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“He is the world’s most powerful man. If we can’t put him in a cartoon what can we do?”
Like you did with Mohammed?
Owl of Minerva
I said Herod had no Jewish blood, that is he was not of the Jewish race.
I did not comment upon his religion, I fully accept that the Idumeans mostly converted to Judaism 100 years or so before Herod, as did others such as large parts of Gallilee.
Just as Judea is the Roman name for Judah so Idumea is the Roman name for Edom.
Perhaps I should have used the word Judean rather than Jewish elsewhere in my comment it would have been clearer.
There are many arguments he was Idumean as wikipedia confirms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great
Try a quick google of Herod and Idumean and see how many references you get.
But in fairness it depends as his father was Idumean but his mother was Nabatean and modern Jews trace throught the maternal line.
The Nabateans were an Arabian ethnic group hence the references to his being part Arab, though to say an Arabian sheikh is an anacronism.
That said quite why any Arabs or Palestinians whould want to ‘lay claim’ to this appalling man is beyond me.
Owl of Minerva
“Writing close to the events, it is probable that Josephus knew people who lived during the time of Herod.”
Herod died in 4 BC.
Josephus wrote his books from around 75 to 99 AD.
Not as close as you make out.
Many scholars question the new testament writers as being too long after Jesus Christ but they were a lot closer in time to Him than Josephus was to Herod.
BaggieJonathan | 09.05.07 – 10:55 am
Herod died in 4 BC
If he did, then he couldn’t have ordered the massacre of the innocents, which took place after the birth of Christ.
Just as a historian I prefer the authority of Josephus to that of a supply-teacher, as a Christian I prefer the testimony of St Matthew’s Gospel to yours.
The best estimates I’ve seen show Josephus born 3 to 4 years after the Crucifixion.
Jesus Christ was 33 at the time of his death.
That means that anyone 37 or older at the time of Josephus’s birth – grandparents, neighbours, family friends – lived during the time of Herod.
None of this can be precisely proven – but my general point – that Josephus, writing a generation afterwards – much in the same way as contemporary historians writing about WWII – is a surer guide than your sheikhy Dutchman.
BBC Article now changed!!!
(And it’s not a stealth edit!!)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6637507.stm
“The tape includes a demand for the release of Muslim prisoners in British jails, and readings from the Koran.”
There is a section entitled “Specific demand”
Add quite a bit on the background of Jaish Al-Islam
BaggieJonathan | 09.05.07 – 10:47 am
I said Herod had no Jewish blood, that is he was not of the Jewish race.
There is no such thing as a ‘Jewish race’ and there never has been.
A Jewish people, yes. A Jewish nation, yes. Alleles common among Jews, yes. A Jewish race, no.
Plenty of Arabs became Jews. There was even a Jewish king ruling in Yemen.
Abraham himself came from Ur of the Chaldees. What ‘race’ does that make him? (Don’t go there!)
If anybody’s interested Robert Spencer is on the Dennis Miller Show today between 3 and 4pm UK time.
http://dennismillerradio.com/site
A Jewish people, yes. A Jewish nation, yes. Alleles common among Jews, yes. A Jewish race, no.
Owl of Minerva | 09.05.07 – 12:25 pm
Exactly.
It’s clear these people belong to the Jewish nation, but what race are they?
Tuesday 8 May 2007 20:00-20:40 (Radio 4 FM)
Repeated: Sunday 13 May 2007 17:00-17:40 (Radio 4 FM)
Turning Right
In the aftermath of the local elections, Gerry Northam looks at the rise of the far right and investigates its claims to Christian roots and respectability. He also asks why a recent nationwide poll revealed that a high percentage said they would consider voting BNP in the next General Election.
The track record of the BBC and its demonising of this British political party is well known. Remember it sent in undercover reporters for its programme The Secret Agent (2004), the broadcasting of which and cooperation with the CPS led to two (sic) highly publicised “race-hate” trials against its chairman, Nick Griffin, for something he said at a private political meeting. I listened with interest to the latest journalistic attempt to “reveal” what the party was all about, and, if it was now “sincere” about democracy.
Did the programme succeed? Could such a programme be open to charges of bias?
Oh well, we had the usual Labour councillors spitting bile, Searchlight NGOs screaming charges of ‘Anti-Semitism’ , lefty university professors assuring us that as a party they will always remain “marginal” unlike mainstream European parties (just how this view tallies with the opening part of the programme and the charming English middle class voices interviewed still remains a political mystery)
Oh yes, hot from the Today programme, and its Thought for the Day slot, His Lordship, Bishop Tom Butler, formerly Bishop of Leicester “so I know all about the wonderful contribution that Asians make to British society, etc.” all queuing up with their soundbites to trash the party and minimise their importance or role in current British Politics. For some reason Gerry Northam even decided to include Ingawhat Bungawala from the MCB- I was astonished to learn that he did not approve of this party, and had never voted for them at the ballot box. Interesting though to hear him acknowledge that the threat of Islam was perceived greater than the far right.
In addition to the above, this was interspaced with the BBC journalist acting as if he worked for the CRB. I suppose we should be thankful that the indignant tones adopted by Gerry concerning past criminal records (something he discovered on Searchlight’s website) now include the truly shocking charges of alleged domestic violence and not assisting the police with their enquiries. And worst of all, BNP councillors not attending day-time training sessions on how to become “good councillors”– this lamentable fact put forward as a reply to similar odious charges of negligence from another “councillor”(we were not told which party he belonged to though!) and then repeated again by the BBC journalist directly to their chairman…
“Why are your councillors not attending training sessions?”
That the reply included the frank admission, yes we admit this is true because all the said councillors had day jobs, may have left the impression in many listeners minds that this questioning was rather pathetic indeed.
I don’t know about others but this level of BBC journalism I find rather sad, and reveals such astonishing bias. Would not an attempt to broadly look at the manifesto of this party have been a better route to take? Economic policies?
Apart from the religious nut who has a Christian organisation affiliated to the party, who began talking about Adam and the Tower of Babel from the OT to underpin his ideas on multiculturalism, when BNP spokesmen were given the opportunity to air their views, it was momentarily interesting, and very much against the current. Very unusual on the BBC to hear the proposition put forward that “The far right in England today is actually Islamism” without any hysterical “Oh no it isn’t” counter-claims. One would have thought that a BBC programme called “Turning Right” would have reacted to such a claim, in that it would appear to have pulled the journalist rug from beneath their feet, but Gerry kept quite.
The programme ended with the chairman of the party, NG thinking that 2040 could actually be the BNPs year. The BBC journalist was clearly taken aback that he was thinking so far ahead, and that he was not really interested in the next General election and possible results. Instead he spoke of a recent report made by Rear Admiral Chris Parry, head of the MoD’s Development, Concepts & Doctrine Centre, and briefly addressed his predictions of a civil war, due to the increased Islamification of Europe. The idea of Europe collapsing like the former Roman Empire was also mentioned.
After Panorama’s report from Blackburn the other day it might be earlier than we all think.
Compare & Contrast:
BBC:
Palestinian growth ‘obstructed’
Economic progress in the Palestinian territories will continue to be stunted as long as restrictions on movement there remain, the World Bank has said.
Half of the West Bank is closed to ordinary Palestinians, a Bank report says, hindering trade and commerce.
Ynetnews:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3397470,00.html
In an attempt to alleviate the despair on the Palestinian street, the District Coordination and Liaison Administration at the Erez crossing between Israel and Gaza is making an effort to redirect the citizens away from terrorism.
Colonel Nir Peres, head of the administration explained: “During the last few months, owing to steady activity at the Karni crossing, record quantities of strawberries and flowers have been exported from the Strip. This means that thousands of Palestinians have been working and not looking for an alternative in terrorism.”
Promote Palestinian economy
“Our policy is clear,” he said, “We are fighting the terrorist organizations, but we are in no way at a war with the Palestinian people. We want to give the citizens the means to develop the Palestinian economy, by operating the crossings and coordinating all of the organizations that handle the matter.”
Peres expects positive results several months after the implementation of the policy. Over the last few months there has been an obvious increase in the quantities of raw materials entering the Strip and in the amount of furniture, textile and other products coming out from there.
The security establishment believes that a 2.2 percent decline in Palestinian unemployment has even influenced the scope of Qassam launchers.
…
The administration rejected Palestinian claims that there is a humanitarian crisis in the Strip as a result of Israel’s actions. “After the disengagement, there is a Palestinian Authority which is the responsible body. We do not determine the quantities of goods that are imported or exported, and we do not involve ourselves in internal matters,” he said.
“Occasionally, due to security considerations, when there are attempted attacks at the crossings • and there have been quite a few terrorist attacks at the border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip • we close them temporarily,” explained Col. Peres.
At a recent High Court of Justice session regarding a petition filed by several organizations against the security establishment, Col. Peres claimed that January 2007 saw a 72 percent increase in imports into the Strip compared to the same time in 2006 and that exports had increased by 24 percent.
Accentuating the negative about Israel, ignoring the positive – it’s what we do!
Further to my last comment:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6638241.stm
Washington recently put forward proposals to lift roadblocks in the West Bank and improve access to Gaza but these met with a muted response from both sides.
Not so “muted” from one side:
Hamas, PRC say will act to torpedo new U.S. benchmarks for Israel, PA
A Hamas spokesman in Gaza said Saturday the group rejects a new U.S. benchmark document detailing actions for both Israel and the Palestinian Authority to implement in the coming months.
“The American plan is rejected and we will work to make it fail by any means and by all means,” said Fawzi Baroum, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza, echoing comments by Hamas’ political leader Khaled Meshal.
The militant group Popular Resistance Committees also rejected the document. “The U.S. plan does not serve our people’s interests,” said PRC spokesman Abu Abeer on Saturday, vowing that “the [PRC] will work to make it fail.”
The Damascus-based leader is the main powerbroker in Hamas
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/2733274257919845688/#340248
Owl of Minerva
This is getting way off topic for this site so I will make this my last comment on here about this, if you wish to continue it I suggest we post elsewhere.
I think the biblical definition of the Jewish race is the descendants of Judah (or more strictly speaking Judah and Benjamin). If you prefer to use the epithet people then do so. Abraham was not a descendant of Judah so not a Jew. I’m not clear what you are arguing about for that.
Converting to the Jewish faith when not of the children of Israel made you a proselyte, not a Jew.
The taking of dates b.c. and a.d. was made with an error.
Nothing to do with the bible but a human ‘secular’ 6th century error.
Jesus Christ was likely born in 6 bc.
The gospel of Matthew does not mention any dates.
Therefore he could have ordered (and I believe did order) the massacre of the innocents.
Jesus Christ may have been 33 at the time of his death. The truth is we dont know his exact age.
Luke 3:23 says he was about 30 at the start of his ministry, but ‘about’ can cover quite a range. John 8:57 says he was not yet 50.
As a Christian I prefer to go with what scripture says not what you claim it says.
Re Monday’s Panorama
Alan
It was noticeable that the programme presenter, Vivian White, found himself having to accept the description of the two main human groups in Blackburn as ‘white’ and ‘Muslim’.(This sounds like a mixture of racial and religious classification to me. Al Beeb types scold mere mortals on this site for such transgressions.)
Alan, I too found this insistence on “white” extremely irritable, clearly they won’t countenance any admixture of religion such as Christian whites, and won’t say secularized whites. We were told about where the Asian Muslims came from (Pakistan, Bengladesh) It really is astonishing how Al Beeb can turn somersaults in the air to describe the ethnic & religious composition of the “British Asians” but refrains from doing so amongst the “whites”. Why exactly is that? Any explanations?
Why not some statistics on the number of churches in Blackburn, or the percentages of the actual church-going? Is it because being English was not included in the national census? It would have been nice to have learnt about the ethnic composition of the “whites.” Were they mostly English? How many Scottish, or Welsh, and were there some Irish living there?
The introduction to Panorama also set the confused geographical tone: it was about “Muslims & whites in one northern community” Where could this community be I wonder? Could they be “English” whites? Could this be an “English” northern community? Could this be happening in “England”? The BBC wasn’t very keen on telling us.
I noticed how the white working class were attacked again and we concentrated on the issue of pubs having to close down. An amazing interview with a publican the journalist almost twisting a knife into her about why she originally dared to take on managing such a pub in an area rapidly approaching a tipping point, becoming increasingly segregated, and where her “white” customers were vanishing. A less politically correct term for “White fright” would be ethnically cleansed. Rather than pubs, it would have been interesting to learn how many Churches were closing, and being turned into Mosques or Muslim community centres according to the same logic.
I noticed that Jack Straw being interviewed spoke openly of the ethnicity referring to people in his constituency “who want English neighbours” English neighbours? So this northern community of whites is in England then! And these whites are, in all probability “English” after all. Thanks Jack for reminding us. How strange the BBC duck and dive like this and prefer to call it a “Northern community”.
But why is it that the Asians can be called Muslims but the Whites are not described according to their religion. Surely this is terrible bias? Didn’t we have a recent census that showed the percentage (in the 70% range) of those who still considered themselves as Christian? One can only presume that this reluctance to specify “whites” according to their religion part of the BBCs well known bias against Christianity.
Panorama was a truly deeply depressing programme. I did wonder if it would wake up a few people but probably very few as I noticed that it clashed with Coronation Street, so I doubt many working class people (even in Blackburn) were watching it. Instead looking at unreal and fanciful images of multiculturalism.
The comments by Canon Chris Chivers, who had previously worked in South Africa, that the situation in Blackburn was far worse than anything he had seen in post Apartheid South Africa, were chilling. Symbolic too, that the only time we saw a church in Blackburn was when it was being filled by Muslim school-children and a veiled Muslim woman ordering her children to “sit and talk and draw” with “whites”.
Did anybody notice how the BBC journalist slipped in the phrase “separation led to riots” conveniently explaining away the English Northern Riots of 2001. Strange, I thought it had something to do with those violent Muslims rioting wearing Bin Laden T-shirts. So it was only a feeling of separation that really led them to fire-bomb an English pub and Working-Mens Club, with pensioners, women and children inside at the time. It was a sentiment of separation that led to all that Hamas graffiti left on the walls of those English towns where the riots happened?
Were they mostly English? How many Scottish, or Welsh, and were there some Irish living there?
john | 09.05.07 – 2:44 pm
Or West Indians?
Must we assume that there are no black British Christians in Blackburn, or elsewhere in the UK?
BaggieJonathan | 09.05.07 – 2:04 pm
I think the biblical definition of the Jewish race is the descendants of Judah (or more strictly speaking Judah and Benjamin). If you prefer to use the epithet people then do so. Abraham was not a descendant of Judah so not a Jew. I’m not clear what you are arguing about for that.
Where to begin?
Abraham was the founding patriarch. It was with Abraham that God made his initial covenant and it was to Abraham that the promised land was first promised.
Abraham was not a descendant of Judah so not a Jew
No Abraham wasn’t a descendant of Judah. Judah was one of the great-grandsons of Abraham.
Isaac was the son of Abraham. Jacob was the son of Isaac. Judah was one of the sons of Jacob.
the Jewish race is the descendants of Judah (or more strictly speaking Judah and Benjamin).
Jacob fathered 12 sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph and Benjamin. They are the ancestors of the tribes of Israel, and the ones after whom the tribes are named.
In my book, Reuben’s descendant is a Jew. Levi’s is most certainly a Jew. Not in yours, it seems.
Converting to the Jewish faith when not of the children of Israel made you a proselyte, not a Jew.
A righteous proselyte (circumcised, law-abiding, observant) was regarded as a full member of the Jewish people. Descendants of proselytes were (including Herod) Jews.
The gospel of Matthew does not mention any dates.
I really don’t need to say anything about that piece of idiocy, do I?
I will make this my last comment on here about this
Good. You’d do better to spend the time reading. Let’s leave it there.
Joe wrote:-
Star Trek was supposed to be set in a Utopian society where sexism/racism etc was consigned to history.
What would be Utopian about that?
Islam is pretty unequivocally in favour of sexism. A society that did not tolerate sexism would presumably therefore be one that had previously exterminated all traces of Islam.
As for racism, it’s really only western Europe and the Americas that consider racism to be a bad thing. The other 5 billion people on the planet are OK with it. A society that did not tolerate racism would presumably have destroyed all traces of today’s Japanese, Indian, African, and Chinese cultural attitudes.
The wise and enlightened western liberal anti-racist feminist recognises that this extirpation is necessary, because those people are all backward, benighted, swarthy savages whose crappy inferior “culture” we can well do without.
What it comes down to is that to achieve this “utopia” you’d have to liquidate either
1/ all the queers or
2/ all the Muslims.
I’m not too familiar with Star Trek, but I guess, in the backstory, it’s the Muslims who got vernichtet?
“Two hand grenades have gone off in the Somali capital, Mogadishu, where government soldiers were confiscating and burning face veils worn by women.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6638841.stm
What are we to believe that two hand grenades blew themselves up in protest?
Sloppy journalism BBC.
As Hamas grooms next generation of killers, the world must wake up and stop pacifying foes
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/col/goodwin/index.html
More terror arrests:
“Both West Midlands and West Yorkshire forces said they were keeping the affected local communities informed.”
Would that be the local ‘Muslim’ communities?
I would think that keeping ANYONE, in any community informed about your actions regarding terror arrests is a big mistake, even if you are watching the airports to catch the rats escaping.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/6637735.stm
Party Affiliation?
Biodegradable | 09.05.07 – 2:57 pm
Must we assume that there are no black British Christians in Blackburn?
Not many.
106 Black Caribbeans
183 Black Africans
according to the 2001 census.
That’s out of a total of 138,000 inhabitants.
..and the proportions of people from the Chinese, White Irish, White Other and Other ethnic groups are well below the national average.
http://www.cre.gov.uk/diversity/map/northwest/blackburn.html
Were they mostly English? How many Scottish, or Welsh, and were there some Irish living there?
john | 09.05.07 – 2:44 pm
This is another example of bbc bias.
The bbc is biased against scotland, northern ireland and wales even though they force a “licence” from us.
They cannot permit a debate on multiculturalism because they know they will lose it. They know that multiculturalism implies the death of the host culture because.. Huh. Changing the demographic with a 50% random mix of foreigners implies an existential change does it not?
London and the Pennines towns ceased to be English cities quite some time ago and the likes of Ken Livingston want to export this to the rest of Britain and Europe. For some mysterious reason – mainly that people arn’t all one and the same – we wouldn’t agree to that.
John Reith | 09.05.07 – 4:30 pm
Thank you for your efforts in researching that question for me. However, it was, as many of our questions are, rhetorical.
My complete question was:
Must we assume that there are no black British Christians in Blackburn, or elsewhere in the UK?
My point being that, as others have pointed out, it is not an issue of Muslim versus White, it is an issue of Muslim versus everybody else.
Lord Reith:
As your lordship seems to be paying attention today, would you care to comment on the BBC reporting that both the “Palestinians” and Israel gave a “muted response” to Washington’s suggestion, in the light of my comment here?
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/3253162701720140571/?a=18104#348151
Please explain how the BBC can possibly suggest that both sides’ responses were comparable given Hamas’s declaration that it would actively “work to make it fail by any means and by all means”.
Why did the BBC not report this reaction from Hamas instead of, as usual, attempting to lay the blame on Israel for any failure to work towards peace?
Compare and contrast.
BBC:
AU spokesman Capt Paddy Ankunda told the BBC 106 anti-tank mines, 48 rocket-propelled grenades, 460 hand grenades and other small arms were seized on Wednesday morning.
He accused insurgent groups fighting government and Ethiopian forces of burying the weapons.
Meanwhile, Ethiopian commanders officially handed over weapons they have so far seized in Mogadishu at a ceremony on Wednesday morning.
Somali’s chief police assured people the weapons would be in safe hands until they are given to the army.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6638841.stm
Reuters:
As part of a security drive in the gun-infested city, government and Ethiopian troops handed African peacekeepers weapons, including anti-tank mines and rocket-propelled grenades, they say were seized from an insurgent stronghold.
National police boss Abdi Hassan Awale said the weapons were unearthed at a Koranic school in northern Mogadishu.
“For children to be taught in a house with all these weapons buried underneath it, is against our religion,” he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070509/wl_nm/somalia_conflict_dc
BaggieJonathan: “The gospel of Matthew does not mention any dates.”
Owl of Minerva: “I really don’t need to say anything about that piece of idiocy, do I?”
Oh go on, please? I know it’s off topic, but I’m curious as to what part the idiocy refers to.
According to the statistics there are 87,001 Christians in Blackburn &
26, 674 Muslims.
As there are 107,124 “Whites” I would have thought that it doesnt take too much thinking from BBC journalists to grasp the fact that the majority of “whites” are in fact Christian.
Contrast this fact with the readiness of the BBC use of the term “Asian Muslims” when there are actually more followers of the Hindu religion in Blackburn.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/00ex.asp
Sorry my mistake above the number of Hindus is very small in Blackburn:
There are 15,000 Indians and 12,000 Pakistanis living in Blackburn
Clearly the majority living there are Indian Muslims?
Clearly the majority living there are Indian Muslims?
john | 09.05.07 – 5:31 pm
I would guess that Indians are more likely to be Hindus.
mick in the uk:
More terror arrests:
“Both West Midlands and West Yorkshire forces said they were keeping the affected local communities informed.”
Would that be the local ‘Muslim’ communities?
I noticed that it was reported on the BBC that at one of the last major terrorist arrests, the police rather than going in with their own vehicles, hired vans and cars that ‘veiled’ the fact that they were in fact the police. No doubt all part of what they consider good community relations. Pathetic really. Just goes to show how precarious things really are.
I would guess that Indians are more likely to be Hindus.
Biodegradable | 09.05.07 – 5:36 pm |
Or maybe they are from Kashmir? Paul Wells was from Blackburn
Owl of Minerva:
I know I said no more comments but I have to make one last reply.
1. So its agreed Abraham is not a Jew. He is perhaps the first Hebrew.
2. So its agreed Abraham is not a Jew.
3. 12 tribes, 2 judah, 10 israel.
1 Kings 12: 20-21
20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.
21 And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon.
and
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9071659/Ten-Lost-Tribes-of-Israel
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes
OK, the Levites did not have their own land, but they were mostly in Judah rather than Israel, Joseph was counted as two tribes so the land was still divided into 12.
So yes they can be Jews, I stand corrected, I am not too big to admit that was an erroneous slip of the tongue/typing.
I cannot find any biblical basis for numbering Reuben with Judah, perhaps you can?
4. Actually there are two types of proselyte.
We seem to have our wires crossed on this one.
A resident proselyte was and is not considered a full jew – to whom I was referring, they were not recognised as full jews unless they had undegone a very specific set of acts of conversion, but also see below.
A righteous proselyte is now generally considered a full jew – to whom you were referring, however over history even this was much more disputed.
One of the acts of full conversion was to sacrifice at the temple of Jerusalem so some argue there is no such thing as a righteous proselyte, most modern judaism disagrees with this.
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Proselyte
5. You specifically and offensively claimed that St Matthew’s gospel backed your argument for the date and mine by implication was at odds with scripture.
I had no choice but to make it clear that was certainly not so.
I won’t stoop to reply to the stupid name calling.
6. I had intended my last post to be my last comment on this and whatever the provocation this time it certainly is.
Perhaps we will just need to agree to disagree and go with God.
I apologise to all for how much space this has already taken up on this blog as it is way off topic.
Or maybe they are from Kashmir? Paul Wells was from Blackburn
john | 09.05.07 – 5:43 pm
Could be.
Socialism is Necrotizing wrote:
“Party affiliation?”
about the following article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/northamptonshire/6637735.stm
In fairness, they do eventually get around to mentioning that Keogh worked for “anti-war Labour MP Mr Clarke”. And as a civil servant or “MP researcher”, they aren’t technically supposed to have an official party affiliation in those capacities, are they? Of course it takes a while for them to get around to telling us for whom the researcher worked.
What’s really crap about this article is the bit at the end where our malleable little minds are prepared to side with the convicted defendents. First, O’Connor’s solicitor tells us that the war in Iraq “the most controversial foreign affairs involvement of this country since Suez 50 years ago”. Since it is assumed that the average BBC viewer has the history knowledge of an overripe tomato, no problem there, and the mood is set. Then O’Connor is quoted as to how he had never been “so worried and so fearful” as when he got his hands on the document in question.
Next we must listen to Keogh’s QC saying how Keogh passed the document to an anti-war Labour MP as an act of conscience, and with no political motives whatsoever. Now the violins come out and we are told that even though Keogh acted “misguidedly, and he did so in a way which was likely to cause damage,” he (*sniff*) would now lose his job “and good character.” It was all down to the totally random chance that Keogh happened to work for an anti-War MP. Never mind that Keogh’s barrister also said that “his client had wanted to seek to reveal the truth of what was happening in Iraq while others were trying to conceal that truth.”
Goodness gracious me, BBC (wiping away tears), whatever are we to think?
David Preiser writes:
“Goodness gracious me, BBC (wiping away tears), whatever are we to think?”
As BBC consumers? Why, we’re not supposed to think at all!
Hardly a day passes without further evidence of the concerted violent Islamic jihad against us infidels in the UK.
Today is no different in this respect: 4 more arrests re:7/7 murders.
But how does Al Beeb (and its like-minded colleagues at Al Guardian) regard all this? By and large: ‘it’s just a few extremists…’ Really?
And how many liberal, politically correct Al Beeb types are really studying Islam SERIOUSLY these days, and not just taking in bits of Karen Armstrong’s filtered Mary Poppins’ version?
For a start, I recommend the high quality arguments of Hugh Fitzgerald
and his long scholarly piece at Jihadwatch:
“Fitzgerald: Spengler, Spencer, Armstrong and Adonis”
http://www.jihadwatch.org (8 May, scroll down).
David Prieser
Just a thought: is Keogh’s barrister, Rex Tedd QC, any relation to the “Andy Tedd” who used to appear in these threads shoulder to shoulder with john reith? If he is, it’s no coincidence that both defend the indefensible (although, sometimes, a barrister has no alternative).
john | 09.05.07 – 2:44 pm
I must say I found your reaction to Monday’s Panorama very peculiar.
But you raise a number of questions and I will answer them.
…the description of the two main human groups in Blackburn as ‘white’ and ‘Muslim’…
The subject of the programme was the phenomenon of social and geographical segregation in the town. The programme showed that what was at the root of this was a particular combination of religious, ethnic and cultural factors.
Reduced to a simple formula this was: Islam + the cultural codes pertaining to Pakistan and Bangladesh ….
The specific problem isn’t found where Indian Hindus or Turkish Muslims live • they tend to integrate rather more. It is the combination of keeping up the dress and the social attitudes (position of women in society/arranged marriage/veil etc) with Islamic faith that accounts for it.
In Blackburn, other groups (e.g. Blacks, Chinese, White Irish) barely figure. But two wards in the town (Bastwell and Shear Brow) have the highest concentrations of Muslims in the UK.
A key theme of the programme ‘white flight’ • the propensity of existing residents to leave a particular neighbourhood once Muslim numbers reach a critical mass and the character of the area changed.
So it absolutely made sense to talk about Muslims and Whites • these are the relevant groups.
the confused geographical tone: it was about “Muslims & whites in one northern community” Where could this community be I wonder? Could they be “English” whites? Could this be an “English” northern community? Could this be happening in “England”?
Most people know that Blackburn, Lancashire is in England. They don’t need…or want….everything spelled out.
However, you seem to have a fetish about the word ‘English’. The problem for the BBC is that it is a rather imprecise term • our civic identity (what’s on our passports) being British.
English can be used as an ‘ethnic’ label • helpful in distinguishing between English, Scots, Welsh and Irish.
But what about the c 50% of Blackburn’s Muslims who were born in Lancashire?
Are they ‘English’ as well as being British? Who decides?
Why not some statistics on the number of churches in Blackburn, or the percentages of the actual church-going?
What for? The church-going habits of the local Christians have no relevance to the issue. (For what it’s worth • church attendance in Blackburn is very slightly higher than in most comparable towns.)
It would have been nice to have learnt about the ethnic composition of the “whites.” Were they mostly English? How many Scottish, or Welsh…?
Again, completely irrelevant. Panorama only has 30 mins. Why waste time on things that have nothing to do with the story?
An amazing interview with a publican
This is relevant • pubs are part of the character of neighbourhoods. Islam bans alcohol. As Muslims become a majority, pubs shut. The character of the district changes. But you don’t want that in the programme. Perverse or what?
One can only presume that this reluctance to specify “whites” according to their religion part of the BBC’s well known bias against Christianity.
Oh grow up. The BBC has no bias against Christianity. It is the only major media company that broadcasts hours of Christian prayer and worship. It’s DG and his deputy are practising Catholics. It is constantly being attacked by the National Secular Society for doing too much religious programming.
Lord Reith cherry picking which issues he’ll address.
Would you like to comment on this JR?
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patrickcrozier/3253162701720140571/#348171
Reith is a busted flush, He gets beat down every time he comes here…..
I’m surprised the Beeb have not picked another scribe to come try his hand here, for Reith has been utterly ineffectual, and indeed has pushed even more people away from the BBCs line of thinking…..
Just laugh at him…..thats what the rest of us do…much like one laughs at a child whose face is covered with chocolate, and whose arm is stuck in the cookie jar up to its elbow…who claims that he did not pinch any biccies….lol.
Saddly…it’s embarrasing behaviour in an “adult” like Reith. I dare say he will move on before long…it can’t be nice work, having to spread stinky and obvious bullshit for a living…
Never know..maybe Reith thinks it’s cool to bury kids up to their necks, and throw stones at them until they are dead…for this is what he defends when he comes here, and defends the BBCs utterly embarassing arselicking of Islam……..
Personal attacks are countar-productive.
Umbongo,
I have no idea if there’s a relation. But surely if a QC is just assigned, not hired, to defend someone to the utmost of his ability, that duty doesn’t generally extend to post-conviction press spin, does it? Unless he’s sympathetic to the cause, of course.
I guess a QC should be expected to try to portray his client to the press as misguided rather than a subversive (although I fail to see how that will help mitigate sentencing, so that’s nothing to do with what he’s been assigned to do, as he works for Her Majesty and is not there to handle his client’s public image after conviction), but he went way beyond that in his statements.
Oh, wait. Maybe he is related.
While Al-Beeb ensures we know that Israeli Arabs are discriminated against and treated as second class citizens in Israel, they sometimes mysteriously forget to tell us that certain “Israelis” are in fact Arabs.
Israeli jailed for helping bomber
An Israeli has been sentenced to seven years in jail for helping a Palestinian suicide bomber who killed one person and injured 55 in Tel Aviv in 2002.
Islam Badir was convicted of manslaughter and causing grievous harm for driving the bomber from Kafr Qassem to Petah Tikva, a town near Tel Aviv.
“Islam Badir”, a nice Yiddishe name if ever I saw one, NOT.
Re. the_camp_commandant: I love it!
I guess it was a utopian society for those living in it, but they had got rid of crime, war, disease etc.
They didnt have a problem with having women commanders, thats all.
I love though that Islam somehow came into it!
The BBC and do as I say and not as I do;
When should a secret not be a secret?
By Chris Summers
BBC News
Two men have been convicted of breaking the Official Secrets Act by leaking a confidential memo between President Bush and Tony Blair. The content of the memo has never officially been made public.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6639947.stm
Oh how the BBC bitches about state secrets even going so far as to promote this;
If the state says it’s not in the public interest to know then there is always a window for corruption and abuse of the system
Julie-Ann Davies
Campaign for the Reform of the Official Secrets Act
Then we have this about the BBC;
BBC asks court to block Israel
report
The BBC went to the High Court today in an attempt to overturn a ruling that a member of the public has the right under freedom of information laws to see an internal report on its Middle East coverage.
Critics of the BBC want to know if the Balen Report, believed to run to 20,000 words, includes evidence of bias against Israel in news programming.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article1575543.ece
It seems what’s good for the BBC isn’t good enough for the defence of the relm.
Is “J” short for “Jamil”, “Jihad”, “Jamal” or what?
John Reith
“Oh grow up. The BBC has no bias against Christianity. It is the only major media company that broadcasts hours of Christian prayer and worship.”
Songs of praise and the religion-lite “heaven and earth show” ? hardly hours and it IS in the BBC charter that they have to provide for christian broadcasting on Sunday.
Was it also the BBC itself that admits that members of its staff would have no objection to seeing a bible thrown into a dustbin but not a Koran .As for the militant Athiests at the N.S.S. – they share the same objectives as STalin (though not the methods) i.e. to Eliminate religion (particularly Christianity) from the public sphere – any mention of Jesus would send them running for the green ink
BBC = Shoddy Science
“There are 100 million nerve cells in the brain, which each have 10,000 connections, called synapses, which link to other nerves cells.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6623695.stm
“Each of the 10^12 (trillion) neurons (including glial cells) has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 10^16 synapses (10 quadrillion). This number declines with age, stabilizing by adulthood. Estimates vary for an adult, ranging from 10^15 to 5 x 10^15 synapses (1 to 5 quadrillion)”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuron
That’s what happens when you recruit exclusively from the left/arts community.
Chaps and chapesses
Must we assume that there are no black British Christians in Blackburn, or elsewhere in the UK?
Biodegradable | 09.05.07 – 2:57 pm
As a long time lurker , I need to mention I grew up in East Lancashire ( Blackburn and Burnley and a few places besides).
I grew up fully integrated with Asian Christians, Asian Buddhists, Asian of no perceivable religion, and Africans (a very few).
It is a testament to their graciousness that decades later, and living in London I’m still friends with these people of various races and beliefs.
Oddly we were never integrated to the same extent with Muslims.
Clearly I must have been one of the “white” community and no doubt to the BBC view racist.