Horror!! Nasty nationalist little Catalonians, those bigoted, racist little Catalonians who want to go it alone and declare independence!!! Their referendum will surely give licence to the racists to start attacking ‘foreigners’ in Catalonia and will certainly encourage those wishing to relive the Franco era to come out from under their stones.
Oh…hang on…that’s the BBC message about Brexit not Catalan…Catalonians are brave resisters who are fighting the Fascist, Franco state with a demonstration of people power…
In a demonstration of people power, hundreds braved a hail of rubber bullets, batons and riot shields to force a retreat by the police. It was an unforgettable sight on a day full of unexpected violence.
Daniel Sanchez told us he’d arrived at 01:00. “My grandfather would be proud,” he said. He went on to draw a comparison between the Spanish state of today and the Franco era. It was a common refrain.
When we spoke to former regional leader Artur Mas after he cast his vote, he crystallised what many here are thinking: “Everywhere there are peaceful people who are trying to cast their vote – and there is a violent Spanish state that is trying to prevent people from voting.”
So the Catalan independence protestors are brave and principled whilst the Spanish state in trying to stop an illegal referendum and secession from Spain is acting like Franco and oppressing the people… the bête noir of the Left and so the obvious figure for the BBC to compare things to.
Shame the BBC doesn’t show so much concern for the result of a legal referendum and ‘people power’ back in the UK which the Left are trying to undermine and stop using whatever means they can.
Alan,
Sometimes I really don’t get the al beeb point of view. Ok – any brexit – pro socialist – but the attitude shown to the brutality used by police on their own people just for trying to express their personal political opinions goes largely uncriticised .
It’s frightening because if al beeb distorts this then what would happen here if we are cheated of brexit ??
And – of course – the EU doesn’t work at weekends unless they want to have a dig at Blighty.
I think the issues over secessionist movements are too complicated for the BBC mindset which has long been addled with political correctness and revolutionary Marxism. Are these revolts good for the progressive cause or bad? They struggle with it but will ultimately come down on the side of rebellion unless it is clear beyond doubt that the rebels are right wing. So Brexit bad, SNP good. That type of mentality.
Most secessionist movements are socialist supported because left tactics are designed to feed off divisions and to magnify grievances so when a movement arises the socialists are attracted to it like moths to a flame. They are always hopeful that the resulting disorder will produce conditions which will allow the hard left to take over the newly independent states and everyone can then be made to live unhappily ever after in the new paradise. Leftists will also like smaller states because they are easy to control. Once you have a country with large population and distance between region it is harder to install a totalitarian regime. Socialists are by nature and training control freaks. The smaller the political unit the more tempting the target. This is why we see socialism/communism which claims to be internationalist supporting openly nationalist breakaway movements.
Of course not all the nationalists are socialists. In the over-fed affluent west we have the romantic nationalists who see or conjure-up a proud past but cannot see down the track of the future very well. A good example of this is the recent Scottish agitation. Now many Scots are realising that the Scotland of Nicola Sturgeon and her ilk will be a far cry from their own bonny
vision.
One of the problems we have in the west is that the propaganda of the USA’s successful fight against Britain has become gospel and is paraded globally as a fight of good against evil, freedom against oppression yadda yadda. Not just by Marxist but by many schools of thought including, by no means least, whig historians.
Trying to look at the current situation in Spain from a British perspective. My first reaction is to say a pox on both your houses, but there again if it hurts the loathsome EU can it be all bad? At least it is unlikely that Spain can start a war over Gibraltar while they can’t control their own people.
In the end I would have to say I don’t want to see another nation in Europe unless the people are doing it to be free of forced Islamization. Bigger national units will prove to be more resistant to being taken over by Islam. And that, chaps is what will count in the near future.
Yasser, an extremely well argued post but I’ll disagree with you completely on one thing: The bigger something is the more likely it will become a dictatorship. With the USA as the obvious exception, you can look at the USSR, China etc. They have to be dictatorships as the only way to control their people. The EU’s attempt to become an ever larger “country” shows that the only way of achieving it is by becoming less democratic all the time. That’s why a full Brexit is good for democracy as the UK will most likely be a lot freer than the EU could ever be.
Also, smaller countries who turn into basket cases are in a much better position to be democratised by internal revolution or outside help. The reason that North Korea has been able to become such an awful place is that they have been backed by the biggest dictatorship in the world; China.
To me it’s obvious that smaller areas will normally be more democratic. That’s why at the basic level of local government, when good councillors know a good number of their voters, there is much more chance of the wishes of the locals being acted upon. Unfortunately the downside is that it can also lead to corruption, although that is even more likely in large dictatorships, e.g. the EU, the USSR etc.
Grappling with the long-term social and political origins of the Catalonian “problem” is far beyond the wit of the BBC.. and many Spaniards themselves are unable to understand where the intimidating assortment of anarchists, socialists, communists, trade unionists AND increasingly Muslim supporters of “independence” will lead them …
In general, the BBC throws its hand in with whichever side is most hostile to freedom and liberty. Hence, the BBC is all for independence in the People’s Republic of Caledonia or its even crazier Iberian twin (Viva Los Open Borders), but against it when it might lead to people escaping from the UESR.
DJ
I’m not sure what the cats stance on the EU is. Apparently 7 million cats produce 25% of Spanish GDP so an independent cat would presumably pay in a lot to the EU money tree.
Be great if they did a catxit- especially since the commission considers beating old people whose only ‘crime’ is wanting to vote – as in internal danish matter.
Except a “catexit” would be in direct conflict with the Spanish Constitution and therefore illegal.
And any referendum on a “catexit” would require the participation of all Spanish and they would lose as they can’t even raise a majority in Catalonia for “independence”. Then there is the Basque country, Galicia and Andalucia all with claims for “independence” all wanting “independence in a domino effect.
The “Independence for Yorkshire” at present has 8% support – where does it end?
Maria21: Except a “catexit” would be in direct conflict with the Spanish Constitution and therefore illegal … would require the participation of all Spanish …
Hi Maria21, but that’s not how independence works – is it? In the Ottoman Empire in the early 19th century it was illegal for “Greece” to declare independence – they had to fight for it. So you need to develop different arguments than saying independence is illegal under the controlling state’s laws and that people from outside the area have a say. Catalonia has a history, a language, a period of deep repression under the Franco overlordship, it is contiguous, it has everything needed to be an independent state.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/metro.co.uk/2017/10/01/firefighters-defend-voters-from-riot-police-in-catalonia-referendum-6968962/amp/
Apologies for previous entry. My spell check turned ‘ spanish’ into ‘danish’…. unless the spell check knows something we don’t.
My spell check turned ‘ spanish’ into ‘danish’
That’s odd. An acquaintance who works at the BBC reports that the spell checker on his computer keeps turning ‘Britain’ into ‘Third World Dungheap’.
Ha ha
How right Ian. And I can’t even spell Czech.
I think someone on this site stole my line( above) and sent it to Twitter ‘sh** jokes . ( I’m honoured )
Ian Rushlow, I only wish I could add 10 “likes” instead of a miserly one — best laugh out loud post of the week! (re computer spell checker for “Britain” )
In a demonstration of people power, hundreds braved a hail of rubber bullets, batons and riot shields to force a retreat by the police. It was an unforgettable sight on a day full of unexpected violence.
Daniel Smith told us he’d arrived at 01:00. “My grandfather would be proud,” he said. He went on to draw a comparison between the European Union of today and the Nazi era. It was a common refrain.
When we spoke to former regional leader Arthur Mason after he cast his vote, he crystallised what many here are thinking: “Everywhere there are peaceful people who are trying to cast their vote – and there is a violent Pro-EU state that is trying to prevent people from voting.
And then there are the voters who gleefully said they had voted five times at five different places. The whole thing is a shambles and the majority of people in both Catalonia and greater Spain do not want “independence”. Also hospital admissions do not correspond to the claims of violence. Fake News abounds .. but then would one expect less when their are anarchists,communists and increasingly Muslims involved.
Hi Maria21, what you are referring to is an administrative issue – if there is really an issue with regard to multiple voting. It is claimed that the recent British general election was marred with students voting twice – once in their university constituency and once in their home constituency. Again this is an administrative issue. When it comes to democratic choice their should be a traceable audit system.
Good comments Maria. I think a lot of us on this site are so keen to see the EU get one in the eye that it might cloud our better judgement. If Spain becomes balkanized what benefit of that is to anyone? Secessionists are dreamers and wreckers in most cases. While I have not been following the news from Spain as closely as I should, I did get the impression that the Catalan independents were largely the ‘open borders’ type and ‘refugees welcome” sort. Perhaps you have more information on that?
Hi. The whole Catalonia independence referendum “question” is a complete shambles …
Apart from the “referendum” being unconstitutional and illegal Catalonia does not have an Electoral Commission (equiv) so the same person could vote ad infinitum: and those against “independence” do not want to get involved (or intimidated by leftie/communist thugs). Independent “polls” show that the majority of Catalonians (those with sufficient mental ability to understand simple economics of running an “independent” country) do not want “independence.
Then there is the Muslim factor … Catalonia has encouraged thousands of Muslims to “settle” in the region exchanging “welfare” for their vote. Of course the Muslims love this and once their population reaches critical mass they will view things very differently in the Catalonian Caliphate.
I lived in Spain for 18 years during the Franco era … and like it or not all this nonsense would never have got off the ground in his day!
Then there is the Farage Factor … He is now equating Spanish police ”brutality” with the EU claiming that the Madrid government is enthral with Brussels. Total nonsense but the Brexiters are lapping it all up! Two weeks ago I was a staunch “Brexiter” my opinions are rapidly changing as another “agenda” begins to unfold!
It’s irrelevant if the Catalonian referendum is constitutional or not . The USSR had a constitution and so do other autocratic States . The EU could have a constitution that rules Brexit illegal .
Also if other people in Spain want independence why not ?
The only relevant question is whether the majority want it .
You write:- “The only relevant question is whether the majority want it … ” And the majority of all the Spanish are unanimously against independence for Catalonia. And non-aligned polls indicate that the majority of Catalans are against independence. But the likes of Nigel Farage are milking this like mad claiming that it is all about “police brutality” encouraged by Brussels.
There appears to be a darker “agenda” and I am rapidly changing my views about Brexit …
Maria21 – I have many doubts about it all but that is good thing.
‘Shut up and listen!’ David Starkey RIPS APART Nick Robinson in furious pro-Brexit R4 row {express.co.uk 29mar2017}
… this could be related to what is happening in Catalonia ,Spain, sorry to bring up Islam again …
Islam in Spain {euro-islam.info}
‘The spatial distribution of “Muslims” in Spain is not homogeneous. The four provinces of Catalonia, especially Barcelona (see map of reference), and the provinces of Madrid, Almeria, Murcia, and the three provinces of the Autonomous Region of Valencia concentrate the majority of the population. But all provinces in Spain have a “Muslim” population, never less than 500 “Muslims”.’ – Islam in Spain {euro-islam.info}
Regardless of the views of Nick Robinson, the quintessential BBC apologist, or the rather nutty David Starkey, the democrat majority Brexit decision remains a controversial and unpredictable enigma. If UK leadership lack the presence and skill to dominate the Germans in the EU will they also lack the same attributes to survive on the world stage? There is more to the issue than we are allowed to discover.
Many thanks for the graphs – 9 years out of date. The flood of Islam has rapidly increased since these were produced as they are drawn to the areas of Almeria and Murcia, (where we have property interests) by the agricultural work: but “work” and Muslims is an oxymoron and this only lasts until they have sufficient stamps-on-their-cards to hand over themselves, their wives and multiple children to the care of the State and the Spanish tax payer… the State appearing far more generous towards them than the indigenous people!
It is a RAPIDLY growing problem as Mosques spring up like mushrooms.
I have lived in Bradford for over 50 years and seen it all before, but nobody is listening!
Finally (in my opinion) it is VERY dangerpus to draw comparisons between Brexit and Catalonia there is very little in common.
Maria
I do believe that being in the European Union, our Governments stagnate and rot from the head. There is nothing for the Governments to do but go to a meeting to hear what the orders are for the day/week/year/century.
I like nutty David Starkey because of what he says, he comes across as brash but I think that’s required because the people he ends up talking too don’t want to talk they want you to comply.
Always end with “think of the children” and you can win the argument by not having one.
I hardly understand Brexit, never mind Catalonia’s events. On the eve of the referendum I could have voted either way but after writing my thoughts down thought I had a better understanding of what I thought. Orwell kept a diary because he knew that our own opinions and thoughts change over time – we just don’t want to acknowledge that we are so easily swayed.
Forgive my ignorance on Spanish current and historical events, but this is where I see the comparison …
1. A request for sovereignty (I don’t know the demands for this)
2. Being economically successful but feeling that the other partners are not as generous with trade and finances.
3. The Government in consensus on backing Remain in the Union
4. Using the Ballot box to let the Region decide
.. starts splitting here …
5. Using the Ballot box to let the Region decide, not approved by Spanish Government
6. Police sent in to stop the voting, involving some horrible scenes against it’s elderly citizens
Spain is an enigma and the Spanish mind a labyrinth.
These people are NOT always predictable but they do hold a strong love for their country and they do no wish to see it torn apart by a bunch of anarchists , communists AND increasingly Muslims.
Maria,
“If UK leadership lack the presence and skill to dominate the Germans in the EU will they also lack the same attributes to survive on the world stage? ”
We’ll survive. Apart from the internal cultural sabotage, it’s not so drastic as all that. The Western suicide mission is surely even stronger within the EU than without it. We have weak leaders. That needs to change but chaining ourselves permanently to a dictatorship that is openly hostile us is no alternative. We stand more chance of preserving a democratic vote if we are free of the EU. The fear of us failing on our own has never been an issue for me. Not when I voted last year for a complete exit of the EU & not today. Better men (hopefully many more MEN) may step up to the leadership plate. It isn’t as if we as a nation have no experience governing ourselves.
I agree … Britain needs strong and decisive leadership to lead the country out onto the world stage. Unfortunately there are not many of these to found amongst the present bunch of Westmonster scroungers. Hope springs eternal, but don’t hold you breath as none have emerged since Thatcher.
Hi Maria21, the graphs support your contention of large numbers of Muslims settling in the Catalonia region, but the not the cause of it. But the graphs don’t refute your contention this is a deliberate policy of the Catalonian devolved government. Maybe you could provide evidence that (links) this has been a policy of the Catalonian devolved government rather than a policy of the Spanish State government.
I have to agree with you Maria. There is no comparison between Brexit and Catalan independence. They are at complete odds with each other. My family own property in the Almeria region too (Mojácar), and I have learned a lot about the Spanish in the last 15 years.
However, I’m not sure why you have doubts about Brexit. A part of the reason I voted for Brexit was because of my exposure to Spain and the Spanish. Whilst the UK plays by EU rules, Spain seems to get away with murder regarding health and safety, accessibility and equality. Not only that, but Spain’s southern regions that rely heavily on tourism will fall into ruin if Britain doesn’t get a good deal with the EU on property rights and open air routes to and from Spain – something the EU is threatening us with.
Whilst the people of Europe are our friends, the EU seems to be our mutual enemy, whichever country you come from.
Your argument that the majority of CATALANS don’t want independence , or that the referendum was not conducted properly are valid points that if true I would support your view that Catalonia should not have independence .
Your argument that other people not in Catalonia don’t want them to gain independence , or that a dictator would not allow it , or that it would encourage others elsewhere to try to gain independence or that those who you think are more intelligent are against independence are not valid and lead us to presume Catalonia should have independence .
I don’t believe you were for Brexit anyway .
I cannot understand your comments (except that you are insinuating that I am a liar) and am unable to reply
None so blind as those who don’t want to see .
And yes , seeing some further comments of yours , I will say you are a liar .
Granting “independence” to every region, town or village because a majority have voted for it may satisfy certain “interests” … but if in the long term these “interests” are found to have been perverted and long term damage ensues then extreme care/research must first be diligently conducted.
Hi Maria21 – that is a disingenuous argument. Catalonia is NOT equivalent to a town or a village. You go beyond what can be considered plausible argument. This suggests you have an emotional link to this issue. Having an emotional link to this issue is fine – but you need to recognise it. It makes the difference between presenting an impartial view of the matter compared to an emotionally attached partial view of the matter. Neither of which would make someone a “bad” or “unethical” person.
ps I have looked at your comments, and personally for me, I think you would be a valuable addition as commentator to this site. I may not agree with everything you say – but I agree you have the right to say it – and as far as I can tell from your comments you are an intelligent and cogent individual. Best wishes.
pps Please don’t take things too seriously. Go on any website and there is a certain amount of friction between commentators. It is in the nature of discussing politics and religion. Things get heated quickly – if you allow it too. But I think on many issues we can agree. On issues that we may disagree on – then note the fact that there is a disagreement – and move on.
Spain is no friend to this country. The more problems both it and the EU have the better as far as I am concerned.
You write “Spain is no friend to this country…. ” Have you conducted a “poll” amongst the British people to justify your opinion? Never wish “problems” on anyone, they have a habit of biting back!
It’s not a popularity poll, it is matter of political fact. Spain has been aggressive over Gibraltar for decades and is wedded to the Franco-German run EU, out of which it has done rather well, its sky-high youth unemployment rate notwithstanding.
You wouldn’t happen to be Spanish would you?
Yep. And thrown off the Breitbart site for the trouble!
I am also “coloured” if that is any help.
The issue of Gibraltar is too complex to discuss here – but when all facts are considered, and the jingoism ignored, it should be handed back to Spain.
The case for the prosecution rests, M’Lud.
Pathetic response from a half-brained idiot!
Thrown off Breitbart, you say? I can’t imagine why. How beastly of them.
Further confirmation of your child like intellect – Troll.
I thought it was a very good response to a weakly presented argument.
Your petulant response, however, is very revealing.
A very good response if you support xenophobic, racists.
Read his/her comments directed at me.
And I am not allowed to become annoyed?
Are you all like him/her on this blog?
Life must be very difficult with an IQ of 21, but please try not to take it out on people here.
Clare Resorting to ridiculous insults is the hallmark of someone who has little else to say. You really should grow up. Love Maria
Mariq21:
“Clare Resorting to ridiculous insults is the hallmark of someone who has little else to say.”
In a sense, you’re quite right – I do have little to say to people who make unsupported assertions and quickly resort to insults, as pointed out by Lucy Pevensey, below.
You really are quite obnoxious, aren’t you?
You are the one who has turned up hurling unfounded insults.
“childlike intellect” “troll” “racist” “xenophobe”
Have you taken a poll on whether we, the English, think it should be handed back?
No. Have you? Or are you just another jingoist supporting a crime riddled piece rock with less military significance than Torquay and largely subsidised by the British tax payer.
The UK has broken many of the conditions listed in the Treaty of Utrecht – and is now in breach of contract and the territory should be handed back to Spain.
Have you taken a poll on whether the Spanish think Gibraltar should be handed back?
I doubt if you care.
Why would we care about what another country thinks of a settlement that they have no legitimate claim to? Or are you just too intellectually lazy and historically illiterate to look past the tired “geographical proximity” straw man employed with the Falklands?
You’ve provided no arguments, just childlike attacks and labels based on barely-disguised prejudices. You are everything that you accuse others of being on here.
I think not Maria,
Cooper has been posting here for quite a while & is not known as a troll.
It seems that you have a bone to pick?
Psst.
Methinks ‘Maria’ might be one of the type which she accuses GCooper of being, although alternatively HER coruscating intellect might be on display …. or not.
Fairly certain that I never come across him in my life … but then there are racist, xenophobes like him about.
Quite a few on this blog it would appear.
Maria
“Racist xenophobes” yawn. How original!
Psst …
Methinks ‘Maria21’ might be the type who scorns those who uses pretentious words like “coruscating” …
This thread has got petty and boring, keep the comments intelligent please. Constructive argument is worth reading, bitchy comments are not.
I don’t like zapping posts but I will do if this continues.
Best draw a line and start again posting with good arguments. Forget previous insults. Please.
Moderator.
“…you know what happens when you are insulted? You become more dogmatic in holding your (possibly) incorrect belief before you were insulted…” Trey Gowdy Pin Drop Speech Persuasion -@5:08
Hi wronged! I didn’t even know there was any moderation going on on this site – which must be a good thing (light touch moderation that is unnoticeable).
May I offer a quirky and likely highly impracticable suggestion. All newbies should be given an L-Plate until they find their feet on the site. It seems to me that maybe Maria21 is a newby to commentating on this site. Best wishes.
ps – very good comment MarkyMark. If I was awarding a star system rating to commentating – I would rate you as a gold star commentator. But maybe I am biased towards those people that seem to share a similar outlook in life as myself. Actually I find you helpful and informative – so maybe I am not being biased. Best wishes.
Thanks. I would give myself a goldstar rating to being very biased to myself, so don’t feel biased yourself.
So I’ve just started the novel ‘1984’ to understand the BBC and now feel I should start reading ‘Homage To Catalonia’ to understand more about the world and Catalonia … It is indeed the year of George Orwell and he still matters.
Hi Xhe/Zhe/They Moderator,
Can one of the menu items be dedicated to stories (max 3) that reveal the utter bias of the BBC.
What would be good would be some stories that show the utter unashamed bias dripping from the story.
I would suggest the ‘Chaos as police stop Hungary migrant train – Gavin Hewitt – BBC -Sep 2015 @53s’ story which hides a nasty migrant (can’t have those) from the news story and is still available (so the BBC are the originators of FakeNews?).
Take it from the point of view that a person comes onto the site and says “What bias? I’ve never seen any bias!”. Then they read a max of three stories and then go, “Oh, you might have a point but they were so long ago.”. Which is why you make sure the top story is the latest one.
Gary ‘£1.75m Wages paid under threat of prison but a Labour supporter’ is another good example.
To keep giving a fraud a platform to sell more fraud, to give a pedophile a safe-space, to pay opinionated people large wages who are supposed to be socialists but thrive on capitalism, to forget the 71 genders when drawing contracts, to pay grown ups who phone people and talk about having sex with their granddaughter and then invite them back for more pay, to let Directors claim £34 pounds on expenses when they earn 450k, to give these people on high wages free pass to opera and nights out, to write news that hides details, to over use a term like right-wing and forget the left-wing, to give Labour an easier ride, to drop the term Islam and Muslim, to forget Roy Larner, to make everything political.
Just a suggestion, do as you please!
Catalan politician this am:-
‘We’ve asked the EU to step in but want no involvement’.
Foolish man he didn’t offer them a few million!
Having said that the EU may fine them for something – anything.
The EU has been the organisation that has put Regions above nation states , and therefore helped encourage independence among some of the regions .
That said , if any demos of people want independence , then they should have it , irrespective of some larger entity wishing to block it .
Yike! Things got nasty. But I think we should accept that this is a complicated issue and calm down a bit. I will be disagreeing with many excellent commentators on this site when I say that I don’t wish the ‘Catalonians’ any success. I don’t have any more more time for them than I do any other bunch of Marxists and anarchist and loonies. One political maxim that I have never agreed with is that ‘The enemy of my enemy is my friend’ . I think it is not a road to go down. And I remember during the Iran-Iraq war both countries were supporting each others Kurdish separatists while still fighting their own.
As for Nigel Farage, he shoots his mouth off without thinking on too many issues these days. I think if people think it through they will see that cheering on the Catalans is just supporting the same sort of people and cause as the Scottish National Party.
In the meantime, though, we can all enjoy the EU’s discomfort.