Stephen Pollard takes issue with a Michael Buchanan piece – which has since been stealth-edited.
As for the idea that, All the Danes can do now is hope the repeated apologies for the offence caused, by both the government and the newspaper, will end this unseemly row, has a sentence more indicative of the BBC world view ever been written? Take a running jump, Mr Buchanan. So much for the BBC as a stout defender of free speech.
Stewart Lee is a talented writer and performer but his different attitudes to Christianity and Islam struck me as astounding double standards. The purpose of satire is to ridicule all, not selective targets. Shocked by how PC he was.
But this is not surprising, when religious extremism was a topic on a comedy panel game (Mock the Week), all the comedians poked fun out of Christianity and Judaism, but strangely not Islam. I wonder why?
In Europe, the fiercest hostility to Islam comes not from Christians but from Atheists, contrary to the left’s waffle about US Christians.
“In Europe, the fiercest hostility to Islam comes not from Christians but from Atheists” – cant disagree with you there. Pim Fortuyn was an atheist for example. Theo Van Gogh was as well.
And Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a convert to atheism too…
ok folks, the cruise ship – lifeboats detected. oh dear.. not looking good.
ttp://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_034052018.html
I’ve just been checking the website of The Times and there’s a very weak-kneed attempt (by a Murdoch newspaper) to justify NOT publishing the cartoons of muhamad.
I also read that, following the BBC-driven trial of the two BNP personnel, they are to be re-tried. Firstly, this re-trial was announced before the ink was dry on the jury’s verdict which suggests pre-planning by the CPS or Attorney-General. Secondly, why are they being re-tried? If they are being re-tried because government didn’t like the verdict, then that is a true and verifiable lapse into fascism, which NuLab claims is espoused by the BNP.
From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4675534.stm
“‘Gloating about freedom’
The Muslim Council of Britain said its reaction to the BBC decision would depend on the context in which it used the images.
A spokesman said: “It depends on whether they’re broadcast to illustrate the story about the row developing or, in the same way as the European newspapers have published, to gloat about freedom.”
I cannot describe how angry I am at this from the MCB – too bloody right I will gloat about my freedom you bunch of *****!!!!
who are the MCB? who elected them?
how come anti-discrimination laws arent applied to the MCB – note how there arent any female representatives anytime they pop up.
“gloat”? i’ll positively roar about freedom from now on, waving a Danish flag dressed in Viking regalia…
RE Stuart Lee, eh?
Translation “2 billion Christians aren’t going to kill anyone if I ofend them (cant they take a joke!) But anyone willing to spill my blood should be treated with the utmost respect and understanding, for I am a coward.”
I recind earlier comments of hope related to this story, it seems nothing has changed after all..
As for understanding islam, well so far as far as I can tell no one has mentioned the Hadith where Mohamed sanctione the muder of a poetess (Asma Marwan), and Muslims ARE told by the Koran that Mohamed is a perfect example of how to behave.
I couldnt find a direct link to the USC archives so here is the relevant text form this link:
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Christians/lom_seminar.html
MURDER OF ASMA MARWAN AH 2
[The Murder of Asma Marwan: LoM p675-676, Tabaqat Vol 2 p31]
Asma was a mother of 5 children some still in infancy, and she spoke out against Muhammad and his murder of Abu Afak. This troubled Muhammad so he asked his men to murder her as well: “Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?” During the night a Muslim crept into her home and stabbed her to death while she slept with her children.
“He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: “Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?” He said: “Yes. Is there something more for me to do?” He [Muhammad] said: “No. Two goats will butt together about her.” Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol 2, p31
Muhammad was right, her tribesmen didn’t care about her murder. The following day the Muslim murderer returned and mocked her children.
“The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam.”
thinking about this from a “christian” perspective, is it not unreasonable to deduce that Mohammed was the anti-christ, as predicted by Jesus or the Book of Revelations maybe? i would like to know what Christian theologians think about all this murdering stuff in the Koran.
cruise ship update. looks like it could be an accident rather than a terrorist attack. news reports are saying that bad weather is hampering rescue efforts. also the cruise ship appear to have been carrying mostly egyptian passengers.
This could be a defining moment in Europe’s relations with Islam. Yet most of th3e press are cravenly avoiding publication of the offending cartoons. Churchill’s words about Chmberlain’s appeasement seem apposite :
“They are decided to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, all powerful to be impotent – This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time.”
Rupert Murdoch’s father bravely attacked the folly of Gallipoli, helped to bring the tragedy to an end. Where is the Murdoch spine today ?
listening to an irish radio stream, and an Irish priest in the Vatican has called in , backing the Danes, telling Irish listeners that to give in would “return us to the Dark ages”.
knowing the way the Vatican works, it is highly unlikely that he would have been allowed to say that without prior higher-up approval.
the vatican – of all places… my how times have changed.
BBC’s Newsnight did have an excellent debate including a HUT rep and a female Muslim arguing against him in favour of free speech.
i think most points made on this topic cover the everything..
more importantly:
why should a Russian state owned company be allowed to buy a british gas company and hold the country to ransom?
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/df9675ae-9459-11da-82ea-0000779e2340.html
muslim cartoon protest outside danish embassy today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676524.stm
neglects to mention that one of the groups protesting has opening called for the killing of the cartoonists:
http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/articles/new/cartoon.htm
http://www.alghurabaa.co.uk/pr/danishdemo.htm
Always interesting to see what the Reds have to say…
http://www.communist-party.org.uk/
the vatican – of all places… my how times have changed
A recent interview with one of the Pope’s closest associates tells that Benedict XVI is “unreformable”. Recent pastoral advice also suggested Catholics think twice about marrying Muslims. This pope knows what he’s dealing with
We’re all in this together. If the enemies of free speech get their way, Catholics,Anglicans, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus, Agnostics are all going to have to watch their backs.
That should be:
Benedict XVI thinks Islam is “unreformable”. Though Benedict XVI might be unreformable, too!!!
Benedict XVI thinks Islam is “unreformable”.
Yes because The Koran is reputedly the Immutable Word of Allah and as such cannot be amended or interpreted.
If you believe that the words set down in Arabic and compiled after M’s death by Uthman ibn Affan are the Immutable Word of Allah then it is hard to propose any changes. after all Uthman was succeeded by Ali whose murder is the basis of the Shia split.
Since Arabic as a language has neither importance nor literature without The Koran you can see why they want its “purity” kept intact. Pope Benedict is a theologian of major significance, the greatest German theologian in the Catholic Church since Martin Luther –
The right to offend within the law remains crucial to our free speech. Muslims who choose to live in the West must accept that we, too, have a right to our values, and to live according to them. Muslims must accept the predominant mores of their adopted culture: and most do. One of these is the lack of censorship and the ready availability of material that some people find deeply offensive: anyone who wishes to see the cartoons can find them within a few clicks on the internet.
Those Muslims who cannot tolerate the openness and robustness of intellectual debate in the West have perhaps chosen to live in the wrong culture.
This from today’s Telegraph editorial. Spot on.
. Churchill’s words about Chmberlain’s appeasement seem apposite :
“They are decided to be undecided, resolved to be irresolute, adamant for drift, solid for fluidity, a
In the 1930s the BBC was sparing in giving Churchill airtime because his commentaries were not well-received in Berlin. In that context you might blame the British Ambassador in Berlin, Sir Neville Henderson, since it was he who pushed Chamberlain into appeasement with his sycophancy towards Goering and Hitler and feeding his own line to No.10
“We’re all in this together. If the enemies of free speech get their way, Catholics,Anglicans, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus, Agnostics are all going to have to watch their backs.”
well, the Indian Hindus certainly are watching their backs – they’ve built a 1300 mile fence cutting off Islamic Bangladesh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4653810.stm
bangladesh is 83% muslim
Some more images of Mohamed from accross the ages.
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/
Mr Musa said he was pleased that British newspapers had decided not to publish the cartoons
Good dhimmies, nice dhimmies. Here, have a doggie biscuit. Whoops, not a doggie biscuit, dogs are haram — here have a kitty treat.
Nice dhimmies, good dhimmies.
What was that phrase again? “Britons never will be slaves.”
Needs a rewrite, I think.
there’s going to be a muslim demo outside the danish embassy in london today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1701518,00.html
dont suppose i could stroll down the street in a viking fancy dress outfit?
(somehow, i’ve got visions of all those Vikings from the monty python “spam spam spam” sketch)
there’s an idea – counter demo. lots of vikings , chanting “spam spam spam”… fight jihad with cartoonish humour?
monty python spam sketch on google video, in case you dont have a clue what i’m on about:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5627694446211716271&q=monty+python
just wondering – it looks like the bbc site is down ?
I too watched BBC 2s Newsnight, the kowtowing to Islam doesn’t surprise me, that journalist Tim Whwell(like Frank Gardiner) went native yonks ago. Hilarious though seeing him with a print out of images of Mohammed from Zombietime.com interviewing a spokesman for Islamic Sharia in GB. Just as the imam leaned over and pointed at medieval masterpieces in the history of art and said they “are wrong”, I was reminded of similar religious pronouncements and Islamic aesthetic appreciation of the Buddhist sculptures in the Province of Bamyan in Afghanistan. No doubt Islamo-fascists (for this is what they are!) would ransack the western libraries and universities and galleries, burning any images of Mohammed in Western art they encountered. Have our own museums and galleries removed William Blake’s illustrations of Dante for fear of offending Islam? Images of Mohammed bearing his entrails in Hell, now that is surely offensive. The Times editorial today is fawning and sycophantic, note how it always prefixes any mention of Mohammed as “the prophet”, there are a lots of Koran eating surrender monkeys around right now. The mentality of appeasement towards these nasty threats, violence & intimidation is astonishing. It seems that the only lesson learnt from Rushdie, Van Gogh, and others is that we should try and avoid this, not fight this intolerance, as the enemy within gets bigger. How astonishing that the only person talking sense on BBC and prepared to do battle with this Islamic threat yesterday was Nick Griffin, and yet he had been accused of race hate. I agree with Susan lets hear more often the phrase “Britons never will be slaves”.
Notice that in today’s New York Times the BBC has been tar brushed too, lol. “They have since been reprinted in France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Spain and Hungary. The BBC broadcast them on Thursday.” We will probably hear a rebuttal, “No we haven’t really, we did it tastefully”, or, desperate screams, “No, No, don’t put us in the same European boat”, lol
Of course the answer to all this mohammed crap is for everyone, everywhere to publish insulting images of him at all times, Overwhelm those who take offence so easily.
These Muslims are so concerned about respect for Muhammad. So if they are worried about cartoons, why do they incur so much disrespect for themselves by their violent, rejectionist, self-destructive behaviour?
Answers to the LogicMaster, Planet Zilch.
BBC R4 World At One – 25 minutes of ‘why Moslems are offended’, ‘how are Moslems handling the insult?’ ‘what can be done to reduce the bad feeling generated by these cartoons?’ (complete with a clip of the pusillanimous Jack Straw slithering and fawning). And for the finale, of course, Sacranie with his usual mendacious weasel-words.
And of the opposing point of view? Not a single word. Not a solitary interview given to anyone defending freedom of speech. The entire programme was a craven, cowardly act of appeasement.
Complaint duly lodged. Not that it will make the slightest difference.
No doubt Islamo-fascists (for this is what they are!) would ransack the western libraries and universities and galleries, burning any images of Mohammed in Western art they encountered.
Hate to tell you john, but it’s even worse than that. They would destroy the entire canon of Western figurative art, if they could. Think for example how many Renaissance masterpieces depict Jesus or other biblical figures.
Jesus, Moses, etc. are Muslim “prophets” and the prohibition of painting/drawing them is also demanded by Islam.
The Sistine Chapel would be toast. Michaelangelo’s David would be toast. Titian and Raphael would be toast.
I’d like to see the gutless wonders of the Beeb ask that imam if the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is also “wrong” under Islam. If he answers truthfully (and that would be a big “if”) I think the Beeboids would be truly shocked by the answer.
But of course such a question will never be asked. Silly me.
(PS No Pasaran recently translated a piece by a “French” Muslim “artist” in which the “French” Muslim “artist” bragged about how the Muslims were going to destroy the treasures of the Louvre, a “dead” civilization according to the “artist.”)
This is about a lot more than cartoons.
archduke,
(D)HYS is “down for maintenance.” Probably because last I looked, there were more than 1,000 recommendations of the top post in the cartoon jihad thread, and it was entirely “off-message.” So were the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th “most recommended post” — each of which had more than 500 recommendations. After the Chinese Google fiasco, (D)HYS daren’t be caught so blatantly removing posts, so — “down for maintenance.”
jack straw has waved the white flag..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm
no surprises there so.
Susan
In fact the first four pages, at least, of the most recommended posts support the publication and brand the Muslim world as hypocrites and whingers.
I didn’t go beyond the fifth page because I didn’t have the time.
brussels journal has some very disturbing news:
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/747
Archduke
Not A WORD in defence of free speech in that article either. The BBC is unbelievable, completely unbalanced. They are just a mouthpiece for Islamic extremism.
Let’s hope there is a heavy police presence, hopefully armed to the teeth, outside the Danish embassy. These psychos could do anything.
Rick,
If you believe that the words set down in Arabic and compiled after M’s death by Uthman ibn Affan are the Immutable Word of Allah then it is hard to propose any changes
And indeed the RoPers do believe that, although the Koran is littered with comical errors.
It assumes, for example, that Christianity’s Holy Trinity was the Father, the Mother, and the Son. It is, of course, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Allah the all-wise and infallible was apparently unaware of this. How funny is that? What else didn’t he know? ‘Hey, Allah – what’s the highest mountain in China?’
As he handed down his wisdom to Mohammed, castigating Christians for worshipping the Father, the Mother, and the Son, little did Allah know he was at cross-purposes with Christians, who didn’t do any such thing.
Consequently the moon god handed poor old Mohammed a bit of a bum steer there. You have to laugh. Word of God, my arse!
I think if you asked a Muslim theologian about this little cock-up by Allah – or should that perhaps (gasp!) be by Mohammed, his ignorant loony paedophile prophet? – his answer would be to try to kill you as an enemy of Islam.
@ Socialism is Necrotizing
Overwhelm those who take offence so easily
Completely agree – let’s remind everyone that they hate us.
I don’t think that the BBC will publish them “to defend free speech” because the left has been undermining the concept of “free speech” for decades. The BBC has stifled debate on important issues and presented a ludicrously unbalanced picture – why on earth should they suddenly reverse their course 180 degrees?
Also there is another reason – the £billion investment they are making (or have made) in the Middle East. There is NO WAY they are going to put that at risk, so they’ll pretend nothing is happening. Sooner or later they will be forced to choose, and they’ll come down against free expression.
Un -Beleivable. Coverage of Mr Straw:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm
Straw condemns cartoon row press
Some of the cartoons depict the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has condemned the decision by some European newspapers to reproduce cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad as “disrespectful”.
But he praised the UK media for its “considerable responsibility and sensitivity” for not publishing them.
He said freedom of speech did not mean an “open season” on religious taboos. etc etc etc
BBC’s new motto:
We will mitigate them on the beaches. We shall capitulate them on the landing grounds. We shall mollify in the fields, and in the streets, we shall appease them in the hills. We will always surrender”
Off Topic:
Last night I heard on BBC TV, World Service, that the BNP two, Nick Griffin and Mark Collett, had been cleared in Leeds Crown Court, but that they “would have to face re-trial”. This latter statement had me worried until I found out today it was just a face-saving lie by the BBC (their undercover reporters had supplied the video footageand other “evidence” upon which the CPS’s case was based.
For an explanation of the actual lengthy judicial procedures required for a re-trial see:
http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=764
Cartoons from the Arab World
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm
from the Great http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/
Danish editor: “it was worth it”
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,398717,00.html
now – thats a character with spine.
read the article – they’ve had a barrage of death threats, and they still stand by what they did.
Study stuff those Danish Vikings, eh?
cartoon war – readers “speak out”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4674628.stm
Sorry to break the thread of conversation:
I’ve managed to get a google cache of the stealth edited pages – “Cartoon outrage bemuses Denmark”
‘Offical BBC version’
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4669210.stm
Before the Stealth Edit
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:CTGaNnDJmM0J:news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4669210.stm+%22Cartoon+outrage+bemuses+Denmark%22+:news.bbc.co.uk&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1
jack straw? who?
just say “Neville”
It should be remembered that this is not just about the right to draw some cartoon that muslims may not like. The prohibition of images within islam is just one of a whole list of prohibitions that are likely to come into conflict with western ideas.
From the consumption of pork, to the drinking of alcohol. From the kind of clothes women wear, to the keeping of dogs as pets. All are likely hot spots for trouble as islam expands into the west, and a craven, opportunistic political class panders to it at our expense.
We have already seen pork products start to disappear from staff and school canteens in the UK, we have seen pea and ham soup served to the poor of Strasbourg, denounced as racist and attempts made to ban it.
Slowly, out of fear and out of PC dogma, the non-muslim peoples of the west are being made to modify their life styles to accommodate the tyranny of islam.
The people of the west are not under the slightest obligation to live by, or respect, any of the rules of islam. It’s time the ruling elites of Europe remembered this.
“the pusillanimous Jack Straw, slithering and fawning”
Fantastic words there, particularly “pusillanimous”. I don’t know what it means, but it sounds just right. “Lickspittle” and “toady” are good words as well.
Absolutely off-topic, the BBC is reporting the death of Romano Mussolini, “the youngest son and last surviving child of Italy’s former fascist dictator”, who was an “accomplished jazz pianist”. (insert joke about the devil playing the best tunes here)
He started playing under an assumed name but reverted to his real name, at which point “his All Stars ensemble won critical acclaim”. Which leads me to wonder if there was really a jazz band called the Romano Mussolini All-Stars. Romano! He would have to be called Romano.
“We have to be very careful about showing the proper respect in this situation” says Jack Straw.
I remember reading something about how Hitler and Stalin were separated by their loyalty; Hitler was loyal to his friends even though they were mostly useless, incompetent lickspittles and toadies, whereas Stalin was not loyal to anyone, and he made this quite clear on many occasions. If you failed Stalin, or you were no use to him, you were not long for this mortal coil.
In this case, loyalty was a hindrance. The impression I get is that Tony Blair is a loyal man, my evidence being the continued employment of John Prescott and Jack Straw etc. I’m not comparing Tony Blair with Hitler, mind you, that would be mean.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/4678264.stm
Should ‘anti-Islam’ cartoons have been published?
It looks like the BBC have had enough of this debate. Let’s see if they remove any comments that don’t fit the Beeboid world view:
This Have Your Say has just been published. A selection of your comments will appear here shortly.