As has been pointed out, Russia has just invaded Georgia with 150 tanks rolling across the border. Sky has it as the lead story – the BBC has the Olympic opening ceremony as its lead story. World class broadcasting, eh? If you want news, best avoid the Olympic broadcaster. Clearly given the HUGE investment that the BBC has made with OUR money, viewers are going to have the Olympics shoved down their throat, like it or not, invasions or otherwise.
WHAT’S AN INVASION BETWEEN FRIENDS?
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Peter wrote: The Russian propaganda machine is in full flow on the blogs and in the papers.
Yes that is very true. Go over to the Times and look for any articles on this issue. The number of responses from Russia is quite amazing.
“One can quite easily see the absurdity & sheer wrongness of NATO supporting Kosovo against the Serbs – without needing automatically to throw your weight behind the Russians here.
Bob | 10.08.08 – 4:29 pm”
I’m glad you can, but your englightened views don’t represent the general opinion here. Those who supported NATO “imperialsm” in Kosovo are stuck in this situation because the precedent was set there. It does seem to matter who supports who, since not being behind aggressive NATO actions and expansion means one could well be “Russian, Perhaps FSB or diplomatic staff? Of course your english is near perfect so you could(not saying you are)be CND/stop the war/foreign office(HM)?”
Wow! I guess I’d better get onto the NATO bandwagon. Cluster bombing civilians, and aggressive expansion onto the motherland’s border (big threat to the world Putin = Satan) is right up my street. I’d do anything to prove I’m not ex-KGB.
“Beeboids accusing Georgian troops of atrocities and had one unnamed and healthy looking unnamed and unchallenged individual tlaking about a whole nation being destroyed. There was a complete lack of evidence. NRG | 10.08.08 – 6:58 pm”
When the “pro-american” KLA ordered “refugees” to leave their homes it was ethnic cleansing. Nobody needed evidence then. Why the need for evidence now?
“Clearly this was a well planned counter-measure to any Georgian “crackdown” as the BBC quaintly put it. johnj | 10.08.08 – 7:18 pm”
The cheek of them, making contingency plans to deal with a foreign-trained army using weapons supplied by the west, on their own border. It’s an outrage I tell you. How can anyone not condemn the reds for this breach of international law??
“I’d do anything to prove I’m not ex-KGB.”
Oh,I absolutely believe you aren’t ex anything. It’s called the ФСБ, Федеральная служба безопасности; Federalnaya Slujba Bezopasnosty now.Bit of a mouthful to get on your badge.
Civilians flee the peaceful fraternal Russian Blitzkrieg. The question is why are the people of South Ossetia fleeing from their liberators ?
“The question is why are the people of South Ossetia fleeing from their liberators ?
Peter | 11.08.08 – 1:25 am”
They are not “the people of South Ossetia”. The article said “many” and interviewed two.
Maybe they feel at home among Russians the same way Serbs did when NATO troops came to Kosovo. Most of the Twenty thousand refugees will be going to Russia.
‘The cheek of them, making contingency plans to deal with a foreign-trained army using weapons supplied by the west, on their own border. It’s an outrage I tell you. How can anyone not condemn the reds for this breach of international law??
John Bull | 11.08.08 – 12:20 am | ‘
Do you honestly think that if you had just overthrown a foreign joke you’d keep buying weapons from them or be trained by them? Since there was always a certain tension with Russia why on earth would Georgia want weapons from Russia which could stop supplying them at any time? Russia weapons are frankly rubbish, except some of the aircraft and even then the avionics are not so hot compared to western standards. And as for training, look at Russian history, and indeed Russian present, they are not, in general well trained, they win (except in Afghanistan, Chechnya, the USSR states, etc., obviously) by mass attacks and by being able to take massive casualties. This is not so useful for a small country, especially if it does not want to kill a large part of its soldiery pointlessly.
So the choice is between rubbish weapons, poor training, from the only potential threat and good weapons and training from a west you want to join. Not a difficult decision really.
Oh by the way the poor Georgian Infantry are using Russian weapons supplied by the Russia, still Russia will sell weapons to anyone I suppose. Saying there where armed by the West does support the false picture you are trying to present of the poor Russian state viciously attacked by a massively armed Georgia.
If I was a Russian officer or politician I would be worried about the amount of equipment, even using Russian figures, being destroyed. This does not bode well if the best Russia can supply of men and equipment can take such losses against a very small, poorly equipped country. The thing is if Georgia does not completely back down but buys modern anti-tank, anti-shipping, and stinger anti-aircraft missiles. In that case Russian losses will mount then it could get serious. Personally I just feel sorry for all the civilians and poor bloody infantry dying for some Russian master plan.
I would have waited until my state owned energy companies had bought more of western infrastructure before I made my move because I don’t think the West will allow Russian companies to invest in the Western infrastructure anymore. This would or could reduce the west’s dependence on Russia.
The thing is in the long term Russia have won the battle but lost the war. All their new found might and power comes from supplying the west with oil and gas. If the West wants to win all it has to do is get its supplies from elsewhere. Then what would Russia do? No money = no prestige = restless population = revolution. All without any poor soul, of any side, dying.
Would you trust Russia with something as vital as your energy supplies now? I wouldn’t.
Sorry for earlier comments John Bull. We have a lot of trouble here with ignorant trolls and their ad-hominem attacks. I was mistaken. Please accept my apologies and keep up the, quite frankly, excellent discussion.
John Bull,
You didnt get my joke about being from the UK foreign office! That rules you out of being a Brit?
Well I don’t know how this conflict got started, as I can only see what is reported through the distorted prism of the press.
However, I have witnessed yet more bias from the BBC this morning. Bias towards Russia yet again.
A BBC reporter (on the Today programme) in Georgia saying that “hundreds of thousands of Russian passport holders” had been forced to flee due to the Georgian aggression, forcing the Russian to respond because of their constitution.
This was reported as fact, without qualification. “hundreds of thousands” from a population of around 70 thousand?
Regardless of how this all started, Russia is now going beyond what is required to force an issue in South Ossetia. This is becoming increasingly about keeping the satellite states in the Soviet sphere of influence.
I personally am against the extension of NATO to the borders of Russia. What should happen is a third group of east european countries should form themselves into a balance or buffer between the two cold war factions.
And I don’t refer to the Russian puppet group that they have set up.
NRG objects “Sunday news on BBC callled occupying Russian troops “peacekeepers” (strange contrast to Beeboids views of US / UK troops in Iraq)”. Now my memory may be playing up but I think the BBC have indeed called troops in Iraq “peacekeepers” & actively do not refer to them as occupiers. Not having heard that particular soundbite I cannot know for sure but it may be that they were refering to the Russian forces who were previously there, at the request of both parties, as paeacekeeprs – 10 of whom were killed in the Georgian attack.
David in talking of genocide I was not refering to killings in the past but to the Georgian attack now. This attack was clearly meant to be a replay of the NATO organised Krajina genocide in what is now Croatia. If one believes that genocide is wrong, even when the victims are slavic, then one must support Russia’s actions as thoroughly as one must condemn NATO for the Krajina Holocaust.
The suggestion made by somebody that Russia had cleverly waited for the Olympics before starting this requires a wulful disregard of facts. Georgia started it & they clearly deliberately waited till Putin was in Beojing to slow the Russian reaction.
It may be possible to criticise Russia over this as well as criticising NATO’s assistence to the (ex-)Nazis in Croatia, Bosnia & Kosovo. It is not ethicly possible to criticise them more strongly than one criticised NATO.
The world is a much more dangerous place because NATO broke treaties, destroyed the rule of international law & subverted borders. If this small war convinces us that we would all be better off if we respected the rule of law & ceaase to support genocide it may turn out to be a good thing.
So when we are going to see Al Beeb and other MSM bleating about the Russian attack being out of “proportion”?
The double standards by the MSM and supporters of Mother Russia are astounding!
Where are all the anti-war protestors (or are they all still in Kent protesting over some coal powered power stations?)? Why arent we seeing a mass world wide movement from the same morons who have acted like traitors every day since 2003 (and earlier)?
Russia has engineered this situation and wont stop until they have completely annexed Ossetia and asserted their domination over the area.
And mean while, the anti-war crowd sits at home silently, cursing GW and watching on with glee as innocent Gorgians are murdered by Russian forces.
Mailman
This link from the WSJ will help fill in the BBC’s ‘coverage’; it’s a safe bet that Frei, for example, won’t deem it newsworthy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121841306186328421.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries
…Saakashvili, the author, is president of Georgia.
Plenty in the article to turn every Euroweenie crimson with shame. The only good news: the stalling, the denial, the shuffling display of EU weakness (again) won’t be forgotten by any of Russia’s neighbors, starting w/ the Baltic states you all like to pretend are ‘chaps just like us.’
Where, one wonders, is Barroso? Or those bellicose foreign ministers from Liechtenstein and Belgium? How ’bout the great and good Brown Gordon and Brown Malloch? Merkel? Anyone? Nothing, except maybe a slow ripple above the silence, the deafening sound of wet whimpers and silent screams of a continent on the edge of panic. The jig’s just about up.
Time, I think, for the Russian apologists here to punt, pout, waffle and leave.
The fraternal slaughter by Russian “Peacekeepers” goes on
“They are not “the people of South Ossetia”. The article said “many” and interviewed two. ”
If they are not,then they must be Georgians,looks like good old Russian etnis cleansing.Remember the Kulaks ?
John Bull ,I see you have a sock puppet,Firefoxx.Terribly unoriginal names you lot.
“The world is a much more dangerous place because NATO broke treaties, destroyed the rule of international law & subverted borders”
This is a variant of the old “he Devil made me do it”, NATO made me do it.
No realisation that the Russian could have shown restraint and taken the matter to the UN.No as is usual Russian diplomacy,the tanks rolled and the bombers bombed.
The black hole at the centre of this,unmentioned by the comrades and fellow travelers,is of course the strategic oil pipeline.
“If they are not,then they must be Georgians,looks like good old Russian etnis cleansing.Remember the Kulaks ?
Peter | 11.08.08 – 11:51 am”
So extending that logic you would accept that NATO ethnically cleansed Serbs from Kosovo – a bombing against civilians and an invasion you did support.
Neil Craig | Homepage | 11.08.08 – 11:00 am
The Russians are bombing Georgian pipelines and not protecting a single South Osiettan.
Your analogy fails again, because the Russians don’t agree with you either. Just because you share a common enemy doesn’t mean they think like you do.
“This link from the WSJ will help fill in the BBC’s ‘coverage’; it’s a safe bet that Frei, for example, won’t deem it newsworthy.
http://online.wsj.com/article/ SB…in_commentaries
…Saakashvili, the author, is president of Georgia. knacker | 11.08.08 – 11:42 am”
Although he consistently fails to mention that any increase in forces in Ossetia was, if anything, proportionatly far less compared to the ridiculously high increase in defence spending in Georgia, which spends forty times now what it did before Saakashvili came to power.
The official reason was that they needed the improvements to join NATO, but then they chose to attack and retake Ossetia (supposedly, according to Saakashvili, because a Russian tank crossed the border – yeah right).
You miss my point Ivan3. I don’t think Georgia should have been encouraged in its military ambitions at all – by Israeli arms, Ukrainian arms or arms from anywhere else. The above article shows his ambitions were little more than a nationalist bid to reunite the country. Even NATO will have trouble justifying that one. That’s why Saakashvili is on TV complaining that nobody is backing him up.
Incidentally the BBC gives him plenty of coverage to complain about Russian aggression and do not challenge him. Anyone care about BBC bias anymore. No?? Oh well.
John,
How does one attack a province of ones country?
Surely the rebels you seem to love are the problem here? Being armed and actively encouraged by mother russia to split from Georgie?
Anyway, this whole thing will end once Russia controls Ossetia and has levelled the rest of Georgia to the ground.
And while all that is going on, you wont hear a peep from the anti-war crowd.
Mailman
John Bull et al:
You’re starting to sweat. Spin and agitprop not working too well these days, are they? Georgia did not invade S/O. It is Georgian territory. Georgia tried to put down a rebellion incited by Russia and deliberately spread by Russia outside the S/O enclave. Probably, the Georgians should have foreseen the trap — straight out of the Sudetanland playbook no matter how often you flap the red-herring of Kosovo — but hindsight is too easy and only a fool would second-guess the guy on the ground while lotsa stuff still isn’t known. Doesn’t stop you from parroting your talking-points from the party, though, does it?
It’s already plain that Putin’s prime motive, aside from the obvious pipeline issue, was to send a violent lesson to breakaway slave republics everywhere. Sadly for you, it’ll backfire, as Russian paranoia always backfires, and there are always unintended consequences, including the obvious boost you just gave to McCain’s electability. The only real mystery is what the schoolgirls in Brussels will do, and whether the miserable EU lumpenproletariat will notice, let alone care.
You aren’t about to turn the clock back. The Soviet imperium is gone for good, and you and your creepy bag-carriers are SOL.
John Bull | 11.08.08 – 2:50 pm |
Incidentally the BBC gives him plenty of coverage to complain about Russian aggression and do not challenge him. Anyone care about BBC bias anymore. No?? Oh well.
Remember, the rule laid down upon us from Beeboids is that we must not look at one report and complain about bias if there is no opposing view or criticism. We must look at the larger picture of the BBC’s overall coverage. Which has been somewhat biased.
Will you come gloating when somebody taking Georgia’s side is given a good kicking on an upcoming news show or on the World Service (if they can rouse themselves for a few moments from their Olympic stupor, that is)?
“How does one attack a province of ones country?
…Being armed and actively encouraged by mother russia to split from Georgie?
And while all that is going on, you wont hear a peep from the anti-war crowd. mailman | 11.08.08 – 3:28 pm”
With indiscriminate shelling.
The Russian government doesn’t create the desire of Ossetians to die for their ambition to be part of Russia any more than Gordon Brown is reponsible for unionism in Northern Ireland. These issues go back a long way.
The “anti-war crowd” didn’t have much to say about NATO’s bombing of Serbia.
Let’s see who will want to invest in Gerogia and their pipeline after this.
“Remember, the rule laid down upon us from Beeboids is that we must not look at one report and complain about bias if there is no opposing view or criticism. We must look at the larger picture of the BBC’s overall coverage. Which has been somewhat biased.
Will you come gloating when somebody taking Georgia’s side is given a good kicking on an upcoming news show or on the World Service (if they can rouse themselves for a few moments from their Olympic stupor, that is)?
David Preiser (USA) | 11.08.08 – 4:16 pm”
No because that is the treatment any spokesman from either side should get. Nobody should be given a platform to vent, unchallenged by the presenter.
The BBC does not give the same airtime to Russian government spokesmen. But, hey, that’s the usual.
‘John Bull:
Although he consistently fails to mention that any increase in forces in Ossetia was, if anything, proportionatly far less compared to the ridiculously high increase in defence spending in Georgia, which spends forty times now what it did before Saakashvili came to power.
The official reason was that they needed the improvements to join NATO…..
You miss my point Ivan3. I don’t think Georgia should have been encouraged in its military ambitions at all – by Israeli arms, Ukrainian arms or arms from anywhere else.’
It would seem that Georgian defence spending was right I mean to say the massive Russian invasion would seem to prove that it was prudent to spend money to defend oneself against Russian aggression. Of course they could have disarmed completely, no doubt you would have loved that, so the new Russian empire could have been built a lot quicker, but sovereign states have the right to defend themselves.
All would be NATO states have to upgrade their military equipment as NATO requires common equipment standards, Poland, the Czech Republic had to so Georgia had to if it wanted the chance to join.
Do you honestly, truly, think that Georgia should not be encouraged in its ‘military ambitions’…that is defending itself as a democratic, western looking state against a corrupt, aggressive state which has destroyed freedom of speech, a free press, has political prisoners and murders dissenters, etc., in order to support a fascist leadership?
You keep banging on about Kosovo but tell us Bully what about the very real genocide being conducted now in Chechnya by your glorious Russian forces? Don’t they count? If they do please tell us what you are doing to stop this genocide and to liberate these innocent people, and the other would be breakaway parts of Russia, who happen to posses most of the Russian oil. I mean to say you seem to believe that areas of a country should secede from their existing states so undoubtedly you support Chechnya et al…..don’t you???
“So extending that logic you would accept that NATO ethnically cleansed Serbs from Kosovo – a bombing against civilians and an invasion you did support.”
No logic there Bull.
Now,don’t be a naughty little buller,you are simply making unfounded assertions.
Here we call it lying.
John,
Those russians you were refer to arent exactly Russians are they? They may have Russian passports BUT they arent Russians.
Indiscriminate shelling, you referring to the Russian Peace Keepers? 🙂
Face it John, Russia created this situation, it has murdered innocent Georgians and for what? To assert its control and for nothing else.
Its just a pity that useful fools like yourself are so blinded by your own hatred of the West that you cant even see the truth, even when its right in front of you.
And while this all goes on, the MSM and anti-war protesters are no where to be seen!
Mailman
“Although he consistently fails to mention that any increase in forces in Ossetia was, if anything, proportionatly far less compared to the ridiculously high increase in defence spending in Georgia, which spends forty times now what it did before Saakashvili came to power.”
Russia Georgia
Defence budget
$32,99 billion $583 million
Personnel
641,00 26,900
Main Battle Tanks
6,717 82
Armoured Personnel Carriers
6,388 139
Combat Aircraft
1,206 7 (SEVEN)
Heavy Artillery
7,550 95
That should put things into perspective.
“It would seem that Georgian defence spending was right I mean to say the massive Russian invasion would seem to prove that it was prudent to spend money to defend oneself against Russian aggression. …Do you honestly, truly, think that Georgia should not be encouraged in its ‘military ambitions’ Ivan3 | 11.08.08 – 4:35 pm”
No. Since their nationalist ambitions were clearly to retake Ossetia, reunite the country, then join NATO as one happy family – big error. Now they find themselves in a situation where they are even a liability to NATO. I’m still waiting for NATO to back up the Georgian hothead, but they’re not coming to his rescue so he takes to the air on TV stations around the world whining. This is what happens when you assist nutters with the military aims.
“is defending itself as a democratic, western looking state against a corrupt, aggressive state which has destroyed freedom of speech, a free press, has political prisoners and murders dissenters, etc., in order to support a fascist leadership?”
Really so you have forgotten about the state of emergency where Saakashvili had his special forces push news presenters around, take channels off the air, and confiscate their equipment. Maybe it was the blind eye of the west to such behaviour which encouraged his delusions of grandeur.
I don’t support any human rights abuses. The hypocrisy on here belongs to yourself and others who use the dead, the dying, and the misplaced (the ones they acknowledge) only as propaganda tools in their equally unprincipled arguments.
Peter, find something coherent to say. You come across as a heckling schoolboy on the sideline.
Putin installs a puppet patsy while keeping real power, then goes on a millitary advevture to seize a competing energy highway, with me so far? If it fails the puppet patsy takes the fall for Putin! Russia is crafty but too greedy and its looking like a ‘bridge to far’ type deal for the motherland? just heard from an American friend that the B2/B52 squadrons are being prepared with Cruise missiles and 2000lbrs and all leaves cancelled, this might be just SOPs but somethings up for sure. When a US battle group moves upto striking range you can be sure that the US means business and the motherland is no match for uncle Sams battle kit, Ivan will be destroyed.
If Russia had any sense it would stop now while its ahead, but then again when did Russia ever show common sense?
Poor old Ivan on the ground is in for a ‘shock’N’awe stlye wakeup call?
A B52 can carry a dozen odd cruise and stay well out of range of the Russian airforce and the B2 stealth can carry the latest 2000lb smart bombs, anyone thinking that the US cannot hit back is living in cloud cuckoo land!
John Bull,
Steady on chum! If you are banking on the US standing by twiddling its thumbs while Putin takes Georgia, then think again.
You tweak the tigers tail at your peril, uncle Sam has the kit make make Ivan run for hills and is even now dusting off its ‘arsenal of democracy’, pride comes before a fall is the old saying and spitting in Uncle Sams face is not a wise move BUT I have to give credit where its due, you have run rings around the EU but the US is a whole different ball game!
“Peter, find something coherent to say. You come across as a heckling schoolboy on the sideline.”
What can one say to a liar like you,you have your playbook and you will stick to it like a good little drone.
Lets have a look at those figures again.
Russia – Georgia
Defense budget
$32,99 billion – $583 million
Personnel
641,00 – 26,900
Main Battle Tanks
6,717 – 82
Armoured Personnel Carriers
6,388 – 139
Combat Aircraft
1,206 – 7 (SEVEN)
Heavy Artillery
7,550 – 95
The mighty Georgian Military attacking ‘ittle bitsy Wussia.
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/articles/20080810.aspx
Since the early 1990s, Russia and Georgia have argued over who should control South Ossetia, a Georgian province on the Russian border. Just to the north of South Ossetia, is the Russian territory of North Ossetia. The Soviets often split ethnic groups between two provinces (or “Autonomous Republics”) to make it more difficult for the people to unite in opposition to the Soviet Union. This, among many similar measures, worked. Since the Russians moved in their peacekeepers in the early 1990s, they have issued Russian passports to the South Ossetians and, in effect, annexed the region.
These are the “peacekeepers” who are supposedly protecting the Ossetians from Georgian aggression. The “peacekeepers” some people want us to respect, and in which they find parallels to Kosovo.
Read the whole thing.
“Steady on chum! If you are banking on the US standing by twiddling its thumbs while Putin takes Georgia, then think again.
You tweak the tigers tail at your peril, uncle Sam has..wah wah wah wah wah wah” Cassandra | 11.08.08 – 5:59 pm”
Even NATO aren’t interested in this clown now. I was at first convinced, like you, that the game is far bigger, but it appears Saakashvili is a trigger happy idiot. His attack on South Ossetia can’t be portrayed as “Russian aggression”. If the US had planned the conflict they would have done a far better job. If you think WW3 is going to start for a nut job like Saakashvili I think you’ll be dissapointed. Keep reading your Tom Clancy books though, he seems to have a big following here.
“Steady on chum! If you are banking on the US standing by twiddling its thumbs while Putin takes Georgia, then think again.
You tweak the tigers tail at your peril, uncle Sam has..wah wah wah wah wah wah” Cassandra | 11.08.08 – 5:59 pm”
Even NATO aren’t interested in this clown now. I was at first convinced, like you, that the game is far bigger, but it appears Saakashvili is a trigger happy idiot. His attack on South Ossetia can’t be portrayed as “Russian aggression”. If the US had planned the conflict they would have done a far better job. If you think WW3 is going to start for a nut job like Saakashvili I think you’ll be dissapointed. Keep reading your Tom Clancy books though. He seems to have a big following here.
The Russians have just taken Gori and are on their way to Tbilisi. I’m sure when they find out that these cities aren’t actually in South Ossetia they’ll realise the error of their ways, hold their hands up, say, ‘Whoops, our mistake’ turn around and go back to Russia.
I have to admit, the way the Russians engineered and executed this whole invasion is very impressive. They set that trap, Georgi walked into it and now Georgia is on the verge of being back under Russian rule.
Russia will have the problem of the pipeline if they do take control of Georgia.How long before Georgian separatists blow it up?
“I was at first convinced, like you, that the game is far bigger, but it appears Saakashvili is a trigger happy idiot. His attack on South Ossetia can’t be portrayed as “Russian aggression””
Really,what about the capture of Gori ?
If the Russian aim was to liberate South Ossetia,what the Hell is the Russian Army doing in Gori ?
Oh dear John Bull “wah wah wah”? whats all that about? All I was trying to say is, you may have outsmarted the Euro fools(but then again, my dopey old pussycat cat mishka could outwit the Euromorons)and you may have outwitted NATO but the US is a whole different ballgame, do you really think the US hasnt been planning an attack corridor into Georgia should the need arise? BTW I dont read fiction, history books are a million times better and much more informative!
Cassandra,
Much better to let the declining Russia take Georgia and win itself another Chechnya it which to thrash out its death throes.
Russia has been preparing for this for sometime.
What an elegant turn of phrase on the BBC website right now – Russian troops have entered Georgia from the breakaway region of Abkhazia, as the conflict between the two neighbours appears to be broadening..
Nothing to see here then just a bit of neighbourly disagreement – not an invasion of a sovereign country like Iraq, thank god.
It’s interesting to see how, deep in the beeb’s engine room underneath the NULAB social democratic veneer, the old red Soviet flame still burns bright.
Your BBC – back in the USSR
JRSpins,
Amazing how the entire anti-war left has vapourised.No protest marches,no womyns camps,no human shields,not a student in sight,the Labour Party schtumm,not a peep out of CND,nothing about warfare creating carbon from the greens.
The Comintern did a wonderful job all those years ago.
Well – Russia was “provoked” wasn’t she?
You can’t expect big countries to stand around doing nothing if they’re “provoked”.
They’ve only bombed a few apartment blocks full of old ladies anyway – nothing serious.
Not like those militaristic neocon savages in the White House.
The anti-war left are only opposed to Western war-making. If it’s being prosecuted by people like Russia, then not only it it immune from condemnation, but it’s something to admire.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/comment/columnists/lifestyle-columnists/george-galloway/2008/08/11/china-s-olympic-games-ceremony-shows-us-how-far-the-mighty-have-fallen-86908-20692375/
Well you can’t beat Sky News for impartial reporting. Not only did they report that the Georgian population were being made fearful by unfounded rumours being spread on Georgian TV, but also let on that Saakashvili “claimed to hear planes in the silent sky” before diving for cover. What a photo opp that was.
Of course the BBC led their bulletin with rhetoric from Saakashvili himself. No bias there then.
Whoops – more peaceful fraternal bombing
Hi ya Bully-boy
“John Bull:
“It would seem that Georgian defence spending was right I mean to say the massive Russian invasion would seem to prove that it was prudent to spend money to defend oneself against Russian aggression. …Do you honestly, truly, think that Georgia should not be encouraged in its ‘military ambitions’ Ivan3 | 11.08.08 – 4:35 pm”
Is that the best you can do? To misquote me. That’s pretty weak. You must try better, really. What I actually said was
“Do you honestly, truly, think that Georgia should not be encouraged in its ‘military ambitions’…that is defending itself as a democratic, western looking state against a corrupt, aggressive state which has destroyed freedom of speech, a free press, has political prisoners and murders dissenters, etc., in order to support a fascist leadership?”
So you think it’s wrong to defend yourself? Do you think that it was right for Russia to defend itself against German aggression when it was invaded? It is the same thing.
It is justifiable to DEFEND yourself against an invasion, it was justifiable for Russia in WW2, and it is justifiable in Georgia now.
“No. Since their nationalist ambitions were clearly to retake Ossetia, reunite the country, and then join NATO as one happy family – big error”
South Ossetia is legally part of Georgia. It is not part of Russia. Any state has the legal right to send its military forces into any part of their state. Any state has the legal right to take military action against insurgents. That is international law.
NATO is an organisation with its flaws, any organisation or group has its flaws, but I tell you what petal the members are lot happier today than they where yesterday that for sure. Do you think heroic Russia would have invaded if Georgia was a member? Of course not bullies only attack the weak, and the small.
Since you are so keen on human rights you will obviously condemn in the strongest terms the actions of the Russians who have killed 200,000 people in Chechnya, and at least the same number forced out in Russian ethnic cleansing this accounts to nearly 50 of the total population…..wont you?
Still there are plenty of areas in Russia, who want independence, no doubt you support them all, I mean if they can rig a referendum, or even, (you never know!!!) have a fair one, you will support the liberation and independence of all the following
• Adygea
• Bashkortostan
• Chechnya
• Chuvashia
• Dagestan
• Don Cossackia
• Ingria, Izhoria
• Kabardino-Balkaria
• Kaliningrad Oblast
• Kalmykia
• Karachay-Cherkessia
• Karelia
• Komi
• Kuban Cossackia
• Mari El Northern Ossetia
• Mordovia
• Sami
• Tatarstan
• Udmurtia
• Ural
• Vepsia
• Votia
I mean you are so keen on the rights of self-determination you would support their rights. Who knows, China could grant them all passports and could send ‘peacekeepers’ to defend their nationals against Russian atrocities. The fact that China would gain territory, massive oil, gas, and natural resources would be a happy coincidence.
“The hypocrisy on here belongs to yourself and others who use the dead, the dying, and the misplaced (the ones they acknowledge) only as propaganda tools in their equally unprincipled arguments.”
People are dying now. It is only just that people in a democracy defend themselves and their family’s from being killed by invaders. Georgia posed no threat to its neighbours… Russia does.
There is only one tool here sweet-cheeks and it’s you.
We are entitled to help a democratic state defend itself, but as I’ve said we don’t have to kill anyone. This is lucky. All we have to do is stop buying oil and gas from Russia. No one dies and the new government would be put in place. I mean Russia says it wants regime change in Georgia it is only fair we go for regime change in Russia, don’t you agree?
Ivan3, I answered in the other thread although I don’t know why you posted it twice.
Peter,
I think the fact that the FSB(former KGB/NKVD) has tens of thousands of files that could be extremely embarrasing to many in the UK government,Trades Unions and ‘antiwar/peace movements’! Putin only has to release the names of all those who collaborated withthe USSR during the cold war and it would destroy the left!
Putin has told the UK, stay out and keep your mouths shut or else! How else can you explain the UK silence?
I would love Putin to release the names of all the socialist traitors in the UK who worked for the cold war enemy!
Cassandra,
Putin doesn’t have to bother when the Unions own the Labour Party.Besides look at the history of the cabinet members,some were on the MI5 watch list.Files destroyed post 1997.