Interesting that the ‘debate’ today had an audience that was markedly, to my ear, less loud in its appreciation of Corbyn. You would probably be suspicious that they were picked using a different criteria to the last one…a tweaked model of selection…which might indicate there was a problem[ I see the Tories made a complaint to the BBC….did it have an effect….if so how and why? Will the BBC admit to a problem? LOL]. Comres assured us the last one was merely a noisy mob of Corbyn supporters outshouting the silent Tories rather than an unbalanced audience….but as they admitted that the format meant, whatever the scientific balance intended, that it was dominated by people opposed to the government this meant it was not in fact representative or fair in the studio.
Tonight May gave the usual stolid performance only really facing a hard question on nurses’ pay…Dimbleby helpfully suggesting nurses were getting poorer and being made to go to food banks and asking if May could sleep at night….he also directed May as to what she could talk about in her answers and told her how long she could have to answer.
Corbyn on the other hand came across as highly untrustworthy and evasive…as normal. He is a clown who makes cheap jokes and smartarse remarks,..such as he appeared in a debate and May didn’t….but that debate was not a debate, it was not informative, it was not time well spent…it was merely showboating….as Corbyn’s remark illustrates…it was all about turning up rather than actually saying anything useful. Tonight though was an act that he couldn’t pull off, he didn’t come across naturally as he shouted his way through the questions presumably thinking this was strong and authoritative rather than a sign of a massive bluff. He still tries to avoid saying anything useful other than soundgood soundbites as he dodged the nuclear weapons question and in the end was left standing struck silent refusing to answer. Dimbleby did press him on this question but he was allowed to slip away as with anti-semitism and the IRA.
More egregiously he was allowed to escape proper scrutiny on his economic policies and on the Single Market. Dimbleby asked him what he meant by ‘Brexit’ but he was able to shrug that off by repeating his mantra that he would be looking for tariff free trade….we all know by that he means to stay in the Single Market and thus will have to keep freedom of movement…but Dimbleby didn’t challenge him on that very critical point…surely one if the major ones of the election.
Corbyn not right that richest are doing best and poorest worst – since Cameron came to power, the opposite has been true. pic.twitter.com/iipekJh3AK
— Fraser Nelson (@FraserNelson) June 2, 2017
Corbyn was also allowed to make what are obviously false statements about the rich getting richer and the rest being left behind….not to mention the poorest not going to university due to tuition fees….we know for a fact that there has never been a time when there have been more students from poorer backgrounds than now…due to the availability of loans for tuition fees….they have not stopped students from going to university, the opposite in fact.
As for taxes, millions have been taken out of tax in the last 7 years as the allowance has been raised and the rich have in fact been made to pay a far higher share of the tax take than anyone else, not only that but interest rates, and thus mortgages and loans to business, have been at record lows for years and inflation has been unusually low as well….OPEC doing us all a favour by keeping fuel and thus prices all round low. So wages in cash terms may not have risen hugely on the face of it but spending power has been increased by other means as costs have been lowered…and people kept in jobs by agreeing to lower wages rather than having been sacked as in other recessions.
Corbyn was allowed to get away with that very simple picture of what has happened and treated us to the usual platitudes about equality, social justice, peace and negotiations…anyone who basically shouts his way through such a session as he did just doesn’t seem trustworthy…and his cheap clowning such as the dig at May for not being at the debate or as the programme finished shouting out that he had so much more to say said it all for me. No one in Brussels will take him seriously especially as they know he is intent on staying in the EU…he has already surrendered one issue…on the status of EU citizens already in the UK whilst the EU has refused to say the same for Brits abroad.
This format is certainly a lot better than the circus of the last debate with all the leaders squabbling and point scoring. [Odd that the SNP deputy should criticise May for not being there whilst no sign of Sturgeon…he claims he is leader in Westminster…not a credible getout methinks].
However even tonight’s format is not perfect in that it doesn’t allow for extended questioning on one subject to any great degree, having to move on inexorably so that as many people as possible get to ask a question. Perhaps we should have a written exam for the prospective PMs in which they set out in detail not just what they want us to hear as in the manifestos but the answers to questions that the public want to hear.
I note George Eaton at the New Statesman is silent on Twitter this time….have the Corbynistas got to him?
I thought that there used to be exit polls at such times as these “debates”. No figures from the BBC on both occasions this week. So can only assume that the Tories won them both. Had Corbyn won-we`d not be hearing the end of it.
Reckon we`re back to a 50-100 majority for May, but her complacency and U-turns on that last Budget and her social care confusion have not helped her cause. We won`t get another chance as good as this to wipe out Labour and the idiot Left. If we don`t-five years up the road may be our last serious election before Islam and the Eurozone implosion give us REAL Fascists like Momentum and 38 Degrees.
A clear divide in this country now-the dying knowing like Tebbit-the entitled licensed idiots like Russell, Liam and Lily rising.
chrisH,
As ever, you have hit the nail on the head with every point raised. Glad to see you back, with increasing frequency, posting common sense.
SJ
I thought it was very generous of al Beebus to allow Jezza to bring his own clapometer into the studio.
“BBC debate audiences may have been hijacked by Labour supporters posing as Tories, experts warn.”
Applications from ‘sources’ or an AlBeeb editorial decision?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/02/bbc-debate-audiences-may-have-hijacked-labour-supporters-posing/
PS. Good post Alan. The audience was better but still had a minority of Momentum ‘clapping seals’.
Thanks for the edit Alan.
Last night Matt Frei came up with “The Guardian says that Farage is wanted by the FBI”.
This nonsense needed denial, laughing off. Does Channel 4 STILL think that Trump is wrong regarding the Left and its “Fake News” conspiracy bollocks? Channel 4 are lethal and stupid-they need to go down the BBC plughole quickly.
I don’t remember the whooping and hollering that greeted Corbyn’s arrival for May when she rolled up.
I’m watching it now and I can see that Corbyn is going to get an easy ride. These debates, and the leader one before it, are utterly useless. It’s just pointless soundbite nonsense with a chance for audience members to stick it to the government or moan at those on the right.
I’m going to have to turn it off, it’s bringing a grey cloud into my Friday night.
Your point about soundbite nonsense is absolutely right PBN. I’m amazed that nobody seems to have remembered that it was on Clegg’s performance alone that we finished up with a hung parliament, and a Conservative/Libdem alliance. He was given the facility to convince enough voters that ‘here was a man who knew his onions, spoke the truth from the heart and could be trusted to keep his promises.’ And we all know how well that went.
That is a good point Beltane. Just because someone came in and remembered a questioners name and then kept repeating it is pretty much what seduced a nation and why we had that hung parliament.
The only time when you have really good debates are when you have people on with confidence and are prepared to say things that others aren’t – like Farage and co otherwise it’s just like normal versions of QT with leaders trotting out vacuous lines. Trouble is people don’t like those with strong opinions, so although the Beeb wants the likes of Farage to come on and shake things up, they are usually doing everything to destroy them.
I think the best debate I’ve seen on the Beeb was Farage vs Clegg over the EU. It was centered on just one topic and two diametrically opposed going at it.
That was a good debate, I agree, and Farage absolutely blew Clegg out of the water. I enjoyed every minute of that one.
The main advantage Clegg had, which was why people soaked up his claptrap, was that the LibDems had been nowhere near power since the LibLab Pact over forty years ago and even then that was only a minor roll. In effect the LimpDims, including their former incarnation as the Liberals, had not held power for the last century.
That gave him the benefit of being able to promise the earth thinking the LimpDims would never be close enough to power to be called to book for the fantasies, and we all know how that turned out.
Another benefit he had was after being out of power for so long was that he could point to any of the failures, both real and invented, of both Labour and the Tories and plead total innocence whilst playing the ‘If Only’ card. ‘If only we had been there to hold them back none of the failures would have happened, we would have stopped them.’
Of course once the LimpDims had to make good on their boasts they were exposed for what they are, empty headed dreamers who would sell us out to anybody who promises to give them what they want. They are a danger to all of us because, like any other Gold-digger, they will swap and change at a whim to chase after whoever looks most likely to shower them with whatever they demand.
I can’t help but wish when May was having to defend wanting to go into the EU negotiations without the commitment to paying an exit fee she had said “you know it’s quite likely that later in this debate we’ll be talking about limited budgets, nurses pay etc. hence when I’m saying that I don’t want to pay a fee, it’s because I have other pressing things to spend that money on”.
When we are squabbling over a billion on social care or infrastructure, where exactly is the mattress that so many people think the UK government has stuffed cash under to service the EU’s ridiculous demands.
“Tonight May gave the usual stolid performance only really facing a hard question on nurses’ pay…”
This is what pisses me off!
We’re going back to the days of political scripting, rather than progressive language. If I was in Theresa May’s position, I would have challenged that nurse on how much she earned comparative to the average wage – £27,600. I would bet that MOST nurses earn MORE than the average wage.
So how do nurses end up at food banks???
They don’t! There is no way that an employed nurse could possibly obtain food vouchers to redeem at a food bank unless they are suffering hardship via other “issues”, the same issues that we ALL face.
The NHS should not become a religion! The hospital cleaners are as important as the nurses. We should praise the cleaners as we do the nurses and doctors. No jobs are more important than others in any area of our lives.
Edward, the starting pay for a nurse in England is £21,652.
In Scotland £300 more.
In London, a few thousand more.
There was a doctor on sky or bbbc news saying some people on benefits are getting more than doctors.
She was not challenged on this.
The state pension in England is, for 50 years full contributions, just over £6000
The state pension in England is the lowest in the eu as a percentage of the average wage with some places getting 4 or 5 times the English pension.
The recent MPs pay rise alone was 150% times the pension.
I’m a second class pensioner, not on this new 30 or 35 year contributions for £155 per week as opposed to the £122 per week for 50 years contribution so I cannot comment on how the new pension compares.
So, how many pensioners, on less than a third of a nurses pay, are using food banks?
Are the ‘wealthy’ pensioners, the ones who will lose the winter fuel payment, the ones NOT using food banks.
Isn’t Mark Mardell still in Finland looking for one? Or did Diane Abbott eat them all?
Guest,
Lol !
That a good point on the language though in Scotland if you head into the Citizens Advice Bureau and give them a sob story they can refer you to a local food bank without any questioning of your financial or employment status. This was certainly the case 3-4 years ago.
It’s a pious hope but I would like to see no more debates, whatever the format in future. Politics has become a poor relation of show business with a concentration on personalities and little in- depth discussion of issues . Corbyn is a better public performer than May, which makes the Lynton Crosby decision to have a presidential campaign all the more difficult to fathom. May has a stiff and starchy personality not well suited to our non deferential age. She’s not good at delivering killer blows in debate. All this means that Corbyn has got away with murder in that his policies have not had enough critical examination. The BBC in particular have aided Corbyn by giving him an easy time. The format of TV debates, squabbling and superficial, has made matters worse.
Spot on analysis.
I agree. I had not known Andrea Leadsom before the referendum debates, but I thought she came across very well, and had an engaging personality. I think she should have had her chance to face the Conservative party members in a leadership election, but it seems the men in grey suits got to her.
I think it would be better if the audience was forbidden from clapping , whooping , hissing etc in these debates .
Really , clapping and showing appreciation for a comment should be for when a contributor makes a real thought provoking comment , even if you mainly disagree with them . Not making a noise just because one of your own is gabbling away .
Islam anybody? (a dearth of reference above)
That’s the creeping sickness but no-one wants to mention. At the current growth rates of islam, all other discussion will increasingly become irrelevant.
For ‘balance’…
***
BBC Radio 4
Amol Rajan asks Jon Snow and James O’Brien what they think in the latest Media Show podcast.
***
Amol clearly keen to ensure the answers he gets are the ‘right’ ones.
It’s in his DNA.
GW, did you notice that in the last few seconds of that interview they threw in an insult to Amber Rudd and one to Katie Hopkins. The insults had nothing to do with the topic under discussion, but they knew they wouldn’t be challenged so they indulged their prejudice. Three nasty people on yet another BBC programme that’s been ruined.