golden Age. But beneath the glittering surface was a dark and savage heart.”
So mystical and tender genius is trivial and insignificant – surface glitter only. Surely contradictory, even for the BBC. But then, we know that the BBC uses words as mere playthings. We know not to expect consistency or intellectual grasp. Can we expect similar Al Beeb trashing of golden ages of other countries, civilisations and their art? Like, er…
Did the BBC mention the expulsion of Sephardic Jews from Iberia by Christians and that the Ottoman Empire gave the Jews sanctuary ?
Difficult one for Beeboids to get their little minds around.
But then, history does not always follow the BBC narrative.
What’s on your mind…
DP111,
Probably too much to post on this site !
The BBC simple equation is ” Christians+Jews = bad, muslims=good “.
But , if anyone studies the history, it is not so simple.
This Ottoman Empire? The Islamic empire which tried to take over Vienna (and Western Europe) in 1683?:
“Turning the Ottoman tide – John III Sobieski at Vienna, 1683”
http://www.historynet.com/turning-the-ottoman-tide-john-iii-sobieski-at-vienna-1683.htm
George R,
Is that the same Ottoman Empire which guaranteed all subjects freedom of religion and had Christians and Jews in the highest levels of business , the professions and government ? Or are you talking about the one in your own mind. Study the history and learn.
George R
I would be interested on your views on the “Rose Garden” decree in 1839 at the start of the “Tanzimat” era in the Ottoman Empire .
But, I suspect you haven’t a clue what I am talking about !
Grant,
You have fallen into the trap of making ad hominem insults about individuals, and not accepting criticism of your beloved Islamic Ottoman Empire.
George R,
Can you answer my question about the “Rose Garden” decree ? If not , maybe you can refer it to your Guru Fitzgerald.
But I doubt if he knows about it. My attack on him is not “ad hominem” . It is his ignorance and bigotry which I abhor, leaving aside his boring verbosity.
The Ottoman Empire is not “my beloved” . I see it as it was, good and bad and it wasn’t all bad. But then I have studied the subject.
You are talking about the wonders of the Islamic Ottoman Empire, and you are still defending your ad hominem insult (the putative victim decides whether it was an ad hominem insult, not the perpetrator) of 22:12 tonight, on a thread supposedly about the BBC and its false history of Islam in Spain!
The is the same Ottomam Empire whose military attack on Vienna (and Western Europe) was stopped in 1683.
The same Ottoman Empire which joined forces with Germany in a Jihad against Britain and its allies in the First World War.
“At the beginning of November 1914, the Ottoman Empire, the world’s greatest independent Islamic power, abandoned its ambivalent neutrality towards the warring parties, and became a belligerent in the conflict, with the sultan declaring a military jihad (holy war) against France, Russia and Great Britain.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_01.shtml
Rose Garden Decree ?
I have to agree with Grant that I find George R’s constant plugging of Fitzgerald and his web site, and often not much else, somewhat tiresome.
Bio,
You are more polite than me !
My argument with Fitzgerald is that he is a pseudo-historian. His errors of omission and commission are legion. This approach does not serve the cause. I am as frightened as anyone of the threat from Islam, but Fitzgerald puts twists history to suit his personal political agenda. This just plays into the hands of our enemies.
I remember reading a piece of his where he was comparing “Kemalism”, whatever that is, with ” Ba’aism”, whatever that is, as if they were political ideologies. Laughable really.
Anyway, this is not the forum to go into detail. Maybe leave it here.
Also worried about George R’s reliance on a handful of sources. But, must stop here !
“puts twists to history ” oops !
The BBC deliberately censors the whole analysis of the history of Islam in Spain:
“The Myth of the Golden Age of Tolerance in Medieval Muslim Spain”
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm?frm=4205&sec_id=4205
Of course, the BBC has already given over a full BBC 2 TV series to Muslim Rageh Omaar, now of BBC’s chums at the Islamic TV channel, Al Jazeera. And the British people have been forced to finance many more BBC TV series propagandising a false history of Islam in Spain.
A European analysis of Islamic colonialism, never put by BBC:
Fjordman: “Europeans as victims of Islamic Colonialism”
http://sheikyermami.com/fjordman-europeans-as-victims-of-islamic-colonialism/
And, a reprise:
Hugh Fitzgerald:
“Fitzgerald: The New York Times, and That Business At the Cathedral In Cordoba”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/fitzgerald-the-new-york-times-and-that-business-at-the-cathedral-in-cordoba.html#more
The Alhambra at Granada is held out to be sublime Islamic architecture.
I found it lacking in any grandeur, just a smallish castle plus some fiddly internal stonework in the palaces.
Nothing like the grandeur of contemporary architecture in Portugal such as Alcobaca cathedral or the Jeronimos monastery, or Batalha.
Let alone the standards reached here in the UK – eg Salisbury and the other Norman cathedrals, the Tower of London and the Welsh fortresses. Or medieval Pisa or Florence or Venice. Or Byzantine Constantinople.
It is ludicrous even to amateurs like me for the BBC to keep pushing this Islamic art tosh at us.
Architecture and the crafts are always pushed to the forefront by cultural relatavists like the BBC . Don’t mention music, painting and sculpture. Islam seems to have a problem with these.
Mind you Sinan was a great architect ! However, I agree the BBC’s line is ” Islamic art good, Western art bad ” . Unless it is modern crap, of course.
Sinan was nothing like as clever as the originator of the magnificent Hagia Sofia – built many hundreds of years before Sinan’s time.
A matter of taste or ” de gustibus non disputandam”
To be fair to the BBC (hard I know but bear with me), the programme identified quite fairly the dark heart of 15th/16th century Christian Spain. To state that Philip II was a religious nutter is not controversial: he was. To state that Spain at the time was in the grip of religious mania is also not controversial: the Moslems had been defeated, the Jews expelled and Philip’s authoritarian Catholicism Triumphant ruled. Spain achieved great art then despite Philip and despite Philip’s brand of Chritianity not because of it. That El Greco was thrown out of Royal service and, after one commission, was excluded from doing any more for the Cathedral of Toledo are facts of history. The reason he was excluded was that he refused to follow the King’s strictures on how to portray religious themes. An analogy to El Greco’s position would be that of a BBC environment correspondent who insisted on reporting that there is a valid sceptical view of the AGW religion.
I don’t believe that the BBC was saying Christianity=bad, Islam=good in the programme I saw last night. I would go further and say that, given the little I know of Catholic Spain of that period, living in the Umma (or, preferably, Protestant England) would have been a relief. Islam might be overhyped generally by the BBC but I don’t think that the Catholic Spain of that period can be viewed as a credit to Christianity.
Umbongo,
Very wise comments !
That may be true – but Christianity moved on it did not stay in the middle ages.
A lot to what you say I’m sure, but it maybe lacks perspective. The acheivement of ‘los reyes catolícos’ (Phillip and his Queen Isabel, if memory serves) in finally expelling the Muslim invader from Spain was a phenomenal one. What followed wasn’t of course. The Inquisition. One reason Jews were forced to convert is that they had collaborated with the Muslim occupiers. One reason for this is how appallingly Jews were treated in Christian Spain. What we must then remember to get things in proper context and perspective is the enormous debt Europe owes to Spain for not falling under the Moslem yoke in invasion from the East. Twice Spain was the only or among very few countries who answered the Pope’s call to arms to resist Muslim invasion from the East. I believe the sea battle of Lepanto was the critical turning point in finally turning back the Muslim tide of trying to conquer Christendom. One Cervantes was a shipman who fought in that momentous battle.
As regards to the underlying message of the programme though, I can’t say, I ddidn’t see it.
There was a relatively brief period of genuine Islamic tolerance in Spain. And a relatively brief period of utter Catholic intolerance.
Taking the longer view, however, the Islamic inheritance is century upon century of Mediterranean piracy, killings and enslavement. Which the BBC never portrays.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=granada+massacre
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=cordoba+massacre
For BBC. a history lesson on Islam, Christianity and Spain:
“What really happened in 1492”
(by Hugh Fitzgerald)
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/01/fitzgerald-what-really-happened-in-1492.html
George R,
I think you rely too much on Fitzgerald whose knowledge of history is , at the best, shaky, and he rarely gives secondary, let alone, primary sources.
May I suggest a starter reading list for you by serious academic historians ?
1. ” History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey ” Stanford J. Shaw.
2. “An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire ” Faroquhi , McGowan, Quataert and Pamuk
You may be surprised at what you find !
But,at least you will have more than one source of information.
I know you have a long standing connection with Turkey, and that you hope that the Islamising tendency in Turkey under Erdogan can be stopped.I am less optimistic than you about stopping the re-Islamisation of Turkey, but in any case we apparently agree that Turkey should not be allowed into the E.U.
On Spain, I am aware of the BBC’s political agenda of only putting out Islamic versions of the history of Spain (by Omaar, et al). I cite three analyses which are critical of such Islamic accounts – by Fitzgerald, Berdichevsky and by ‘Fjiordman’.
George R
Many thanks with engaging with me on this.
I read your posts with interest. Our hearts are in the same place. It is maybe a question of methods and how to deal with the threat of Islamic extremists. The Western politicians will do nothing, they are a waste of time.
I know from personal experience that there are moderate muslims who hate the extremists, but are in fear.
We have to find a way of dividing their loyalties. Not easy.
I have lived in muslim countries, my wife is a muslim and her family blessed our marriage in the full knowledge that I am an atheist.
There is hope, don’t despair, appeasement is not the answer. If we stand up for our beliefs in freedom and democracy , we can win the majority over.
If the Muzzies were so smart, how come they didn’t discover America?
I can’t help wondering whether,at the time, people living in Philippine Spain might have believed themselves to be living in a country superior to that of, say, Italy with its constant wars, or the pirate states of the Mahgreb? That their American empire was seen as a mark of God’s favour?
Anti-Catholic Spanish sentiment is of course as traditionally English as cricket, as evidenced by the Black Legend. It’s probably the only bit of the English cultural inheritance that Beeboids subscribe to.
Rueful Red: Anti-Catholic Spanish sentiment is of course as traditionally English as cricket, as evidenced by the Black Legend.
================================
Correct, Rueful Red. He was of course the enemy of Protestant England.
Naturally the Beeboids hate Spain as the old enemy and find it perfectly natural to demonise it, whether it is the art, the Catholicism or the history. This fits perfectly with its general anti-Christian stance as well as its more particular antipathy to Catholicism. And as the people there are not generally black’n’asian, well, the Beeb feels it has carte blanche and no need to rein in its venom or prejudice.
Where the additional bias of the BBC comes into it is this: I am still trying to imagine the Beeb putting out a programme blurb telling us in the sort of language used here, of the dark and savage heart of say, somewhere in Africa (other than the old apartheid South Africa, of course), or any part of “Asia” (meaning South Asia), or Arabia or the Caribbean, e.g. Jamaica or…or….
Sharia law, courts likely on 2010 ballot
<b>EDMOND–State lawmakers say it’s a pre-emptive strike against Sharia law, needed to prevent here what has happened in the United Kingdom.</b>
An Islamic leader says it’s another example of a rising tide of anti-Islamic bigotry in America.
State Question 755, which likely will be on the ballot in November, would make in-state courts rely on federal and state laws when deciding cases and forbid courts from using international law or Sharia law when making rulings.
The proposal, which has an Edmond connection, would amend Article 7, Section 1 of the Oklahoma Constitution, and stems from House Joint Resolution 1056, dubbed the “Save Our State” amendment, passed during the just-finished legislative session.
State Rep. Lewis Moore, R-Edmond, a co-author of HJR 1056, said he wanted to express his support very early for the legislation, which is needed because of the “onslaught” coming Oklahoma’s way.
“I don’t think we should accept or encourage Sharia law in any way, shape or form,” Moore said.
State Rep. Rex Duncan, R-Sand Springs, primary author of HJR 1056, said Oklahoma is the first state to pass such legislation and he hopes other states will follow.
Duncan, an attorney who chairs the House Judiciary Committee, said the amendment is needed because judges in other states and on the federal bench have increasingly cited international law in their decisions. He said he feels that action is inappropriate in a sovereign state.
<b>Duncan said Sharia law is entrenched in the United Kingdom.</b>
<b>”It is a cancer upon the survivability of the UK,” Duncan said. “SQ 755 will constitute a pre-emptive strike against Sharia law coming to Oklahoma.”</b>
http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/016713.html
This is what Americans are beginning to think of Britain ie survivability as Britain as we know it. This is the size of the catastrophe that the Westminster elite have inflicted on Britain.
NB
I don’t remember posting multiple “Whats on your mind..”.
Umbongo
I don’t think you would have held that view if you had been a Catholic living under Elizabeth I! But of course the BBC will always be happy to dwell on the iniquities of 16th century Catholic Spain (some real, but an awful lot exaggerated) while keeping their fiefs in ignorance of the appalling things that happened here at that time.
Things that happened here indeed! It’s not as if we didn’t have religious division and persecution in England / GB; religious strife, civil wars, Bishops’ Wars…you name it, we had it.
Millie,
Well said !
Umbongo,
The BBC hate catholics except for the IRA
In the interests of peace, deleted !
Several hundred Catholics were judicially murdered in England between 1559 and 1681, and thousands more were taxed punitively for their beliefs. They were excluded from the professions and public life until 1829.
Funny how the Beeb’s never to my knowledge made a programme about this – Catholics were a persecuted minority it chooses to ignore.
At it again, eh?
http://expatyank.wordpress.com/2009/01/07/the-bbc-reminds-us-faith-leads-to-learningand-youll-never-guess-which-faith-that-is/
They never quit.
They never will – who was Newton anyway? Lets try and rubbish all his works. This tactic by the BBC is straight from the Russian Marxists – who spread the word that the steam locamotive was not invented in Britain but by some Russian paesant, likewise the light bulb etc etc ad naseum.
Nice piece Robert